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Evolutionary apologetics thread

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Jase

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There was a thread started in the Apologetics forum about bones providing evidence to evolution:

http://www.christianforums.com/t535...on-of-humans-need-help-figuring-this-out.html

I imagine this thread will get moved here soon, although it would be nice if it didn't since none of the people who are participating in that thread come to the OT forum.

I'm not making much of an impression, so just thought i'd throw it out to some of our more knowledgeable biologists here. It's so frustrating to see people so proud of ignorance. :sigh: I can't imagine God would actually want us to ignore all the world's evidence just to hold on to our fragile Biblical interpretation. God wouldn't make us the most intelligent species on Earth if he didn't want us to use our brains.
 

Mallon

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If their position is one of fundamentalism, Jase, there is little you can do. There are sects of people out there who believe the world is flat and forms the centre of the sun's orbit "because the Bible says so", but we feel little need to address them, let alone take them seriously. Evolutionary theory, like heliocentric theory, has proven itself, as evidenced by the VAST majority of natural scientists who accept it and put it to practice every day. If the evolution-deniers wish to be left behind in the world of natural science, then that's their perogative. Science marches forward. They can do their own thing if they want, but don't feel like you have to take them seriously every time they espouse a view that stems from a surface reading of Scripture. It's fruitless trying to convince people with evidence when they share AiG's mindset that "any evidence that contradicts a literal interpretation of Genesis must be rejected."
 
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juvenissun

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There was a thread started in the Apologetics forum about bones providing evidence to evolution:

http://www.christianforums.com/t535...on-of-humans-need-help-figuring-this-out.html

I imagine this thread will get moved here soon, although it would be nice if it didn't since none of the people who are participating in that thread come to the OT forum.

I'm not making much of an impression, so just thought i'd throw it out to some of our more knowledgeable biologists here. It's so frustrating to see people so proud of ignorance. :sigh: I can't imagine God would actually want us to ignore all the world's evidence just to hold on to our fragile Biblical interpretation. God wouldn't make us the most intelligent species on Earth if he didn't want us to use our brains.
Think it this way:

Most YE scientists are trained the same way as the OE scientists. They DO KNOW the argument of evolutioin.

Don't you ever think that they might know something else AFTER the OE education, which makes them abandon the OE ship to the seemingly unreasonable YE?

As OE scientist, you should have curiosity to explore this problem, but not just close your eyes to a strange feature. They know everything you know. You might not know everything they do.
 
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Mallon

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Most YE scientists are trained the same way as the OE scientists. They DO KNOW the argument of evolutioin.
I have yet to meet a single YEC who has demonstrated an understanding of evolution. They may know of it, but they do not understand it. Which is why we spend most of our time here combating strawmen and generalizations, rather than discussing the intricacies of evolutionary theory, such as the validity of event-pair cracking or the use of biostratigraphic characters in forming cladograms. That's where the battles are fought in the world of science. Here we just bicker.
 
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hithesh

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Don't you ever think that they might know something else AFTER the OE education, which makes them abandon the OE ship to the seemingly unreasonable YE?

I've asked numerous times of YEC apologists, to tell me what they believe evolution is, and so far I've only received one response: "Show me a monkey breeding a nonmonkey".

I've always tried to ask for the YE opinion on certain evidence for evolution, and typically the questions goes by unanswered.

When I see Kirk Cameron pull out a picture of a frog with bull horns (bullfrog so he says to be funny), to ask where is this transitional form. How can I not assume that the YEC is absent of certain understandings.

I have long sought the YEC response to the genome relationship among species, but once again the question goes by unanswered.

When a young-earther poses a question to the TE or the just plain evolutist, you find numerous individuals willing to respond to your every question, though we are in the minority, but the favor is not returned.

I know, that the YECs who do not answer the question, do not do so to intentionally ignore me, I know they do so, because they do not know.

When I approach AiG, the same problem exist there as will, they ignore the question, hoping they do not come up often, or they discover some contrived way of answering in, which is not an answer at all.

Every so often I visit an Atheist forum, and every so often an unsuspecting believer comes on to question evolution, several of the unbelievers are quite proficient in the sciences, so it's not long before the responses, and evidence piles up, to answer such questions, and it is not long before the unsuspecting believer vanishes as quickly as he came.

Of course afterwards the unbelievers pass virtual high fives among each other, and pass drinks throughout the bar, as if evolution wins one for unbelief, because of the poor believer, with a faulty understanding of how God works.

No evolution, is not a tool to prove that God does not exist, but the creationist tell the unbelievers it is so.

Kirk Cameron tells me creation, tells us that God exist, but if I were to look at creation to find God, I would tell you he does not exist, God exists in timelessness, in the eternal light that has illuminated us throughout time. God exists prior to the begining. Within us and among us.

Build a house on creation, and the wolf comes and blows it away.
 
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Jase

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I have yet to meet a single YEC who has demonstrated an understanding of evolution. They may know of it, but they do not understand it. Which is why we spend most of our time here combating strawmen and generalizations, rather than discussing the intricacies of evolutionary theory, such as the validity of event-pair cracking or the use of biostratigraphic characters in forming cladograms. That's where the battles are fought in the world of science. Here we just bicker.
Correct. In fact, the thread in question that I linked too is nothing but YEC's claiming that evolution is the imagination of men because monkeys don't turn into humans, cows don't turn into horses, and dogs don't give birth to cats.

Certainly not what I consider "understanding" evolution.
 
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theFijian

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Correct. In fact, the thread in question that I linked too is nothing but YEC's claiming that evolution is the imagination of men because monkeys don't turn into humans, cows don't turn into horses, and dogs don't give birth to cats.

Certainly not what I consider "understanding" evolution.

They 'understand' the professional Creationist version of it perhaps. What I continue to find disturbing is that people in teaching authority in churches and Creationist ministries would propagate such blatant lies and untruths about evolution. I think most of the seasoned Creationists around here would know better than the people in that apologetics thread.
 
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Jase

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They 'understand' the professional Creationist version of it perhaps. What I continue to find disturbing is that people in teaching authority in churches and Creationist ministries would propagate such blatant lies and untruths about evolution. I think most of the seasoned Creationists around here would know better than the people in that apologetics thread.
What's really bad is what i've been arguing over in that thread now with Dave01 . He continually claims that we are not Christian because we don't believe the 6 day reference is in fact literal. He said theistic evolutionists cannot be Christian because they don't take Genesis literally. I pointed out to him how much of the Bible he doesn't take literally like 4 corners of the earth, circle of the earth, Joshua's long day etc., and he rehashes tired apologetics showing that it is in fact a metaphorical interpretation. He doesn't get the hypocrisy.

I should probably just ignore him, because my anger is getting the better of me. I may not be a strong believer atm, but I get deeply offended when people like him condemn other Christians to Hell because they accept evolution and an old universe.
 
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juvenissun

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I've always tried to ask for the YE opinion on certain evidence for evolution, and typically the questions goes by unanswered.


There are certainly a lot of evidences of evolution. However, it is NOT THE POINT. The study of evolution take a lot of time. But the logic behind it is very simple. In most cases, nothing could be conclusive from the study. Tons of questions could be thrown toward ANY evolution study. The study of evolution is an endless, dead alley. It does not lead to any answer on questions of origin.

I have thrown out two questions about evolution: one is the loss human hair and the other is the origin of bone. I don't think anyone could "prove" the origin on these two issues. Anyone could make suggestions. Paleontologist only makes a more informative, and more rigorous suggestions. But it is still only a suggestion.

If you have a favorate discovery or knowledge about a case of evolution, then let's talk about it. I am no paleontologist. But I think I can argue that your evolution example DOES NOT disprove creation. Take this as a challenge from a YE believer.
 
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Mallon

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The study of evolution is an endless, dead alley. It does not lead to any answer on questions of origin.
Evolutionary theory does not seek to answer any questions regarding the origin of life or of the universe. You are asking the wrong questions of evolution. Newtonian physics cannot tell us much about where we came from, either, but you do not hold it in such disdain, do you?
I have thrown out two questions about evolution: one is the loss human hair and the other is the origin of bone. I don't think anyone could "prove" the origin on these two issues.
No one can "prove" anything in science (though science can disprove claims). Science is not in the business of providing proof; it is in the business of explaining phenomena substantiated by evidence. So you are right when you say paleontologists (or any scientist, for that matter) make "rigorous suggestions", but I hope you would agree that a rigorously researched and supported hypothesis is better than a non-rigorous one.
If you have a favorate discovery or knowledge about a case of evolution, then let's talk about it. I am no paleontologist. But I think I can argue that your evolution example DOES NOT disprove creation. Take this as a challenge from a YE believer.
Nobody here will would argue that evolution "disproves" creation. I accept creation, and I accept evolution. Young Earth Creationism certainly has been disproven, though. You might not believe or accept that, but the scientific community at large agrees on that much. Thus, it is not up to scientists to defend evolution, but it is up to the YECs to make a convincing scientific case for Young Earth Creationism if they want it to be taken seriously as a scientific concept.
 
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hithesh

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I have thrown out two questions about evolution: one is the loss human hair and the other is the origin of bone. I don't think anyone could "prove" the origin on these two issues. Anyone could make suggestions. Paleontologist only makes a more informative, and more rigorous suggestions. But it is still only a suggestion.

I think in the original thread that asked these questions, that you did not understand what you were looking for. TEs provided you numerous responses and evidence to provide you the answer for your question, but I just don't think you understand what form the answer should take.

The other thing which I should say, is that I accept evolution, I don't believe in it.

The question of Genesis to me, has long been one of allegory, so it's easy for me to accept evolution, because it is a question of no consequence to my belief.

I have never found the appeal in constructing Noah ark, to see how it would accommodate the vast number of species, or the quest to find the wood it was built on. I have no interest in finding the brimstone of Sodom and Gomorra.

What has always captured my heart, is God's offering after the flood, and Abraham's pleading to spare the cities if there are 50 innocent people, then 45, then 30, then 20, then 10.

Someone might tell me that the proof of the existence of God is in wood, and I will say no, it is in Abraham's plea.

If you feel that some how accepting evolution is in conflict with being a Christian, you are more than welcome to make your case.

God bless.
 
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juvenissun

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I think in the original thread that asked these questions, that you did not understand what you were looking for. TEs provided you numerous responses and evidence to provide you the answer for your question, but I just don't think you understand what form the answer should take.

What I like to see is that someone points a section of chromosome (may be not the right description) of ape to me and say: this is responsible for the fur of ape. And also show me that human either has or has not that chromosome. I also like to see a species of fossil known as boneless, but has something that indicates the appearance of prototype bone. I don't think this type evidence would ever be discovered.

The other thing which I should say, is that I accept evolution, I don't believe in it.

I appreciate yours and Mallon's arguments/explanations. Evolution is a troublesome word. I believe in evolution too if it only means a gradual change of form, or such change of anything. But I think the word Evolutionism includes the meaning of changing life from from one species to another species (or from "family" to family? I could never get that clear to me). I do not know much detail of such study. But I don't think any of such change has been demonstrated satisfactorily. To put this in a simple sentence, I think the "missing gap" exists everywhere and, to my opinion, it is the most serious problem to the theory of evolutionism. If we could not find a single "complete" set of evolutional change between any two "kinds" of lives in the past 100 years, then I would say it does not exist.
 
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Mallon

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What I like to see is that someone points a section of chromosome (may be not the right description) of ape to me and say: this is responsible for the fur of ape. And also show me that human either has or has not that chromosome.
I'm sure it could be done. The human and chimp genomes have now been mapped, though I don't know whether those specific gene functions have been identified yet. It certainly wouldn't be impossible to do, given that we have previously identified homologous lengths of DNA in humans and chimps (a la ERVs).
I also like to see a species of fossil known as boneless, but has something that indicates the appearance of prototype bone. I don't think this type evidence would ever be discovered.
Actually, I already provided you this evidence in another thread re: the evolution of bone. Early jawless fishes have a dermal covering that looks to be a primitive bone of sorts.

I do not know much detail of such study. But I don't think any of such change has been demonstrated satisfactorily. To put this in a simple sentence, I think the "missing gap" exists everywhere and, to my opinion, it is the most serious problem to the theory of evolutionism.
Since you readily admit to not knowing much about evolution (not "evolutionism"), I would suggest that the "missing gap" is in your mind, and not in the theory itself or in the evidence used to support it. There are many fossils exhibiting the type of transitional morphologies you seek between "kinds" (whatever that means), if only you would open yourself up to looking at them. The reptile-mammal transition is one such example.
 
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juvenissun

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Even we have mapped the genes, it would be a quantum leap to understand the complete functions of any single gene. Even you think the possibilitty is finite, and could be exhausted sometime in the future. But think the physics and chemistry also have only finite variables. Yet we still do not understand many functions of their combinations.

Actually, I already provided you this evidence in another thread re: the evolution of bone. Early jawless fishes have a dermal covering that looks to be a primitive bone of sorts.

No. It is not what I expected. Whatever type of bone found in the jawless fish is still about the jawless fish, which had some type bone to start with. I like to see some fossils of jawless fish (not other fishes) that has no bone at all. Even if such thing could be found (which "proves" this fish changed from no bone to bone), this single example still could not answer the original question(why doesn't the jawless fish get the bone at the beginning and need to be evolved?)

There are many fossils exhibiting the type of transitional morphologies you seek between "kinds" (whatever that means), if only you would open yourself up to looking at them. The reptile-mammal transition is one such example.

I know what you are talking about. I saw them in textbooks. I did not pay attention to the details. However, I believe there HAS TO be a lot of uncertainties in the interpretation. The nice presentation of the intermediate forms are just a show for non-expert like me. And, I have only seen this type of nice demo on amphibian to reptile. In comparison, the change from fish to amphibian can not be so demonstrated. Have you ever asked Why?

As someone already said: paleontology is a science of description and classification. Interpretion is only a convenient thought and reasonable story. All we know in paleontology is not qualified enough to argue against ideas in creationism
 
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gluadys

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I like to see some fossils of jawless fish (not other fishes) that has no bone at all. Even if such thing could be found (which "proves" this fish changed from no bone to bone), this single example still could not answer the original question(why doesn't the jawless fish get the bone at the beginning and need to be evolved?)

I am not sure if any fish had no bones. Cranial bones appear before jaw and limb bones, and may have appeared before anything identifiable as a fish. So you may have to look at a different animal than fish to get to the beginning of bones.



And, I have only seen this type of nice demo on amphibian to reptile. In comparison, the change from fish to amphibian can not be so demonstrated. Have you ever asked Why?

Here is a nice series in one feature at least in the fish-to-amphibian transition:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=752
 
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gluadys

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Evolution is a troublesome word. I believe in evolution too if it only means a gradual change of form, or such change of anything. But I think the word Evolutionism includes the meaning of changing life from from one species to another species (or from "family" to family? I could never get that clear to me).

You are hitting on two of the reasons there is so much confusion about evolution.

First "gradual change of form" vs. "changing from one species to another".

Yes, evolution includes both. But note that it is not limited to "changing from one species to another". It also includes "gradual change of form".

Many people mistakenly dismiss the gradual change of form as "not evolution". But it is evolution, and it is the gradual change of form that may lead to new species. In short, you can get gradual change of form without new species. But you also get new species through gradual change of form.

After all, if you keep gradually changing the form, you eventually arrive at something different enough from the original form that it can properly be called a new species.

So gradual change of form and changing to a new species are tied together as cause and effect. The gradual change of form is the cause, and one possible effect of that change is a new species.


Second, changing from one species to another vs. one family to another.

Evolution is always, always, always about changing from one species to another. (And always to a new species that did not exist before. You don't get a change from one existing species to another existing species.)

Are you familiar with the Linnean classification of life forms? It is not used as rigidly as it used to be, but it starts with the basic unit of species, groups similar species into genera, then similar genera into families, similar families into orders, similar orders into classes, similar classes into phyla and similar phyla into kingdoms such as the plant kingdom, the fungus kingdom, the animal kingdom.

You needn't memorize that list. The important thing is that every classification above species is simply a larger and larger group of species. These classifications have been devised by scientists for the purpose of easy reference to particular species and groups of species.

Nature knows nothing of the dividing lines biologists impose on life forms for the purpose of classification. No more than light rays know of the human classification of wave frequencies into colours.

The only distinction between life forms that exists in nature is the species---and even that distinction is not always clear at times.

So evolution is always about change in species and the development of new species. Because that is the only place in nature where evolution can happen.

You can never get direct evolution from one family to another or one order to another.

And here lies the problem. Most non-scientists know plants and animals by common names that do not correspond to scientific species names. Common names correlate more closely to higher taxonomic categories like family and order which are actually groups of similar species.

So when a non-scientist wants to see evolution producing new species, they are thinking of something like a hippo becoming a horse. Not possible, because these are species in different groups of species and evolution can never plop a new species into a different group than its immediate ancestor.

What can happen and what biologists believe did happen is that at one point there was a species which was ancestral to both groups. The species split into two separated populations, and each population continued to gradually change form as all species do.

However, each population changed in different ways and kept changing in different ways. Well, you know what happens if you come to a fork in the road and you take one way and your friend takes another way. You end up at very different destinations. So over time, one population became horses and the other populations became hippos.

Note that this does not mean that horses became hippos. Nor does it mean that hippos became horses. Rather it means that some descendants of the ancestral species became horses and other descendants of the ancestral species became hippos.

This is called "cladistic" (branching) speciation, and is the most common type of speciation, though there are others as well.

The problem with most anti-evolution thinking is that it is linear--trying to follow a straight line from one kind of life form to another. However, it tries to follow from the tip of one branch to the tip of another branch.

The only way to connect branches is not from tip to tip, but by tracing each branch back to the larger branch they are growing from. It is only at the common point of origin that the two branches touch each other. Once they have separated there is no way a new twig on one branch can produce a leaf on the other branch.

So all new species are new to the group the ancestor is already part of. They are never new additions to a different family or order or class. Nor are they ever a transition between families or orders or classes that were established in the past.

The only place you can have a transition between orders or families or any classification higher than species is at the point of common origin of the two groups when only a single species existed. And the descendants of that species divurged and multiplied more new species until the two divergent groups became identified as belonging to different orders or families or whatever, after the fact.

This is one of the characteristics about evolution that make it testable. If you have reason to believe that two groups have a common origin, you can make predictions about what the common ancestor looked like, when it lived and what changes had to occur in each descendant group to get to the characteristics of the living descendants.

Then you can check to see if the fossil record shows the sort of animals that must have existed in the transitional period, with the right sort of characteristics and in the right time frame. So far, we have not found a fossil that seriously compromises the evolutionary scenario.
 
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juvenissun

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So far, we have not found a fossil that seriously compromises the evolutionary scenario.

Thank you for taking time to explain the idea of species evolution and the cladistic speciation. So, if you will, I like to focus on the process which makes a gradual appearence of a new species. I would appreciate if you could introduce one of the best example on this process. Of course, be mercy on the use of biological jargons. I think if you use one of the best example you know, you could make a lay person like me to understand. Of course, my goal is trying to identify a hole in your good example so the evolution process would be in question. It would be OK if you give a few links as assigned readings, so it may save some of your typings.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Mallon

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Even we have mapped the genes, it would be a quantum leap to understand the complete functions of any single gene.
So then you are essentially admitting to asking a question that you feel could not possibly be answered to your own satisfaction (given that we are a long way from understanding the complexity of polygenic phenotypes). Forgive me for thinking that sounds a bit disingenuous on your part.
No. It is not what I expected.
Again, forgive me, juvenissun, but your expectations do not follow from a well-rooted understanding of evolutionary theory. You wanted a precursor to bone, I gave you one, and now you're shrugging it off because it's not what you expected??? Again, a bit disengenuous, methinks.
Whatever type of bone found in the jawless fish is still about the jawless fish, which had some type bone to start with. I like to see some fossils of jawless fish (not other fishes) that has no bone at all.
No such fish exist since fish must have a skeleton by definition. The closest thing you can get to being a boneless chordate is something like the lancelet, which has a notochord, but no skeleton:
lancelet.jpg

Incidentally, many early fish (the chondrychthyans) have a skeleton of cartilage, but no bone. Does that suit your scenario well enough?

Even if such thing could be found (which "proves" this fish changed from no bone to bone), this single example still could not answer the original question(why doesn't the jawless fish get the bone at the beginning and need to be evolved?)
I already answered this question in the previous thread on the evolution of bone. I hope you will go back and find it, since it pains me to have to repeat myself when I have already directly addressed your very own question previously.

I know what you are talking about. I saw them in textbooks. I did not pay attention to the details. However, I believe there HAS TO be a lot of uncertainties in the interpretation. The nice presentation of the intermediate forms are just a show for non-expert like me. And, I have only seen this type of nice demo on amphibian to reptile. In comparison, the change from fish to amphibian can not be so demonstrated. Have you ever asked Why?
As someone already said: paleontology is a science of description and classification. Interpretion is only a convenient thought and reasonable story. All we know in paleontology is not qualified enough to argue against ideas in creationism
I myself am a palaeontologist, and I laugh along with the rest of the palaeo community when a self-described "non-expert" who professes to not "pay attention to the details" makes the fallacious claim that palaeontology is not a science and does not make testable predictions. All I can suggest is that you read a book on the matter, because you clearly have little understanding of the field. How can you be so critical of something you readily admit to knowing little about? Your logic is fallacious and bears a specific label: argumentum ad ignorantium. I apologize if the YECs find this "insulting" as per their discussion in the subforum.
 
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juvenissun

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Forgive me for thinking that sounds a bit disingenuous on your part.

I am not an paleontologist. So I ask dumb question (to start with) and I made claims which I do not think it would stand very well and am waiting for corrections. Why is it ingenuous?

Incidentally, many early fish (the chondrychthyans) have a skeleton of cartilage, but no bone. Does that suit your scenario well enough?

This is better. The question followed is: Did this fish species develop real bone from the cartilage at later time?

when a self-described "non-expert" who professes to not "pay attention to the details" makes the fallacious claim that palaeontology is not a science and does not make testable predictions.

I never said paleontology is not a science. You should apologize to me by stuck it into my mouth.

I did say paleontologist makes "suggestions" (less than "prediction"). However, I don't think any paleontological prediction is "testable". Please give me your best example on how does one "test" the validity of a paleontological prediction other than just trying to dig out more fossils. That is why I said that paleontology is simply the discovery and the analysis of data, but lack of prediction/varification process. It is simply the nature of the study.
 
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