The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[m9lc]

Sorry, one account of a son (not even the actual person) saying that his father new what he was doing was wrong, does not account for Hitler, Hussein, etc. They held worldviews that said killing for the reasons they presupposed were true and it is a baseless claim to say that their beliefs were actually trumped by a 'common sense' that said it was wrong. They can only truly believe one or the other! These are mutually exclusive viewpoints - either they believed their worldview truly (which granted the execution of numerous people) or they knew truly what they were doing was wrong. You can't have it both ways.

What are you talking about?

Jim Jones, Hitler, and Hussein all truly believed what they were doing was wrong. They also truly knew that they cared more about their own power than their moral actions. It's not contradictory at all to say that.

Wait a second here. So any who doesn't lineup with your view of 'common sense' has a psychological problem? How do you know that your common sense is 'correct' and someone who holds different views has the 'psychological problem'? Are you claiming that your intuition tells you certain things are right and certain things are wrong and that this intuition is present in everyone EXCEPT those with psychological problems?

Yup. It's fair to say that someone who believes that it's wrong for anyone to kill them, but it's O.K. for them to kill anyone else, has a psychological problem. Not to mention when we look at these people and find chemical imbalances in their brains, we can definitively say that yes, there is a problem with them.

You are just reaffirming that 'do unto others....' is not the sole absolute moral you abide by. So what other exceptions do you abide by outside of this principle? And what binds me to follow ANY of these principles?

That's pretty much it. I've already explained how it's common sense.

Let me put it this way: 99.999999% of people in the world don't want to get killed, burgled, raped, etc. And the only way to accomplish that goal and make everyone happy is for everyone in the world to agree not to do those things to each other.

Bingo. Welcome to the doctrine of 'Fallen Man' that is laced throughout the entire Bible. Seem unfair? Well while through this one man, Adam, comes death, so through one man comes eternal life - Jesus Christ.

So let me get this straight.

God made people. When he made Adam and Eve, he deliberately put that tree in the Garden of Eden for no real reason and said "DON'T EAT THIS!" Now, remember, he created humans, and he created us in a special way so that when you say not to do something with no real explanation, we tend to want to do it. And, he created us with the full foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, and he didn't bother creating us in a different way so that they would not. They eat the fruit, and they condemn all mankind.

It seems awfully apparent to me that it's really God's own fault that we're sinful.

And after that, he sends his Son down to save some ofmankind, only the ones that had the personality trait of being willing to believe without evidence. Why did Adam condemn all, but Jesus only saved some?

 

[Emmy]

Dear loudatheist 101. You had a few very good replies, yet when you consider, we are on Earth to learn to become worthy, to share God`s gift of eternal life, with Himself and with our Christian brothers and sisters, you will have to admit that the one impossible act, or deed, would be interference. We have a choice to follow God`s Commandments, which are for own GOOD, or we can ignore them, and even go against them. God loves us, Jesus died to reconcile us to God, we have the free will to Repent, to become as God wants us to be, loving, forgiving, considerrate, treat each other, as we would like to be treated ourselves. Jesus is our Helper and Guide, He will lead us back to God, back to our original Home. We are on Earth to learn, loudatheist, to become worthy children, to live with our Worthy Creator- God. It is not easy, but we are given many years to learn, and the promised help of our Saviour Jesus Christ. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[loudatheist101]

Dear loudatheist 101. You had a few very good replies, yet when you consider, we are on Earth to learn to become worthy, to share God`s gift of eternal life, with Himself and with our Christian brothers and sisters, you will have to admit that the one impossible act, or deed, would be interference. We have a choice to follow God`s Commandments, which are for own GOOD, or we can ignore them, and even go against them. God loves us, Jesus died to reconcile us to God, we have the free will to Repent, to become as God wants us to be, loving, forgiving, considerrate, treat each other, as we would like to be treated ourselves. Jesus is our Helper and Guide, He will lead us back to God, back to our original Home. We are on Earth to learn, loudatheist, to become worthy children, to live with our Worthy Creator- God. It is not easy, but we are given many years to learn, and the promised help of our Saviour Jesus Christ. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

You sound like a native American telling me we live for "The Eagle" and how "He created this world for us to share with fellow Blackfoot Tribe members". You have no more evidence to your god as a Native American had to all their mythological gods.

 

[ContentInHim]

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

What you are not considering is that to those who believed and trusted in God, he was with them the whole time and now they are with him. This life is a vapor - fleeting - and then it disappears. Death is only the passage, no matter how horrible.

For those who died without God, knowing that God is just, I'm believing that they had a chance for salvation and did not grasp it as the believers did. Those are the ones I mourn for, not for the believers.

I know this post will be ripped apart, but it's simply not true that God was not at VA Tech!

 

[loudatheist101]

What you are not considering is that to those who believed and trusted in God, he was with them the whole time and now they are with him. This life is a vapor - fleeting - and then it disappears. Death is only the passage, no matter how horrible.

For those who died without God, knowing that God is just, I'm believing that they had a chance for salvation and did not grasp it as the believers did. Those are the ones I mourn for, not for the believers.

I know this post will be ripped apart, but it's simply not true that God was not at VA Tech!

So, you think everyone that dies in any event like this, must not be a Christian? Hmm. You remind me of those people at Westboro Babtist Church.

 

[Theogonia]

This is always a difficult arguement to answer and I probably won't do a good job of it.

A Kabbalistic concept says that God may in fact crush the body of a person to draw their spirit closer to him. So if someone dies prematurely, we could look at it as God allowed them to die to bring their spirit to him.

In other words, God must have a reason for allowing them to die, otherwise he would have saved them.

 

[Defcon]

What are you talking about?

Jim Jones, Hitler, and Hussein all truly believed what they were doing was wrong. They also truly knew that they cared more about their own power than their moral actions. It's not contradictory at all to say that.

I suggest you consider Hitler's personal work Mein Kampf to see if you can find where he truly believes his beliefs are wrong yet he still went ahead and did them. Hussein, last time I checked, never admitted any wrongdoing in his trials. The 9/11 terrorists are PRAISED by terrorists around the world for conducting attacks against the enemy. Yet you claim all have this knowledge of good and evil and those who do evil know fully that what they are doing if evil.

The evidence just isn't there - while you point to Jones (whom again, we only have testimony of the son - any bias there you think?) how do you explain all these other people? Or are you claiming a universal intuition as your presupposition?

Yup. It's fair to say that someone who believes that it's wrong for anyone to kill them, but it's O.K. for them to kill anyone else, has a psychological problem. Not to mention when we look at these people and find chemical imbalances in their brains, we can definitively say that yes, there is a problem with them.

This is evolution you believe in right? Ok, let's go with evolution and chemical imbalances that cause 'psychological problems.' In the survival of the fittest model, the strong survive - so right now those who have a certain balance of chemicals in there body are considered 'normal' because they are the majority. However, according to your atheistic/evolution worldview, if ever a race of people with a different balance of chemicals, which let's say causes them to be ultra-aggressive and murderous, begins killing off other peoples while at the same time reproducing their like kinds - then eventually they will be the majority. Now they obviously will set the standard that their 'chemical balance' is normative and those we consider 'normal' now are those people with psychological problems.

Under the above scenario, do you hold that, even though a natural race has wiped out the majority consensus of 'common sense' with a chemical balance as we know it today, that murder is still wrong for all people no matter what? Or do we now follow the natural order of this world and accept that murder is acceptable?

(As a side note- how are you absolutely sure that the thoughts of those who do evil are caused by chemical imbalances and not vice versa?)

So let me get this straight.

God made people. When he made Adam and Eve, he deliberately put that tree in the Garden of Eden for no real reason and said "DON'T EAT THIS!" Now, remember, he created humans, and he created us in a special way so that when you say not to do something with no real explanation, we tend to want to do it. And, he created us with the full foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, and he didn't bother creating us in a different way so that they would not. They eat the fruit, and they condemn all mankind.

It seems awfully apparent to me that it's really God's own fault that we're sinful.

And after that, he sends his Son down to save some ofmankind, only the ones that had the personality trait of being willing to believe without evidence. Why did Adam condemn all, but Jesus only saved some?

Do you really want an answer or are you just ranting at your supposed understanding of Christian doctrine?

 

[ContentInHim]

So, you think everyone that dies in any event like this, must not be a Christian? Hmm. You remind me of those people at Westboro Babtist Church.

No, not at all. Actually, sometimes believers outnumber unbelievers, like the victims of Columbine. But those who were believing Christians (not just in name only christians - OK?) when they were murdered are with their messiah today. They will live forever. Those who rejected his salvation are now undoubtedly regretting their decision.

I have to laugh at how threatened everyone is by Westboro "baptist" church. Did you know that there are only about 30 members and all from one family? Not even worthy of your disgust let alone your comparison to Christianity, but hey - do what makes you feel good!

 

[ContentInHim]

Right because they are in "hell". Stop spouting false doctrine and we'll talk.

Yeah, right!

 

[Theogonia]

Yeah, right!

So you honestly believe that all the non-christians that died in the shooting are burning in hell as we speak?

 

[xapis]

...with so many appeals to emotion here, how do any of you expect to arrive at the truth of the matter?

 

[Theogonia]

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I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Morcova]

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In otherwords he asks hard questions so he must hate god....

 

[loudatheist101]

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So, an interesting thought and question that takes brain power to answer is hate? Last time I checked, you guys are the ones that hate abortion, gays, atheists, liberals, and anyone else that does not fit your "true Christian" status. How do I know? By that post you just wrote.

 

[ExistencePrecedesEssence]

You are pursuing a very un-emotional and pessimistic approach to the issue. You are making a religion out of making religion, and i suggest, you do not fall into self-deception and bad-faith because of what you wish to pursue with your senseless criticism. Ask yourself, do you gain anything for the better of not only yourself, but also of the whole of man through these acts? Remember, every choice you make, you make it for all of man, if it does not assist man in highering the persona of man, then it is a senseless waste, all atheists should realize that. Unless you gain something for not only yourself, but also for everyone around you through your argument then your argument only preaches a senseless and inconsiderate message, one with a vocabulary of dark depression, and of a message even darker. That is not the message of atheism that should be noticed, atleast for me, since i associate myself with existential atheism. I must agree with aigigninf on his statement that your god is hate.

 

[aigiqinf]

So, an interesting thought and question that takes brain power to answer is hate? Last time I checked, you guys are the ones that hate abortion, gays, atheists, liberals, and anyone else that does not fit your "true Christian" status. How do I know? By that post you just wrote.

You guys? I would assume you are referring to us conservatives. Yes we hate murder (abortion), and yes we hate any belief system that leads people away from God, but we should hate the sin and not the sinner. Ad hominem tu quoquei snot very productive in a discussion.

In otherwords he asks hard questions so he must hate god....

That is a synopsis not supported by the original post. Have will admit, I have not read all 12 pages of this thread, and have not seen a "hard question." Furthermore,

Of course he does. That professor that survived the Holocuast saved all this kids yet, our all loving God is ticked off because that professor did not love Jesus, so that hero will burn in hell for enternity. Oh I love how all loving and forgiving Jesus is!

Is not the kind of post I see moving discussion along. He seems to need hate.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

Does this also move discussion along? If you believe I am wrong, that telling me how I am wrong is much more productive than simply telling me I am wrong.

 

[loudatheist101]

Is not the kind of post I see moving discussion along. He seems to need hate.
Does this also move discussion along? If you believe I am wrong, that telling me how I am wrong is much more productive than simply telling me I am wrong.

Well, is it true, or not true, that that Jewish hero, who lived the holocaust, and saved all those kids for his own life, is going to hell to be burned for eternity? Answer this. Yes or no.

 

[Theogonia]

Yes we hate murder (abortion)

That's a matter of opinion and not a fact.

and yes we hate any belief system that leads people away from God

Leads people away from God only in the opinion of the church. I however, have found that that isn't the case.

Some people in fact find God in other religions, as opposed to Christianity.

but we should hate the sin and not the sinner.

Yet another idea that somehow, almost every Christian I've talked to doesn't get.

Of course he does. That professor that survived the Holocuast saved all this kids yet, our all loving God is ticked off because that professor did not love Jesus, so that hero will burn in hell for enternity. Oh I love how all loving and forgiving Jesus is!

What you're missing here, is the hard question:

Did that Jew who obviously demonstrated true love and was a true follower of God go to hell just because he wasn't a Christian?

I would say he was a true Christian; whether he believed in Jesus or not is not important.

Is not the kind of post I see moving discussion along. He seems to need hate.

It has nothing to do with hate, he is merely shocked at how supposed followers of God can believe such horrible untruths. As am I.

 

[loudatheist101]

That's a matter of opinion and not a fact.



Leads people away from God only in the opinion of the church. I however, have found that that isn't the case.

Some people in fact find God in other religions, as opposed to Christianity.



Yet another idea that somehow, almost every Christian I've talked to doesn't get.



What you're missing here, is the hard question:

Did that Jew who obviously demonstrated true love and was a true follower of God go to hell just because he wasn't a Christian?

I would say he was a true Christian; whether he believed in Jesus or not is not important.



It has nothing to do with hate, he is merely shocked at how supposed followers of God can believe such horrible untruths. As am I.

Thank you. You are exactly right thanks much.

 

[phsyxx]

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What if justice is a human invention?
What if God is so just that the human concept of justice is so inadequate in comparison that the Atheist and the Christian may stand before God one day, and the two shall receive exactly the same verdict?