Why do Calvinists....

[GrinningDwarf]

Bradfordl,
I almost get the feeling that Boxmaker is trolling.
You have answered his questions over and over and over and over again and his responses evade and elude going past simple logic. It's troll like. Maybe he's doing this just to get a rise?? I'm just going to stop responding. I guess I give up.

I'm not so sure about this. We get trolls in here all the time, but Boxmaker's tone is different. IMHO, he sounds more like I did over the two years I genuinely struggled to get a real understanding of what Calvinism was all about. True...the deck was stacked in my mind against Calvinism, but I took Sproul at his word that my then-current understanding of Calvinism was not correct, and I wanted to refute the real Calvinist position, not the caricature. Boxmaker's questionings sound a lot like the margin notes I have in several books by Sproul and Martin Luther as I was working this all out.

That's the only reason I've stayed on this topic.

 

[UMP]

I'm not so sure about this. We get trolls in here all the time, but Boxmaker's tone is different. IMHO, he sounds more like I did over the two years I genuinely struggled to get a real understanding of what Calvinism was all about. True...the deck was stacked in my mind against Calvinism, but I took Sproul at his word that my then-current understanding of Calvinism was not correct, and I wanted to refute the real Calvinist position, not the caricature. Boxmaker's questionings sound a lot like the margin notes I have in several books by Sproul and Martin Luther as I was working this all out.

That's the only reason I've stayed on this topic.

OK.
I understand.
It's just so frustrating.
It makes me want to scream!

 

[Boxmaker]

OK.
I understand.
It's just so frustrating.
It makes me want to scream!

That works both ways, Ump. I get frustrated too because I see my beliefs the same way you see your beliefs. I cannot understand why you don't see things the way I do so I keep trying different ways to explain them. You respond with differnt ways of expalining your beliefs.

And through it all, learning happens. I have a better understanding about what Calvinism is. I have a much clearer understanding of what predestination is and is not and how that is different than preordination.

Conversations with Grinning Dwarf, you and Cyg have been very bennificial. Conversations with others have been less helpful.

 

[UMP]

That works both ways, Ump. I get frustrated too because I see my beliefs the same way you see your beliefs. I cannot understand why you don't see things the way I do so I keep trying different ways to explain them. You respond with differnt ways of expalining your beliefs.

And through it all, learning happens. I have a better understanding about what Calvinism is. I have a much clearer understanding of what predestination is and is not and how that is different than preordination.

Conversations with Grinning Dwarf, you and Cyg have been very bennificial. Conversations with others have been less helpful.

Just do me a favor, concentrate more on what the bible says than what we say. We are not giving opinion, we are trying to explain what the Bible says in a very simple logical way. I think if you pray that God show you the truth of His word no matter how contrary to your earlier imbedded beliefs, he will show you. I used to believe just like you, but I forced myself to trust the Bible as truth no matter how apposed to everything else I was hearing. Please pray that God show you the simple truth.

 

[bradfordl]

Conversations with others have been less helpful.

You don't converse too often with me, Box. Most times you just skip right past my posts. But that's OK. There's one of two things happenning here: you're either trolling as UMP thought, just for hardened apostate kicks, or your flesh (that desires some merit in salvation) is wrestling with the Spirit (Who will eventually force you to bow the knee and acknowledge God's complete, meticulous sovereignty over all things), and we all know what the outcome of that battle will be.

 

[Boxmaker]

It always interests me that folks use the Revelation 3 passage as their defense for choosing - reading the chapter makes it extremely clear that Christ is talking to a church, an existing part of His body. Even so, He's reminding them to mend their ways - it's a call to repentance, not a call to salvation.

Actually, the verse I was thinking of is not in Revelations. Jesus spoke it.

Matthew 7:6-8 (New International Version)

Ask, Seek, Knock
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Actually, the verse I was thinking of is not in Revelations. Jesus spoke it.

Matthew 7:6-8 (New International Version)

Ask, Seek, Knock
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

I knew which one ya meant, box!!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

An update on the book I told Boxmaker I'd read...

I'm on page 112 in chapter 8. So far, the book's theme seems to be very similar to Jerry Bridges' Transforming Grace. Bridges is a Reformed writer who works with Navigators, and he's the one responsible for opening me up to the Puritans!

The common theme seems to be "You were saved by grace, now live by grace!" I havn't noticed anything really dynamic in George's book...but it's entirely possible I havn't noticed it because I've already worked it through with Bridges' book, and that one was so life changing for me. (I didn't know it at the time, but Transforming Grace was an early step on my road to Reformed theology!)

One thing about Classic Christianity....on several occaisions, George has said things like "The New Testament is so blatant and bold in its proclamations of who we are in Christ that it boggles the mind." That is certainly a true statement...but when George says it, and I don't know why it is, I keep waiting for a Word of Faith spin to it. I havn't seen it yet, and maybe it won't show up, but it's like I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

[UMP]

An update on the book I told Boxmaker I'd read...

I'm on page 112 in chapter 8. So far, the book's theme seems to be very similar to Jerry Bridges' Transforming Grace. Bridges is a Reformed writer who works with Navigators, and he's the one responsible for opening me up to the Puritans!

The common theme seems to be "You were saved by grace, now live by grace!" I havn't noticed anything really dynamic in George's book...but it's entirely possible I havn't noticed it because I've already worked it through with Bridges' book, and that one was so life changing for me. (I didn't know it at the time, but Transforming Grace was an early step on my road to Reformed theology!)

One thing about Classic Christianity....on several occaisions, George has said things like "The New Testament is so blatant and bold in its proclamations of who we are in Christ that it boggles the mind." That is certainly a true statement...but when George says it, and I don't know why it is, I keep waiting for a Word of Faith spin to it. I havn't seen it yet, and maybe it won't show up, but it's like I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Have you read A.W. Pinks, "The Sovereignty of God" ?
If so, what do you think of it?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Have you read A.W. Pinks, "The Sovereignty of God" ?
If so, what do you think of it?

Indeed, I have. It's a great book. Like I've mentioned several times in this thread, Sproul's Chosen By God is spiritual aikido; Pink's The Sovereignty of God is fight club!!

I read TSoG after I'd become convinced of the Reformed truths; I wouldn't have been able to stand it before.

 

[UMP]

Indeed, I have. It's a great book. Like I've mentioned several times in this thread, Sproul's Chosen By God is spiritual aikido; Pink's The Sovereignty of God is fight club!!

I read TSoG after I'd become convinced of the Reformed truths; I wouldn't have been able to stand it before.

What would you recommend that I read that would raise the hair on my arms as did Pink's "The Sovereignty of God"?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

What would you recommend that I read that would raise the hair on my arms as did Pink's "The Sovereignty of God"?

I dunno if I can guarantee any hair raising tales, but try The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen. It's a defense of the 'L' in TULIP. And it's a strong defense!!! There are a lot of so-called 'four-point Calvinists' who should read it.

For a new look at the pastor's job, try Richard Baxter's The Reformed Pastor. An interesting note on that one...here is how the book is organized:

Chapter 1. The Oversight of Ourselves
Section 1: The Nature of this Oversight
Section 2: The Motives to this oversight

Chapter 2. The Oversight of Our Flock
Section 1: The Nature of this oversight
Section 2: The manner of this oversight
Section 3: The motives to this oversight

Chapter 3. Application
Section 1: The use of humiliation
Section 2: The duty of personal catechising and instructing the flock particularly recommended

Chapter 3 is very interesting! Based upon the popular views of Puritans, which Baxter was, how do you suppose he might use humiliation? Well...suprise, suprise...it ain't with the flock!! Here's how that chapter is organized:

1. On account of our pride

2. Our not seriously, unreservedly, and laboriously laying out ourselves in our work
(1) By negligent studies
(2)By dull, drowsy preaching
(3)By not compassionating and helping destitute congregations

3. Our prevailing rtegard to our worldy interests, in opposition to the things of Christ
(1) By temporizing
(2) By too much minding worldly things
(3) By barrenness in works of charity

4. Our undervaluing the unity and peace of the church

5. Our negligence in exercising Church discipline

That's right...the humiliation is the pastor's!!

Section 2 in chapter three, on catechizing and instructing the flock, is also key and takes up about the last third of the book

 

[xapis]

I'm gonna give UMP some due props here...

As an Arminian skeptic (with lots of questions and on the verge of recognizing Reformed soteriology as true) I read TSoG after UMP so demandingly recommended it to me.

Was it harsh and hard to swallow at times? Yes. But looking back, I now see that as a tipping point for me that helped seal the deal on pushing me over the edge of the fence and into the fields of truth. It gave me the swift kicks in the spiritual rear that I needed to knock off the remaining scales from my eyes... so it definitely had a positive impact on me.

I see GD's point and I know this book would not have the same effect on just anyone. It will turn many off and make their spurning of Calvinism even more vitriolic.

The Holy Spirit had already been moving me in this direction and my reading of the Bible (testing these doctrines) and having conversations with folks here were what got me to the aforementioned fence in the first place. And I thank God that He used UMP to recommend TSoG to me because it made me see Him in a whole new light! God IS sovereign and NOTHING can compare to the greatness of His grace!

Shalom.

 

[UMP]

I see GD's point and I know this book would not have the same effect on just anyone. It will turn many off and make their spurning of Calvinism even more vitriolic.

Another little tidbit about Pinks book you may or may not know. When Pink published the book it did not sell very well. One wrote to Pink and said, "I just wish I could kill you." In which Pink replied, "It is not I you wish to kill, but God."
WOW !!

I'm very happy that I was able to play a part in your seeing more clearly, in this way of course:

1 Corinthians 3:
[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Still, it gives me a very comforting feeling to know that God is using me, a wretched sinner, in some fashion

 

[UMP]

I dunno if I can guarantee any hair raising tales, but try The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen. It's a defense of the 'L' in TULIP. And it's a strong defense!!! There are a lot of so-called 'four-point Calvinists' who should read it.

I got through Packers intro, but reading Owen makes my brain HURT real bad

For a new look at the pastor's job, try Richard Baxter's The Reformed Pastor.

Ok. I'll try.

 

[Murdock]

Why do Calvinists insist that God is the direct author of all things evil? As I understand the belief, God is responsible for every action in a persons life. If true, every rape, every homosexual act, every murder, robery and every other act that is against the OT law was pre-programmed by God for His Glory.

Can you explain to me haw God making people break the laws He installed bring glory to Him?

Because God is both omniscient and omnipotent. That means that everything comes under his power. He controls everything, including Satan.

God doesn't make people break the laws. We were all born with a sinful and rebellious nature and are ruled by the ruler of the air, who is Satan, unless God calls us out of the world and sends us his Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only force that has power over Satan.

Romans 11:32 and 9:11-25 tells us why God bound us all over to disobedience. Romans 1:18-31 clarifies why God allows people to be disobedient.

But the whole key is that no one knows if he is being drawn y God, so we are all responsiblefor our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

 

[Murdock]

Why do Calvinists insist that God is the direct author of all things evil? As I understand the belief, God is responsible for every action in a persons life. If true, every rape, every homosexual act, every murder, robery and every other act that is against the OT law was pre-programmed by God for His Glory.

Can you explain to me haw God making people break the laws He installed bring glory to Him?

All you have to do is read the bible to see who is in control of the universe. And it's not Satan.

God doesn't cause or commit sin, he allows Satan to rule us because as he tells us in Romans 11;32, "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all." No one would seek God if he isn't in pain. No sin, no grace.