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Evolutionary apologetics thread

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gluadys

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juvenissun

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Thanks for the education. I will try to put down a few learnings about mutation and speciation as you have told me. I also use some examples that I could understand better for illustrations.

- A species could mutate a lot, but not becoming a new species. So the rate of mutation is not necessary a timing mechanism for speciation
- A species could mutate just a tiny bit, but ended into a new species. These species may look alike, but they do not mix in breeding. A example is horse and donkey. Right?
- There are several other factors/processes individually, or combined with mutation to cause speciation. But which one would eventually cause speciation is not known.
- Genus Homo only had a few species even it has existed for 2-4 m.y. Currently Homo Sapiens is the predominate existing
species in the genus.

If the above understandings are correct, then they have the following consequences or implications.
- Even we suspect a few factors of speciation, we do not know which one caused the separation. We do know it happened
afterwards by various methods.
- When speciation does not take place, we do not know why.
- Two species could look very similar. But they do not interbreed. Sometimes the difference could be only detected at the level of DNA sequence
- Genus Homo is not a very successful one as most of its species were extinct. But the species Sapiens becomes predominant not only over others in the genus, but over other kingdoms.
- Species Homo Sapiens mutates at a certain rate. But the effect of mutation is not known.
- "Race" among species Sapiens is not due to mutation.

The above conclusions/implications could be further simplified into one: We do not know what cause speciation. But we do can tell different species.

All the above says "creation" to me.
 
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gluadys

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Thanks for the education. I will try to put down a few learnings about mutation and speciation as you have told me. I also use some examples that I could understand better for illustrations.

- A species could mutate a lot, but not becoming a new species. So the rate of mutation is not necessary a timing mechanism for speciation

It has an impact, but in many cases it is not the only factor. However, you can get a new species through mutation alone.

- A species could mutate just a tiny bit, but ended into a new species. These species may look alike, but they do not mix in breeding. A example is horse and donkey. Right?

Yes, and they might be even more similar in appearance. Sometimes it is very difficult for human scientists to identify which species an individual belongs to.

- There are several other factors/processes individually, or combined with mutation to cause speciation. But which one would eventually cause speciation is not known.

Let's be careful here. It is not that the cause of speciation is unknown. It is that sometimes there are multiple causes. But we can still know what they are. It is not a case of having to choose just one of several potential causes as "the" cause. All the factors have an impact.

Perhaps you are thinking of speciation as something that happens at a particular moment. That is not the case. Often populations separate slowly and gradually so there is a long period in which interbreeding still occurs, but on a less and less regular basis.

So we have multiple factors interacting over time, and speciation is a gradual result of all of them acting together. But that is not at all the same thing as saying we don't know the cause(s).

- Genus Homo only had a few species even it has existed for 2-4 m.y. Currently Homo Sapiens is the predominate existing
species in the genus.

Not the predominant existing species. The only existing species. Btw it is not unusual to have only one existing species in a genus.

If the above understandings are correct, then they have the following consequences or implications.
- Even we suspect a few factors of speciation, we do not know which one caused the separation. We do know it happened
afterwards by various methods.

We do more than suspect some factors. We know what factors lead to speciation. Any factor which leads to isolating a population (in any sense) has the potential to lead to reproductive isolation eventually. Reproductive isolation is the indicator of speciation. Mutation and other factors work together to produce reproductive isolation. We know what those factors can be, and study of specific cases can tell us which factors were operative in those cases.


In the island lizards, the factor operating along with mutation was geographic isolation. You will note that on one island there were two populations of the same species each adapted to a different habitat on the island. However, although the adaptation to different environments led to establishing different variants of the species, the lack of isolation prevented speciation.


- When speciation does not take place, we do not know why.

On the contrary, we do know why. We can point to the factors that maintained gene flow and prevented isolation.

- Two species could look very similar. But they do not interbreed. Sometimes the difference could be only detected at the level of DNA sequence

Right. I remember reading of several species of squirrels which scientists could not tell apart even with blood analysis. They only figured out they were different species, because each was infested with a different species of tick and the various tick species could be differentiated.

- Genus Homo is not a very successful one as most of its species were extinct. But the species Sapiens becomes predominant not only over others in the genus, but over other kingdoms.


Well, that is a pretty subjective definition of success. By other criteria the genus is very successful. I don't know what you mean by "predominant ... over other kingdoms" though. Last I looked humans were still animals, not plants or fungi.

- Species Homo Sapiens mutates at a certain rate. But the effect of mutation is not known.

In general the effect is diversity. Often it is possible to determine the effect of a particular mutation. But there are 6 billion base pairs the human diploid genome. That is a lot of ground for molecular biologists to cover.

So there are probably specific mutations that have not even been found yet, and many that have not been studied yet.

But with study we can know the effect of a mutation.

- "Race" among species Sapiens is not due to mutation.

"race" is a sociological construct. In scientific terms the human species has no races.

The above conclusions/implications could be further simplified into one: We do not know what cause speciation.

A false conclusion based on some incorrect inferences.


All the above says "creation" to me.

Perhaps you would like to explain why.
 
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juvenissun

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Here is a question on the dynamic nature of the mutation and speciation:

When mutation on a particular individual (Mutant_Am) of a species happened and it meets the required conditions to become a different species, then Mutant_Am stops to reproduce with the rest of the species, and is trying to find another mutated individual of the opposite sex (Mutant_Af) who happened to mutate the same way at the same time. So they could start to reproduce all over again on a brand new species. There are several obvious factors and perhaps many more non_obvious factors involved in this dynamic scenario. I think these factors would render the chance of a new species, which developed in such a scenario versus a simply dead Mutant_Am to a hopelessly small number.

If we factor this small number into the rate of speciaton, then any possible speciation would probably take 1e+8 years of time or longer. (What are keywords to search articles that addressed this concern?)
 
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gluadys

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Here is a question on the dynamic nature of the mutation and speciation:

When mutation on a particular individual (Mutant_Am) of a species happened and it meets the required conditions to become a different species, then Mutant_Am stops to reproduce with the rest of the species, and is trying to find another mutated individual of the opposite sex (Mutant_Af) who happened to mutate the same way at the same time. So they could start to reproduce all over again on a brand new species. There are several obvious factors and perhaps many more non_obvious factors involved in this dynamic scenario. I think these factors would render the chance of a new species, which developed in such a scenario versus a simply dead Mutant_Am to a hopelessly small number.

If we factor this small number into the rate of speciaton, then any possible speciation would probably take 1e+8 years of time or longer. (What are keywords to search articles that addressed this concern?)

That is why we do not see this scenario in sexually reproducing species.

The only cases I know of in which a single mutation led to a new species are in bacteria (e.g. the nylon bug http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm) which reproduce asexually and don't need to seek a mate.

Reproductive isolation in sexually reproducing species is usually a more gradual process involving several generations, so there is no problem finding a compatible mate.

The only sort of reproductive isolation I recall occurring in one generation is the hybridization + polyploidy route which often occurs in plants (and rarely in animals as well). See here for some examples:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Polyploidy.html

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/polyploidy.html
 
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Deamiter

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Here is a question on the dynamic nature of the mutation and speciation:

When mutation on a particular individual (Mutant_Am) of a species happened and it meets the required conditions to become a different species, then Mutant_Am stops to reproduce with the rest of the species, and is trying to find another mutated individual of the opposite sex (Mutant_Af) who happened to mutate the same way at the same time. So they could start to reproduce all over again on a brand new species. There are several obvious factors and perhaps many more non_obvious factors involved in this dynamic scenario. I think these factors would render the chance of a new species, which developed in such a scenario versus a simply dead Mutant_Am to a hopelessly small number.

If we factor this small number into the rate of speciaton, then any possible speciation would probably take 1e+8 years of time or longer. (What are keywords to search articles that addressed this concern?)
As gluadys said, when talking about speciation, this type of double mutation is never an issue (though in the case of asexually reproducing organisms a single mutation in ONE individual can create a new species). It would be difficult if not utterly impossible to precisely define the point at which two populations are sexually isolated usually because they are geographically isolated for many generations. That is not to say that identifying a new species is just guesswork. Once sexual isolation has occured the two populations will continue to diverge so the differences between the two species will only increase with time.

It's a very common misconception that two organisms must have the same mutation at the same time to produce a new species. What happens in evolution is that two populations become slowly and increasingly incompatible (and/or unwilling to interbreed). The exact generation of speciation may be debated but the result usually won't be.

A very good analogy is mixing paint. If you get a small drop of blue in a bucket of yellow while mixing the paint, you won't notice the difference. If you slowly drop small drops of red into one yellow bucket and small drops of blue into another there will be a point at which the buckets no longer contain yellow paint. Identifying the precise drop (or in evolution, mutation) may be impossible, but you know that if you give it more time and more drops the buckets will only diverge more so at some point it just makes sense to label them differently.

And you're quite right that it'd be nearly impossible for two organisms to have exactly the same mutation(s) at the same time. That's why we can be very sure that the two populations won't turn out the same once they're sexually isolated. Just like the buckets of paint won't turn the same color because their drops are different colors, the two populations will only become more different because we can be certain that their mutations are not identical.
 
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