Pre-destination???

[Markea]

We see in scripture that none can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them..

Amen.. and we see in the same book that if the Lord be lifted up, that He will draw all men to Himself.

We also see in the gospel that He is that true light, which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

We also see Jesus when He says you did not choose me but I chose you..

Amen, it's after we trust in the Lord, after hearing the word of truth, and after we believe, that HE seals us with His Holy Spirit of promise... ie..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Notice when it was that we were sealed with the Spirit.. it wasn't from before the foundation of the world, or anything like that.. it was after we trusted in Him.. after we heard the truth of the gospel.

We also see where Jesus says all that the Father has given me I have lost not one..If anyone is drawn to Jesus it is the Fathers doing and not our choice..

Yes, we are sealed unto the redemption.. and the gospel is the power of God which is good, and which leads us to repentance.

Then we see that many are called by few are chosen.. So it is the Father who does the drawing it is the Father who does the giving. We are mere humans and the pot in the potters hand..It is all in God for He alone is saviour.. We as humand could never even save ourselves for one minute.. We can't even walk a righteous life without Christ in us. For righteousness is imputed to us..

Amen.. and the scriptures teach us that Christ is His chosen servant.. and that's why we are accepted in Him and in Him alone..

He's the only door.. but all may come through.. as He draws them to Himself.

 

[Iosias]

Is there such a thing as being pre-destined for heaven by God

Yes

do you belief that anyone become saved?

No

 

[LoG]

The grammar makes it pretty clear here that there are some whom God predestines and some He does not predestine. Verse 30 says that those whom He predestines are called, justified and glorified; consequently, those whom He does NOT predestine will not be glorifed so there must be some who are not predestined.

We are living in the time of the Gentiles so according to the Paul the jews are not currently predestined since that branch has been cut off and the the gentiles grafted in.

The Isrealites before Christ came are a good example of what predestination really means. They as a people were predestined to be God's people as a whole. However individually not all attained that status. The parable of the wedding feast is an exellent example which in one short story gives us a clear picture that the King invites many but not all choose to come. It is reaffirmed when the servants went out in the highways and biways inviting all to come. Even of those who did come not all were found worthy in spite of having been drawn/invited.

Calvinists totally agree that a choice needs to be made but they maintain that this choice is made in accordance with God's will and because of God's will. Romans 3 clearly says that none will seek God on their own accord, no one chooses God on their own accord

So then according to Calvinists it isn't really a choice. Those who choose to reject were never drawn in the first place according to them.

I think for this discussion, scripture should be the basis for our affirmations rather than our own experiences.

The OP did not specify that. It is our experiences and witness that confirm the scriptures and validate our faith.

Could you please reference scripture that shows where Esau was offered salvation (in an effectual calling sense) and also where he desperately sought it but God denied giving it to him.

Hebrews 12:
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Iosias]

Why not read these sermons on Romans 9?
Our Approach to the Doctrine of Predestination
Spiritual and Carnal Children
Separation Between Twin Brothers
Founded in God's Good Pleasure Alone
The Righteousness of God's Sovereign Mercy
Of God's Sovereign Mercy
God's Absolute Sovereignty in Predestination
The Potter and the Clay
Who Art Thou, O Man?
God's Drawing and Man's Responsibility
God's Sovereign Dealings
Long-suffering and Forbearance

 

[IamAdopted]

Amen.. and we see in the same book that if the Lord be lifted up, that He will draw all men to Himself.

We also see in the gospel that He is that true light, which lighteth every man that comes into the world.



Amen, it's after we trust in the Lord, after hearing the word of truth, and after we believe, that HE seals us with His Holy Spirit of promise... ie..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Notice when it was that we were sealed with the Spirit.. it wasn't from before the foundation of the world, or anything like that.. it was after we trusted in Him.. after we heard the truth of the gospel.



Yes, we are sealed unto the redemption.. and the gospel is the power of God which is good, and which leads us to repentance.



Amen.. and the scriptures teach us that Christ is His chosen servant.. and that's why we are accepted in Him and in Him alone..

He's the only door.. but all may come through.. as He draws them to Himself.

Markea can they really? Does scripture not tell us that many are called but only a few are chosen? Who is it that does this choosing? For all men may be drawn to Him and we know not whom God has Chosen. This is why we are to lift Jesus up so that all men may be drawn to Him. But still it is God who does the choosing..

 

[Rick Otto]

Amen.. and we see in the same book that if the Lord be lifted up, that He will draw all men to Himself.
>>Amen, all men, not just Jews!

"We also see in the gospel that He is that true light, which lighteth every man that comes into the world."
Yes, amen, lighteth!

"Notice when it was that we were sealed with the Spirit.. it wasn't from before the foundation of the world, or anything like that.. it was after we trusted in Him.. after we heard the truth of the gospel."
>>Notice it was only before the foundation of the world He only decided in only His predeterminate council, who would trust, whom He would seal...

"Yes, we are sealed unto the redemption.. and the gospel is the power of God which is good, and which leads us to repentance."
>>Amen!


"Amen.. and the scriptures teach us that Christ is His chosen servant.. and that's why we are accepted in Him and in Him alone.. "
>>Amen, not in Mary, not in the saints...

He's the only door.. but all may come through.. as He draws them to Himself.

Amen! All, not just Jews!

 

[JessicaRC]

It doesn't mean that God arbitrarily chooses some to be saved and some to be damned.. that's not it at all.

This is a common misconception... God did not choose some to be damned and some to be saved... ALL OF US are damned and by His grace, he saves some of us from damnation.

 

[Rick Otto]

Jessica!

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Hey Fish, I think this is the most debated and argued point of Christianity, and welcome to the site BTW.

Predetermination is a very sticky subject and at the moment I'm up to my eyeballs studying it. The Calvinist view, which many support, to my spirit, greatly contradicts many other teachings of the New Testament and Christ himself. Actually, I don't like any of the views on predetermination that I've found thus far.

I think Luther may have had it right when he implored Christians not to explore the doctrine of predetermination because it was too complex and outside of man's understanding. Instead, Luther suggested we look to Christ and not lose sight of his teachings. In other words, not become entangled in theology that seems impossible to understand.

So, naturally, we study this stuff and become entangled.

Having said all that, I will say I think I may be onto something, and if someone's better versed in the original Greek that Paul wrote Romans in, please correct me. Unless I'm mistaken, the word Paul used in Romans can, and sometimes is, translated as "appoint" and not "destine". If that's the case, then our more recent translations are all terribly incorrect and the whole matter is settled in my opinion. It is one thing to "appoint" someone, it is quite another to set someone's "destiny." I can appoint my daughter to clean her room - it doesn't mean she's gonna' do it.

Take heart, this is one of the great mysteries of the NT. God bless!

That said, Luther did come down firmly on the side of predestination.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If your salvation is dependent on anything but the eternal decree of God, then the distinction between you and a non-believer is laid squarely on your shoulders.

That is not the gospel of grace.

 

[JessicaRC]

If your salvation is dependent on anything but the eternal decree of God, then the distinction between you and a non-believer is laid squarely on your shoulders.

That is not the gospel of grace.

Which is exactly right. And I want my certainty of salvation to rest in God's sovereignty, not because I made a "good choice."

Only God's grace brings salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9- salvation is not by our works)... it has nothing to do with ourselves (we are wretched sinners).

The doctrine of predestination ought to bring us to our knees in humlity and thankfulness for God's soverignty and for our salvation... we should not be trying to claim a part in salvation when scripture clearly states that salvation belongs to the Lord (Psalm 3:8) and that without His drawing, no one would ever seek Him (Romans 3).

All of this, however, does not take away every single person's responsibility to deal with their sin. We (and even myself sometimes) think that God needs to be fair or that He is fair... but we measure this with our standards of fairness. Romans 9 makes it pretty clear that we ought not question the God of the universe.

One thing I think we ALL can agree on, though: regardless of whether or not we believe in predestination and rely on God’s soverignty for salvation or we choose God on our own accord, WE STILL NEED THE GOSPEL TO BE SAVED.

 

[Markea]

Markea can they really?

Can who really..?

Does scripture not tell us that many are called but only a few are chosen?

Absolutely !

Who is it that does this choosing?

Ultimately, it's the Lord of course.

For all men may be drawn to Him and we know not whom God has Chosen.

We do know whom He has chosen..

[bible]Matthew 12:18[/bible]

Christ is the chosen One.. not us... and so God seals those who place their faith and trust in Him..

We're chosen IN HIM... not arbitrarily.. that's unscriptural.

This is why we are to lift Jesus up so that all men may be drawn to Him. But still it is God who does the choosing..

Yes, it is God who ultimately seals those with His Spirit of promise.. and His free gift is offered unto all, and it's upon all those that believe.

God doesn't arbitrarily chose people for salvation.. He saves those who place their faith and trust in His Son.. we're chosen In Him..

 

[Markea]

This is a common misconception... God did not choose some to be damned and some to be saved... ALL OF US are damned and by His grace, he saves some of us from damnation.

It is scriptural that we're all condemned in Adam.. and it's scriptural that all may be justified freely in Christ.

God doesn't arbitrarily save anyone.. He saves those who place their faith and trust in His Son.

This is what pre-destination is.. it means that God decided before the foundation of the world (pre) that any person who trusted in His Son would be adopted into His family.. this is the destination..

IT has nothing to do with certain individuals being selected for salvation while others had no hope.. because it's like you say.. we're all condemned.. and yet all of Adam's race can be justified in Christ.. simply by believing the gospel.

 

[JessicaRC]

This is what pre-destination is.. it means that God decided before the foundation of the world (pre) that any person who trusted in His Son would be adopted into His family.. this is the destination..

Here's the thing... Romans 8:30 says: Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This makes it very clear that ALL those who are predestined, are called, justified and glorified (not just some of them). Consequently, there must be some who are predestined and not others because in the end, he only glorifies those who are predestined and non-believers are not glorified with Jesus.

we're all condemned.. and yet all of Adam's race can be justified in Christ.. simply by believing the gospel.

This is true... but why or how do we believe the gospel? Is it because we seek it out and believe it on our own accord or is it because God, who knew we were dead in our sins opened our eyes to Himself because He knew we would never seek him on our own (according to Romans 3, anyway)

 

[Markea]

Here's the thing... Romans 8:30 says: Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This makes it very clear that ALL those who are predestined, are called, justified and glorified (not just some of them). Consequently, there must be some who are predestined and not others because in the end, he only glorifies those who are predestined and non-believers are not glorified with Jesus.

This is all absolutely correct.. obviously.. because it's what the word of God says.. and notice that it's speaking in present tense.. ie, those He also glorified.. although this isn't realized yet in all those that are saved.. because Romans 8 says that we wait for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..

Ephesians 1 makes it clear that this is our destination.. as adopted children of God through Jesus Christ.. ie, we're accepted in Him.. and Ephesians 1:13 tells us who these are.. and why they are saved...

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

This is true... but why or how do we believe the gospel?

Because the gospel IS the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes IT.. for His words are spirit and life..

Is it because we seek it out and believe it on our own accord or is it because God, who knew we were dead in our sins opened our eyes to Himself because He knew we would never seek him on our own (according to Romans 3, anyway)

That's right.. the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes it.. and it goes out into all the world.. just as He is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world.

 

[IamAdopted]

Can who really..?



Absolutely !



Ultimately, it's the Lord of course.



We do know whom He has chosen..

[bible]Matthew 12:18[/bible]

Christ is the chosen One.. not us... and so God seals those who place their faith and trust in Him..

We're chosen IN HIM... not arbitrarily.. that's unscriptural.



Yes, it is God who ultimately seals those with His Spirit of promise.. and His free gift is offered unto all, and it's upon all those that believe.

God doesn't arbitrarily chose people for salvation.. He saves those who place their faith and trust in His Son.. we're chosen In Him..

LOL Sorry Markea.. This post was in response to the predestination. LOL.. I was speaking about even though we lift Christ up and He draws all men to Him that not all men that He draws to Him will be Chosen.. For Scripture says many will be called but few chosen.. So as We lift up Christ to the unsaved we do not know whom God has chosen but we are commisioned to preach and Lift HIm up anyway.. I sure hope this makes sense.. LOL

 

[Markea]

LOL Sorry Markea.. This post was in response to the predestination. LOL.. I was speaking about even though we lift Christ up and He draws all men to Him that not all men that He draws to Him will be Chosen.. For Scripture says many will be called but few chosen.. So as We lift up Christ to the unsaved we do not know whom God has chosen but we are commisioned to preach and Lift HIm up anyway.. I sure hope this makes sense.. LOL

I understand that.. although it's not as though some people cannot be chosen, because any person can be chosen simply by placing their faith in trust in Christ, who is the chosen One.

 

[JonF]

Hebrews 12:
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Given the context of the 11-15 it is clear these verses aren’t talking about salvation, but rather Esau’s lack of righteousness and defilement. Look at verse 18 “For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest”. The “for you” let us know that Paul is making a comparison between Esau and believers with respect to defilement. The fact that Paul is comparing how Esau can become defiled with how the elect can’t become defiled (in the sense that Esau did) let us know that there is something fundamentally different between Esau when he still had his birth right and the elect. Almost like he was destined to lose it. Verse 23,24 lets us know why Esau is different than elect – because we have Christ as the Mediator of the new covenant.

The gist: Paul describes how Esau becomes defiled, and then in the next verses he basically says “But this can’t happen to you” talking to Christians. This lets us know that Esau never really had what you claim he lost.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is scriptural that we're all condemned in Adam.. and it's scriptural that all may be justified freely in Christ.

God doesn't arbitrarily save anyone.. He saves those who place their faith and trust in His Son.

This is what pre-destination is.. it means that God decided before the foundation of the world (pre) that any person who trusted in His Son would be adopted into His family.. this is the destination..

IT has nothing to do with certain individuals being selected for salvation while others had no hope.. because it's like you say.. we're all condemned.. and yet all of Adam's race can be justified in Christ.. simply by believing the gospel.

Umm,... what isn't arbitrary about that? I only ask 'cause I know a guy who knows a guy who doesn't trust in Jesus.(iI's true, they're out there!)
I don't see how those who DO trust Him, aren't "certain individuals", tho.

In fact, I can't imagine how anything in Creation could be UNcertain to an Omniscient, Omnipotent Creator, who in His determinate council, knows the number of hairs on our heads, & when a sparrow falls. He isn't merely clairvoyant about random chance, fixing a busted Creation, He knew what He was doing, before He did it.

 

[Easystreet]

Hey Fish, I think this is the most debated and argued point of Christianity, and welcome to the site BTW.

Predetermination is a very sticky subject and at the moment I'm up to my eyeballs studying it. The Calvinist view, which many support, to my spirit, greatly contradicts many other teachings of the New Testament and Christ himself. Actually, I don't like any of the views on predetermination that I've found thus far.

I think Luther may have had it right when he implored Christians not to explore the doctrine of predetermination because it was too complex and outside of man's understanding. Instead, Luther suggested we look to Christ and not lose sight of his teachings. In other words, not become entangled in theology that seems impossible to understand.

So, naturally, we study this stuff and become entangled.

Having said all that, I will say I think I may be onto something, and if someone's better versed in the original Greek that Paul wrote Romans in, please correct me. Unless I'm mistaken, the word Paul used in Romans can, and sometimes is, translated as "appoint" and not "destine". If that's the case, then our more recent translations are all terribly incorrect and the whole matter is settled in my opinion. It is one thing to "appoint" someone, it is quite another to set someone's "destiny." I can appoint my daughter to clean her room - it doesn't mean she's gonna' do it.

Take heart, this is one of the great mysteries of the NT. God bless!

My take on Romans 8

24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?

A. Most would agree that "in hope we have been saved" would mean the same as "salvation is by faith in Christ" As Paul speaks to the believer here he simply makes a statement as to how they became believers.

25. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Our Victory in Christ 26. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words; 27. and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.

28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

B. Remember in verse 24 Paul reminds his readers how they were saved. In that they are saved Paul here in verse 28 is encouraging them with the words of that verse. Notice the addresses the believer as "those who love God, . . . . . called according to purpose."


C. The next verse is where a lot of debate occurs. Lets put it in sequence as Paul does.

1. God foreknew something that is the question we have to answer what is the one thing God foreknew_________ "For those whom He foreknew" points to those in verse 28 that love God which points to verse 24 of which we are told are the ones who have "hope in Christ" thus salvation.

2. Notice that what was predestined follows "foreknew".

those who in hope were saved
those who now are the ones loving God
are those who God foreknew

Foreknow must point back because all that follows hinges on that.



29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

The order

1. Salvation verse 24
2. Loving God verse 28
3. Foreknew those in verse 28 who were saved according to verse 24
4. As a result of verse 24 they are now loving God and God states that He foreknew this and that the reason for what follows is because (1) they did hope in Christ and (2) they are now loving God

5. All that follows is as a result of what has happened not the reverse.

30. and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

D. For us to understand the mind of God. God's ways are explained to us sequentially.

There are two models of Salvation basically speaking:

man receives Christ
God's foreknowledge know this and they are declared elect from the past in Christ

man is arbitrarily picked or randomly picked for salvation and made to believe and all others are not picked and must split hell wide open.

31. What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? 32. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33. Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34. who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37. But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us