Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

If this be the case, you MUST concede that God has done more for you than your neighbors!

Can't you say the same thing? Has not God done more for the elect than the non-elect?

It seems that He has (is my hope for you)....and God has EVERY RIGHT to do so!!

Agreed. He is God.

 

[UMP]

Can't you say the same thing? Has not God done more for the elect than the non-elect?

God has every right to do as He pleases. No argument.

 

[Boxmaker]

Therefore, Bob would have room to boast and that is diametrically apposed to the word of God.

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 9:
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I would say that if Bob boasts then Bod does not understand, and may not have, salvation. But, as I understand works as used in Ephesians, accepting Christ as you savior does not qualify as a work. Works are external things that people see. Salvation is enteranl and between you and God.

 

[GodsElect]

over 600 posts to this guy and he is still blind as a bat! I really think Boxmaker's name should be changed to BOASTMAKER! you have really no idea at all what kind of warnings there are against people boasting about their oh so good choices. Your choices are filthy self centered, self pleasing, scum before God. We come on here to try to give the good news that Christ did ALL things for His people and there really is nothing to accept about it. It's already FINISHED! and all you want to do take just that little piece of credit for yourself and putting the title of "free will" on it when you have no idea what you are talking about. Scripurally speaking. I'm wiping the dust off of my feet and moving on. The pearl has been casted too many times before the trampling feet of BOASTMAKER! Have fun, this guy is as hard as a rock on a mountain and all the effort put into helping him understand the fullness of the scriptures and the absolute power of an almighty God is like chipping rock away from a mountain....pointless! He is in God's hands to be dealt with. Leave him be. I think this thread should be locked!

 

[bradfordl]

But, as I understand works as used in Ephesians, accepting Christ as you savior does not qualify as a work.

Really? Hmmm. So then why would Paul say:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isn't he implying that a faith that was not a gift of God but was "of yourselves" would be a work?

 

[Boxmaker]

Really? Hmmm. So then why would Paul say:
Isn't he implying that a faith that was not a gift of God but was "of yourselves" would be a work?

No. Paul is saying that there is no work (feeding the hungry, caring for widows, etc.) that can earn your way into heaven. Faith is a GIFT from God. It is a gift that can be refused. (I don't know why, but people refuse it.)

 

[GodsElect]

There is only one reason why Boastmaker cannot see eye to eye with the word of God, and that is because the sovereign God of heaven and earth has not given this man the understanding to understand the plain truth of scripture. WE ALL GAVE THIS MAN THE TRUE GOSPEL and yet I believe that his heart is yet still hardened to the TRUTH. All we can do is pray for his soul. I think all would agree.

Well Boastman, have a good time boasting about your so so so good choice all the way unitl the end. You are so much smarter than people who refuse a free gift from God. You deserve at least some of the glory for the salvation of your pitiful soul. Man you're good dude! Your the only person in the history of time who has ressurected himself from spiritual death because of your awesome choice and excercising that oh so powerful free will! Man I wish everyone could be like you, so everyone could just will themselves right into eternal paradise.

Hail to the oh so powerful FREE WILL of Boastmaker!!! He is so goooooood! WOW!

 

[Boxmaker]

There is only one reason why Boastmaker cannot see eye to eye with the word of God, and that is because the sovereign God of heaven and earth has not given this man the understanding to understand the plain truth of scripture. WE ALL GAVE THIS MAN THE TRUE GOSPEL and yet I believe that his heart is yet still hardened to the TRUTH. All we can do is pray for his soul. I think all would agree.

Well Boastman, have a good time boasting about your so so so good choice all the way unitl the end. You are so much smarter than people who refuse a free gift from God. You deserve at least some of the glory for the salvation of your pitiful soul. Man you're good dude! Your the only person in the history of time who has ressurected himself from spiritual death because of your awesome choice and excercising that oh so powerful free will! Man I wish everyone could be like you, so everyone could just will themselves right into eternal paradise.

Hail to the oh so powerful FREE WILL of Boastmaker!!! He is so goooooood! WOW!

This shinning example of Christian love, patience and caring was brought to you by God, the Great Predestinator of whatsoever happens.

 

[GodsElect]

It is a gift that can be refused. (I don't know why, but people refuse it.)

Well maybe if you searched the scriptures of truth you would find your answer about why people refuse God... Here I'll show you, even though you probably wont understand...

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

from the English standard version...

1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

What! Natural man, born in sin, does not accept the gifts of God by natural default! Born with natures that are SPIRITUALLY DEPRAVED! That is why people are God rejectors since the day they are born.


NOT BOASTMAKER THOUGH! he was "made in the image of God" and by his definition of that is he wasn't spiritually depraved at all. He was born without the effect of being spiritually discerned that everyone eles was born with. The fall of Adam had NO effect whatsoever on BOASTMAKER! So that means he is somthin REAL SPECIAL! He was born with a spirit to please God and all he had to do is choose to do so! Boastmaker is gonna stand before God and get a holy pat on the back! Boy I wish I hadn't been born with a depraved spirit so I could be just like Boastmaker and have such a wonderfully awesome, oh so powerfull free will that breaks the curse of the fall of Adam just by merely exercising that powerful will of man!


But what do I know Iam just a self-denying, silly old calvinist who dont know near a much as you boastmaker!

 

[GodsElect]

This shinning example of Christian love, patience and caring was brought to you by God, the Great Predestinator of whatsoever happens.

PATIENCE!?@!!

yeah, 600+ posts to YOU and you think I have not any patience! You're crazy!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I am free to choose between vanilla and chocolate. I prefer vanilla but there are days when I want chocolate. I would almost never choose strawberry. I can choose chocolate, vanilla or nothing. My choice is influanced by many things but the final choice is mine. I am free to choose from what is available to me.

But you're totally missing the point. He said if you love vanilla but hate chocolate, you would choose vanilla every time, by your own free choice.

Scripture tells us what the unregenerate heart will choose every time, by it's own free choice. The unregenerate heart hates God and is at enmity with God. It will only choose one way...against God...until the heart is first regenerated.

 

[GodsElect]

Proverbs 15:10 Harsh discipline is for him who forsakes the way,
And he who hates correction will die.

 

[Boxmaker]

Proverbs 15:10 Harsh discipline is for him who forsakes the way,
And he who hates correction will die.

I keep trying to correct you but you just wont listen.

 

[Boxmaker]

But you're totally missing the point. He said if you love vanilla but hate chocolate, you would choose vanilla every time, by your own free choice.

Scripture tells us what the unregenerate heart will choose every time, by it's own free choice. The unregenerate heart hates God and is at enmity with God. It will only choose one way...against God...until the heart is first regenerated.

An unregenerate heart cannot please God, but it can understand that there is something better. Man was made by God for fellowship with God. The fall removed that fellowship so we spend our lives trying to fill that emptyness.

Of our own choice we will not listen to God because the bling of a fallen life seems so much more attractive than the treasure offered by God we are blinded. But God reaches through that blindness and opens our eyes, maybe just enough to get us interested. Jesus tells that those who seek, find and those who knock wil be let in. Jesus speaks of us resonding to God.

 

[GodsElect]

I keep trying to correct you but you just wont listen.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

But, as I understand works as used in Ephesians, accepting Christ as you savior does not qualify as a work. Works are external things that people see. Salvation is enteranl and between you and God.

I used to think this, too. In the margin of page 26 of Willing to Believe: The Controversy Over Free Will by Sproul, I wrote a margin note as I was struggling through all of this myself. It says

A 'meritorious work' would be a +
Rejecting grace is a -
Accepting God's grace is a 0, a neutral that in and of itself counts for nothing. There is certainly no room to boast in it.

and I was absolutley wrong.

Try this...I choose God. Harry does not. Why do I go to heaven and Harry does not? According to non-Reformed views, which I assume includes yours, it's because I chose. As much as you may want to dance around the issue, I chose leaves me in the control seat.

The Reformed view says something more like this...I choose God. Harry does not. Why do I go to heaven and Harry does not? Because God first regenerated my heart so that I would choose.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

An unregenerate heart cannot please God, but it can understand that there is something better.

Let's put aside our reasoning (which is heavily influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, anyway) for a minute. What does Scripture say about the unregenerate heart? We don't need reason to do this...we can objectively see what Scripture says:

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. Titus 1:15



...the sinful (or unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8

What does all of that leave us to conclude about the unregenerate heart?

Man was made by God for fellowship with God. The fall removed that fellowship so we spend our lives trying to fill that emptyness.

Yeah...but the unregenrate heart runs everywhere except to God in an attempt to fill it.

Of our own choice we will not listen to God because the bling of a fallen life seems so much more attractive than the treasure offered by God we are blinded. But God reaches through that blindness and opens our eyes, maybe just enough to get us interested.

You're not going far enough. God regenerates the hearts of those He choses to.

Jesus tells that those who seek, find and those who knock wil be let in. Jesus speaks of us resonding to God.

Yeah...but who will seek? Who will knock? The Scriptures are very clear that an unregenerate heart will never do those things, for the same reason that a person who hates chocolate ice cream will never choose chocolate ice cream.

 

[edie19]

. . . Of our own choice we will not listen to God because the bling of a fallen life seems so much more attractive than the treasure offered by God we are blinded. But God reaches through that blindness and opens our eyes, maybe just enough to get us interested. Jesus tells that those who seek, find and those who knock wil be let in. Jesus speaks of us resonding to God.

It always interests me that folks use the Revelation 3 passage as their defense for choosing - reading the chapter makes it extremely clear that Christ is talking to a church, an existing part of His body. Even so, He's reminding them to mend their ways - it's a call to repentance, not a call to salvation.

 

[bradfordl]

An unregenerate heart cannot please God, but it can understand that there is something better.

1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Man was made by God for fellowship with God.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Man, and everything else, was made first for God's glory. More delusionary self-importance.

The fall removed that fellowship so we spend our lives trying to fill that emptyness.

Missing fellowship with God would be a thing "of the Spirit of God" would it not? If a natural man can't even discern such things, how would he yearn to "fill that emptyness"?

Of our own choice we will not listen to God because the bling of a fallen life seems so much more attractive than the treasure offered by God we are blinded.

Its far worse than just "bling", and it far more than just one thing being more "attractive" than another.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

But God reaches through that blindness and opens our eyes, maybe just enough to get us interested.

But no natural man will "get interested" (see scripture above). So it must be more than just "getting us interested". There must be some radical change performed on the person from outside himself, from the Spirit of God. He doesn't just meet us halfway, He overthrows our entire nature as a Conquerer.

Jesus tells that those who seek, find and those who knock wil be let in. Jesus speaks of us resonding to God.

More eisegesis. See EDB19's post. Stop using scripture out of context.

Your teachers are blind and believe a lie about God and His salvation of His elect. Their lie tickles you ears because it feeds the pride of your flesh. To think you're not so bad that you couldn't choose repentance over damnation is to think exceedingly far more highly of yourself than you ought. But your pride likes that idea, so you cling to false teaching tenaciously against a multitude of scripture to the contrary. May God grant you repentance.

 

[UMP]

1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Man, and everything else, was made first for God's glory. More delusionary self-importance.Missing fellowship with God would be a thing "of the Spirit of God" would it not? If a natural man can't even discern such things, how would he yearn to "fill that emptyness"?Its far worse than just "bling", and it far more than just one thing being more "attractive" than another.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
But no natural man will "get interested" (see scripture above). So it must be more than just "getting us interested". There must be some radical change performed on the person from outside himself, from the Spirit of God. He doesn't just meet us halfway, He overthrows our entire nature as a Conquerer.More eisegesis. See EDB19's post. Stop using scripture out of context.

Your teachers are blind and believe a lie about God and His salvation of His elect. Their lie tickles you ears because it feeds the pride of your flesh. To think you're not so bad that you couldn't choose repentance over damnation is to think exceedingly far more highly of yourself than you ought. But your pride likes that idea, so you cling to false teaching tenaciously against a multitude of scripture to the contrary. May God grant you repentance.

Bradfordl,
I almost get the feeling that Boxmaker is trolling.
You have answered his questions over and over and over and over again and his responses evade and elude going past simple logic. It's troll like. Maybe he's doing this just to get a rise?? I'm just going to stop responding. I guess I give up.