This bugs me...the chosen people

[JEBofChristTheLord]

The modern Western mentality, alas, is very, very narrow.

ALL THE WORLD IS CHOSEN, EVERY PERSON WHO EVER LIVED.

God chose us to live, to be happy, all of us, if he exists.

Otherwise, it is not a God, maybe some bad spirit.

God has caused me to believe that the following words are true:

Matthew 22:14
"For many are called, but few chosen."

Matthew 20:16b
"For many are called, but few chosen."

 

[vegjesus]

IMO, God loves all His children equally

 

[visionary]

IMO, God loves all His children equally

His children do not love Him as much as they should, some more than others, and some willing to anything the Father asks. You want to become God's favorite, then do as He asks.

 

[Nimrauko]

Ummm the Jews are the chosen people. Chirst wasnt a Muslim, or a Budhist. He was jewish. The Jews were the chosen people, they were called into the covenants. The followers of christ were jewish and they observed jewish law.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Ummm the Jews are the chosen people. Chirst wasnt a Muslim, or a Budhist. He was jewish. The Jews were the chosen people, they were called into the covenants. The followers of christ were jewish and they observed jewish law.

The true parentage of Christ is God, not Abraham. If the true parentage of Christ were Abraham, He would have been a man of sin.

Most, not all, of the first-decade followers of Christ were of Jewish ancestry. But they broke a great many Jewish laws after the Christ took them, because according to the Lord, after He took them, their true parentage ceased to be Abrahamic, and became God, like His.

His children do not love Him as much as they should, some more than others, and some willing to anything the Father asks. You want to become God's favorite, then do as He asks.

Rather a good point. If you look at the meaning of the word "grace", as in the phrase "saved by grace", you will find that "grace" means "favor". Human beings are given favor by God first because He chooses to do so, and not because of merit. But God also gives favor in response to our behavior.

 

[CountedWise]

God did not so much choose them as a people but as the "chosen" descendent's of Abraham. They were chosen by God to keep God's promise that He made to Abraham. They are descended from Abrahams' son Isaac. That is the covenant of the OT. God chose Abraham, and granted him the covenant because he asked for it.
Since they failed to keep the covenant, a new covenant was made on our behalf by one who was sinless. Through Him the covenant is kept, and he shall be our judge. The new covenant will be kept with those who pass judgement through the Lamb of God, and God shall accept them on His behalf. The new covenant is for all. You cannot come to the Father except through Him.
His Law is this; Love thy neighbor, Love thine enemy. Worship the Father, for only He is truly Good.

 

[visionary]

what comes first.. chicken or egg? If you are an evolutionist, you have no answer. If you are a creationist, you will say the chicken.

Choosen is the same thing, God created a nation from the seed of promise in Abraham. Choosen for a purpose, not only the seed of the Messiah will come from this line of humanity, but also they were entrusted with the Laws of God.

Why? well if you were in God's shoes and only a few people on the earth are looking up to you, who would you choose to do the task?

 

[Henaynei]

The true parentage of Christ is G-d, not Abraham. If the true parentage of Christ were Abraham, He would have been a man of sin.

G-d said Messiah is the sone of David. His physical body is the fruit of David's physical lineage, thus also though Abraham.

Most, not all, of the first-decade followers of Christ were of Jewish ancestry. But they broke a great many Jewish laws after the Christ took them, because according to the Lord, after He took them, their true parentage ceased to be Abrahamic, and became G-d, like His.

while commonly taught this is not entirely accurate. It is true that the vast majority of the followers of the Way for the first *several* decades were Jewish, they did NOT violate any of the "Jewish Laws" unless you are equating "Laws" with "traditions." They are not the same. Neither Yeshua, nor His followers, not even Sh'aul (Paul) ever violated the Laws G-d gave the Jewish people

Just before he was executed in Rome .....
Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, "Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers (the traditions of the Jews, much less the Law), yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans."

Phil 3:...... I [Paul] more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuted the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

It is true that Yeshua, being G-d, did clarify * a very few* of the traditions that the Jewish leadership had about some observances, but He NEVER violate the Law.

He also said we are all to obey what the Pharisees taught .....

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

while commonly taught this is not entirely accurate. It is true that the vast majority of the followers of the Way for the first *several* decades were Jewish, they did NOT violate any of the "Jewish Laws" unless you are equating "Laws" with "traditions." They are not the same. Neither Yeshua, nor His followers, not even Sh'aul (Paul) ever violated the Laws G-d gave the Jewish people

If you study the word translated to "tradition" in the New Testament, you will find that it means "law" or "commandment".

The Lord broke no laws of God; but He broke many laws of the Jews.

He encouraged people to eat without washing hands; and washing hands before eating, is a law of the Pharisees.

He encouraged people to glean on the Sabbath; and gleaning on the Sabbath, is forbidden by the laws of the Pharisees.

He encouraged people to listen to Him, and believe the things God said in Old Covenant Scripture, without interpretation through the rabbinical counsels, or Talmud; and reading the Word of God without Talmud, is a violation of the laws of the Pharisees.

J.E.B.

 

[Henaynei]

If you study the word translated to "tradition" in the New Testament, you will find that it means "law" or "commandment".

This is what I found when looking up the meaning of the word translated "tradition" in the Writings of the Apostles (aka NT)

Strong Number: 3862 = paradosis - is used 13 times in the NT and is not once translated "law" or commandment"

1. giving up, giving over
2. the act of giving up
3. the surrender of cities
4. a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
5. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
6. of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence

The Lord broke no laws of G-d; but He broke many laws of the Jews.

I agree in the broad sweep of what you say here, but not in the details. For instance Yeshua broke none of the Laws of G-d, but He corrected a few of the traditions that had grown up around the efforts of the Jewish nation to keep those Laws.

He encouraged people to eat without washing hands; and washing hands before eating, is a law of the Pharisees.

you are close but not exactly... the tradition that Yeshua was addressing was that of Netilat Yadiim. This sprang from the commandment of HaShem for the priests to wash before handling the sacrfices. When the first Temple was destroyed there no longer were sacrifices and the Jewish people emulated the command to the priests as they brought remembrance of the Temple sacrifices into their homes and considered the family table an "altar." Thus the head of the house washes his hands, even today, before picking up the bread and blessing G-d for providing it. What had gone awry was an additional tradition that unclean demons were picked up in the market place when one went about making ones purchases and by consuming without washing one was consuming demons.. and that by doing the ritual of hand-washing one could wash the demons away. It is to this Yeshua is referring in

Matthew 15:
17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth goes on into the stomach, and is sent out as waste? 18 But the things which come out of the mouth come from the heart; and they make a man unclean. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, the taking of life, broken faith between the married, unclean desires of the flesh, taking of property, false witness, bitter words: 20 These are the things which make a man unclean; but to take food with unwashed hands does not make a man unclean.

The point here is not about not washing one's hands before eating (any mother will tell you to do that) the point is about proper understanding of how one becomes unclean....

He encouraged people to glean on the Sabbath; and gleaning on the Sabbath, is forbidden by the laws of the Pharisees.

again it is the traditions and not the Laws ... gleaning for one's own consumption was not forbidden by Torah, working in the fields was.... but the Pharisees had made it so in order to protect the unwary and unthinking from violating the Torah command to not work on Shabbat by gleaning more than was allowed for one's self.

He encouraged people to listen to Him, and believe the things G-d said in Old Covenant Scripture, without interpretation through the rabbinical counsels, or Talmud; and reading the Word of God without Talmud, is a violation of the laws of the Pharisees.

J.E.B.

there was no Talmud at Yeshua's time - the Talmud was not written until many hundreds of years after the Jewish people were dispersed out of Israel by the Romans into lands around the world....

Additionally Yeshua actually commands us to listen to and follow the things taught by the Pharisees ...

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." In other words don't do it with the wrong heart attitude

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I have learned that you are right concerning the word "tradition" versus the word "law", and I am grateful!

The Talmud was written down first in 200 C.E., but its contents were on the table at that time.

There is also much confusion among those who call themselves Jews today. When I was such a one, "Jewish Law" referred to everything in Talmud plus much more; and the Sanhedrin did rule, once.

J.E.B.

 

[visionary]

My fellow Christians, let us not remain silent or apathetic this time around. Too few of us recognize the fact that our Saviour, Yeshua (Jesus) is a Jew, and "Salvation is of the Jews". If it were not for the Jews there would be no Jesus, no Christianity, no Bible. Israel remains the "apple of the His eye." We must be as devoted as Ruth, and intercede for her as Esther. If we do not stand with Israel and the Jewish people now, we will surely perish with them. Speak up!

 

[visionary]

I don't believe that the Body of Christ will ever be what God has created it to be without the Jews taking their rightful place. We must wake up! God is trying to create the One New Man.

 

[pleasestudy]

The Jews were never the chosen people. Judaism is a religion.

Paul says the promises and covenants were with Abraham and his 'seed' meaning one, Jesus, not many, meaning Israelites, and that the Law, which came about over 400 years later, didn't change any of that.
Galatians 4.

Peter says that the Jews stumbled over Jesus but that those who believe in him are the chosen, a royal priesthood, the people of God.

We have got to get over this 'the Jews are chosen' mentality for a number of reasons for these are key:
1) 'Jews' is a term no one is able to pin down; it has many definitions depending on who you ask.


2) Jesus said that while the Israelite Jews of his day were descendants of Abraham they were not his children; their father was the devil. The devil because he is a liar and they were lying about him and about who they were. They thought genetics made them 'chosen'.


3) Without faith it is impossible to please God. God has always looked on the heart condition on each person.
No one 'made it' through genetics or group membership, but by a one by one heart submission to God.


4) Jesus fulfilled the law. Gentile believers were not told to become like Talmudic Jewry; in fact, Paul, a former Pharisee, could not stand 'Judaizers' who tried to get Gentile Christians to become circumcised, observe days, etc. He said he wished they'd go all the way and well....


Ummm the Jews are the chosen people. Chirst wasnt a Muslim, or a Budhist. He was jewish. The Jews were the chosen people, they were called into the covenants. The followers of christ were jewish and they observed jewish law.


Read Galatians 4, the whole chapter. See who the covenants were given to, according to Paul. The followers of Christ during the time the Bible was written were Jews and Gentiles and the Gentiles did not observe Jewish law. Jews tried to force them to but Paul made sure (with all his might) that didn't happen. There was a meeting held over it and the leaders in Jerusalem (former Jews) confirmed that the Gentile Christians were under no obligation to behave as Jews.

Paul tells us that in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.

So, where you are coming from with all this Jewish guilt is beyond me.

 

[Henaynei]

Are 'the Jewish people' the converted from all races who hold to a religion which has Jesus Christ boiling in hot excrement in hell currently as their teaching?"

sorry, but you have your religions mixed....

it is an Islamic teaching about boiling in excrement of one's enemies ... Judaism does not hold tho the existence of a "hell" as Christians do, or as Muslims do.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

sorry, but you have your religions mixed....

it is an Islamic teaching about boiling in excrement of one's enemies ... Judaism does not hold tho the existence of a "hell" as Christians do, or as Muslims do.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Not 'enemies', H.; the enemies of the Lord. And I have heard such teaching from Talmudic scholars. According to them, there is the "world to come" and "Gehenna", and in Gehenna, the damned will be tortured in various boiling substances for eternity. The analogy is precise; Gehenna was also a place in the world, near Jerusalem, where all kinds of refuse, including human, was burnt.

 

[pleasestudy]

Is this inaccurate?:

[SIZE=+1]1 The Talmud said Jesus was, along with Balaam and Titus, one of the three greatest enemies of Judaism (Gittin 56b-57a). The New Testament confirms that the Pharisees considered Christ demon-possessed (John 8:48), a charlatan empowered by the devil (Matt. 12:24), a deceiver (Matt. 27:6), a blasphemer (Jn. 10:36), and having an unclean spirit (Mk. 3:30). The Talmud says He was a bastard, son of adulterous Mary (Sanhedrin 106b). He was hung on the eve of Passover because He was a sorcerer and apostate (Sanh. 43a). He was a fool who fell down and worshipped a brick (Sanh. 67a). He was executed by stoning, burning, decapitation, and strangling (Sanh. x.2:90a). Jews are encouraged to lecture against Christ (Sanh. 106b). Christ is in hell, wallowing in boiling hot excrement (Git. 56b-57a).[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1][/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The Talmud recommends persecution of Christians. Christians are heretics (Abodah Zarah 16b), apostates (Shabbethai 116). Christians may be legally thrown into a pit to die (AZ, 26b). Christians deserve death for observing the Sabbath (even though they observe the Noahide laws) (Sanh. 58b) and studying the Old Testament (Sanh. 59a). Christianity is an unforgivable sin, seducing Jews to idolatry (AZ 17a). The testimony of a Christian is unworthy to be admitted to a Jewish court (Shulshan Aruk, Hoshen Mishpat 34,31). Jews are forbidden to return a lost article to a Christian (HM 266,2). Matthew, Luke, Nicodemus, and Thaddeus were executed as heretics ( Jewish Encyclopedia, "Jesus," page 171). Jews should rejoice, dress in white, and eat, drink, and be merry at the death of a Christian. They should hate a Christian with utmost hatred and consider him an enemy (Semahot ch. 2, p. 35).[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1][/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The Zohar sanctions killing of Gentiles, including Christians. "Take the life of the Kliphoth [Gentile and Christian] and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him." (Sephar or Israel 177b) "The people of the earth are idolaters, and it has been written of them, 'Let them be wiped off the face of the earth.'" (I 25, Pranaitis translation, "The Talmud Unmasked," p. 80) "When these shall be exterminated, it will be as if God had made heaven and earth on that day." (I, Bereshith, 25b) "At the moment when the Holy One, blessed be he, will exterminate all the goyim of the world.the Lord alone will appear great on that day." (Sec. Vayschlah, folio 177b, de Pauly translation) "It is certain our captivity will last until the princes of the Gentiles who worship idols are destroyed." (I, 219, Pranaitis, p. 80) "In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations, and those who killed off people who worship idols" (I, 38b, 39a)[/SIZE]

If so, please point out where the inaccuracies are and correct them with the actual text.

Thanks.

 

[pleasestudy]

And the difference between the teaching of Judaism re: Jesus and Islam is that Islam regards Jesus as a great prophet and reverse him as one of the greatest prophets, but not divine.

Judaism, on the other hand, sees him (if they admit he existed) as a deceiver, liar, sexually immoral, condemned false prophet.

Quite a difference. Neither is Biblical, but one is surely much kinder (so to speak).

 

[Nimrauko]

Visionary, what is 'Israel and the Jewish people?'

Are you talking about the state of Israel, whose boundaries aren't even close to what some fantasize as 'Israel' of the Old Covenant? Are 'the Jewish people' the converted from all races who hold to a religion which has Jesus Christ boiling in hot excrement in hell currently as their teaching?"

I'm sorry..I can't be supportive of either as a Christian. And I find no Biblical basis for doing so.

Who are those in Revelation to whom Jesus refers as "those who claim to be Jews, but they are not...but they are the synagogue of Satan'? Do you know?


Here's what Paul said about 'Israel and the Jewish people' in I. Thessalonians 2:


12 We testified to every one of you, that you would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
14 For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews,
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; 16 Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.



Now, just who was Paul speaking about?


No one is the 'apple of God's eye' who has his Son burning in hot excrement in hell as part of their teaching.

Nor is the promise in Genesis 12 applicable to 'Jews'; it is made to Abraham.

I think we need a crash course in Galatians 4.

And more crash courses on how the words 'everlasting' and 'forever' are used in Scripture. Read what God said to Eli when he took away the honor of the priesthood from his family.


What in the world do you mean by 'if we do not stand with Israel and the Jewish people we will perish with them' and where do you find it in Scripture?

I will not stand with a country who regularly kills Palestinians and Lebanese and who has rejected Jesus Christ, not only as Messiah, but has made him into a wicked, sexually immoral and deceptive false prophet.

If you'd like, then stand with them. I'll stand with those who proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord.

I will have no fellowship with the works of darkness but will rather reprove them.

FYI:

We do not convert people. I am not a messianic christian. I am a jew. You as a christian dont believe in Israel or the jews, or whatever you said. That is sad. Read the bible again.


So far as Law Verses Tradition. Law is Torah. The Talmud just helps explain it and apply it to our lives.

Thank you who defend us, and I hope those who dont believe in us and israel wake up.

Secondly, Bashing Israel and my brothers and sisters. Not cool. We dont see christ as the messiah, becuase he didnt fulfill the prophecy (It no where in the Tanakh says he will be the son of god) We believe in god. We follow his precepts. We came first, without us you wouldnt have christianity. As far as perverting Christ, we dont do that. Your implications are startling and speak to a bigger problem, that you have to fix. I pray you wake up from the dream world you are in and look at the reality.

 

[Nimrauko]

And the difference between the teaching of Judaism re: Jesus and Islam is that Islam regards Jesus as a great prophet and reverse him as one of the greatest prophets, but not divine.

Judaism, on the other hand, sees him (if they admit he existed) as a deceiver, liar, sexually immoral, condemned false prophet.

Quite a difference. Neither is Biblical, but one is surely much kinder (so to speak).

Ok the Talmud is not from our generation. Secondly we aknowledge he existed, but he is not the son of god. You forget friend, he was a jew. We dont have the concept of hell as you christians do. There is no hell. The truly evil are destroyed. The rest go to heaven. But alas I am not here to fight with you