The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[Cheriann]

 

[Phil4987]

This is why I am a deist. Deism is the most logical theistic belief.

 

[loudatheist101]

This is why I am a deist. Deism is the most logical theistic belief.

I agree with you there. I believe it is the most logical *theist* belief too. I used to be one aswell.

 

[Cheriann]

I believe G-d did do something, He made us and gave us the knowledge of right and wrong. I believe we have the responsibility of looking out for our fellow man. Of holding people responsible and being held responsible.

 

[loudatheist101]

I believe G-d did do something, He made us and gave us the knowledge of right and wrong. I believe we have the responsibility of looking out for our fellow man. Of holding people responsible and being held responsible.

He did not give us the knoledge of Right and Wrong. That is man made. In China, they used to burn cats for amusement of their pain. Here in the U.S. we would think that is "wrong". People in ancient times thought it was fine to murder someone if you needed too. Today we would find that wrong. God did not give us this. We simply make it up ourselves.

 

[Morcova]

It is my personal opinion but if I must list some scriptures I guess I would list:

1 John 1:15-17

John 1:15-17




15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.



Why would you choose that as it does nothing to support your case?

Ephesians 314For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

If we are the family of god, then surely we are to expect him to act as a father.

Galatians 4:4-74But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Indeed we are so much the children of god and that as any good father has he had made us his heir.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Is that all God did? Create us and now He just sits back and watches us kill each other? You sound like a deist! What is the point of praying to Him for guidance then?

God gives us guidance and substance in life. To me that is worth praying for.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

He did not give us the knoledge of Right and Wrong. That is man made. In China, they used to burn cats for amusement of their pain. Here in the U.S. we would think that is "wrong". People in ancient times thought it was fine to murder someone if you needed too. Today we would find that wrong. God did not give us this. We simply make it up ourselves.

Right and wrong is a extension of morality from religion.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

John 1:15-17




15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.



Why would you choose that as it does nothing to support your case?
If we are the family of god, then surely we are to expect him to act as a father.


Indeed we are so much the children of god and that as any good father has he had made us his heir.

You will have to forgive me but I posted the wrong scripture.

I meant to post 1 John 2:15-17

<H5>Do Not Love the World

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world&#8212;the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does&#8212;comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

</H5>
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:15-17%20;&version=31;


It is my favorite scripture of the bible and a large part of my faith is based off of it.

 

[elman]

=loudatheist101;34215885]He did not give us the knoledge of Right and Wrong. That is man made. In China, they used to burn cats for amusement of their pain.

Why did they quit? Did someone think it might be wrong to do that? Humans doing wrong does not prove they did not know it was wrong.

Here in the U.S. we would think that is "wrong". People in ancient times thought it was fine to murder someone if you needed too. Today we would find that wrong. God did not give us this. We simply make it up ourselves.

Murder has been known to be wrong throughout recorded history. All cultures of all time and in the present believe it is wrong. Your statments are in error.

 

[Cheriann]

Why did they quite? Did someone think it might be wrong to do that? Humans doing wrong does not prove they did not know it was wrong.


Murder has been known to be wrong throughout recorded history. All cultures of all time and in the present believe it is wrong. Your statments are in error.

 

[Defcon]

Is there any particular reason why you didn't answer both questions? Please answer the second question.


If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

First of all - why won't you answer my questions?

To answer your question (as I'm trying to meet your request even though you have yet to meet mine) - No. Because if God doesn't define truth, there is no truth to define. As a Christian, I am not obliged to presuppose moral standards outside of God and I will not attempt futility. My presuppositions are defined and are known.

So perhaps its time to explain from your atheistic worldview why you consider this incident wrong and horrific? What are YOU presupposing when you state this?

 

[m9lc]

But this isn't universal. Hitler, Hussein, etc. did not share this view. Are they valid in their judgements since they followed sincerely what they believed?

I was always under the impression that Hitler used Jews as a scapegoat in order to keep the populace united under him, and Hussein, well, he just wanted to destroy all opposition. They were both doing it out of selfish ambition, not anything they truly believed in.

That sure sounds nice, but you are borrowing my worldview - Matthew 7:12 " So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." But we've already seen you don't believe the Bible is authoritive. So where else do you derive the principle? And where is it that it spreads to every man and binds His conscience in your worldview?

Yes, I was raised a Christian. I know that's straight out of the Bible.

How do I know it's right? It's just common sense. If I would refuse with all my strength to let someone kill me, but would kill anyone else without regret, it's extremely hypocritical. This applies to every human being on Earth.

So self-defense shouldn't be practiced? Someone pulls a knife on you and you should let him kill you? "Well I wouldn't want him to kill me, so I won't kill them." I'm guessing this isn't your viewpoint - so it seems you have more complexity to your viewpoint than this. Please explain.

When he first breaks that moral standard, my obligation to hold myself to that standard in dealing with him is invalidated.

Well, that depends on your worldview.

Would you like to have been an infant in Jericho who was killed simply because of who your parents were?

Romans 1:18-32. He's not imaginary, He's why you know what you know about right and wrong and why you also know He exists.

Oh that whole "deep down, you know God exists!" argument? That's laughable. For years I tried to find that deep-down part of myself that believed he exists. And, well, I'm an atheist today.

 

[Defcon]

I was always under the impression that Hitler used Jews as a scapegoat in order to keep the populace united under him, and Hussein, well, he just wanted to destroy all opposition. They were both doing it out of selfish ambition, not anything they truly believed in.

They didn't truly believe in the fact that they wanted to rule over others my any means necessary? Your claim is that they acted in these ways knowing full well they were ficticious, insane, and wrong? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes, I was raised a Christian. I know that's straight out of the Bible.

How do I know it's right? It's just common sense. If I would refuse with all my strength to let someone kill me, but would kill anyone else without regret, it's extremely hypocritical. This applies to every human being on Earth.

Uh-oh..... did you just declare a moral absolute? Why, I think you did. Yet, what is it based on? Let's see.....oh yeah 'common sense.' Before I go further let me ask, what do you mean "applies to every human being on Earth." Are you saying that you judge all human beings to this standard or that all humans have this 'common sense' as part of being 'human'?

When he first breaks that moral standard, my obligation to hold myself to that standard in dealing with him is invalidated.

Another moral absolute. So there is more than just "do unto others...." that you say exists absolutely. I'll wait for your answer concerning the above section.

Would you like to have been an infant in Jericho who was killed simply because of who your parents were?

By God's judgement, all deserve death - including me. It's only by His mercy that I have eternal life. So if He sovereignly chose me to be killed as an infant, I would have no injustice to claim. All have sinned and are cursed through Adam. This does not mean I believe God condemns all infants to hell, for again it is only up to His sovereign choice that any are saved.

 

[m9lc]

They didn't truly believe in the fact that they wanted to rule over others my any means necessary? Your claim is that they acted in these ways knowing full well they were ficticious, insane, and wrong? You've got to be kidding me.

They truly believed in that fact. I'm also sure they believed in the fact that they were doing wrong. I recall watching a documentary of Jonestown... Jim Jones's son said that his father knew fully well that he was doing wicked things. People have the capability to know that what they are doing is totally wrong, but do it anyway.

Uh-oh..... did you just declare a moral absolute? Why, I think you did. Yet, what is it based on? Let's see.....oh yeah 'common sense.' Before I go further let me ask, what do you mean "applies to every human being on Earth." Are you saying that you judge all human beings to this standard or that all humans have this 'common sense' as part of being 'human'?

Yes. It's as much common sense as it is common sense to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. Anyone who doesn't have this sense has a psychological problem.

Another moral absolute. So there is more than just "do unto others...." that you say exists absolutely. I'll wait for your answer concerning the above section.

It's hard to completely and adequately explain any aspect of life with only one sentence. I'm just going to say again: It's hypocritical for him to fight against me killing him, when he has no qualms about doing the exact same thing to me.

By God's judgement, all deserve death - including me.

Why?

It's only by His mercy that I have eternal life. So if He sovereignly chose me to be killed as an infant, I would have no injustice to claim.

What in the world did you do when you were an infant that merited your execution?

All have sinned and are cursed through Adam.

So you're saying since Adam made one mistake the whole human race deserves to die and go to Hell?

 

[Defcon]

They truly believed in that fact. I'm also sure they believed in the fact that they were doing wrong. I recall watching a documentary of Jonestown... Jim Jones's son said that his father knew fully well that he was doing wicked things. People have the capability to know that what they are doing is totally wrong, but do it anyway.

Sorry, one account of a son (not even the actual person) saying that his father new what he was doing was wrong, does not account for Hitler, Hussein, etc. They held worldviews that said killing for the reasons they presupposed were true and it is a baseless claim to say that their beliefs were actually trumped by a 'common sense' that said it was wrong. They can only truly believe one or the other! These are mutually exclusive viewpoints - either they believed their worldview truly (which granted the execution of numerous people) or they knew truly what they were doing was wrong. You can't have it both ways.

Yes. It's as much common sense as it is common sense to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. Anyone who doesn't have this sense has a psychological problem.

Wait a second here. So any who doesn't lineup with your view of 'common sense' has a psychological problem? How do you know that your common sense is 'correct' and someone who holds different views has the 'psychological problem'? Are you claiming that your intuition tells you certain things are right and certain things are wrong and that this intuition is present in everyone EXCEPT those with psychological problems?

It's hard to completely and adequately explain any aspect of life with only one sentence. I'm just going to say again: It's hypocritical for him to fight against me killing him, when he has no qualms about doing the exact same thing to me.

You are just reaffirming that 'do unto others....' is not the sole absolute moral you abide by. So what other exceptions do you abide by outside of this principle? And what binds me to follow ANY of these principles?

Why?

What in the world did you do when you were an infant that merited your execution?

So you're saying since Adam made one mistake the whole human race deserves to die and go to Hell?

Bingo. Welcome to the doctrine of 'Fallen Man' that is laced throughout the entire Bible. Seem unfair? Well while through this one man, Adam, comes death, so through one man comes eternal life - Jesus Christ.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

Umm, only if one is so juvenile as to believe "God" = "Sugar Daddy" or "Santa Claus" - that He's somehow obliged to you, to give you the precise type of life you want, or that He does not own you in the most literal and absolute sense.

Further, there are obviously things about this situation we as human beings can never know, or presume to know. Say, what if for some of the persons killed this was a judgement? For others, perhaps a mercy to save them from greater evil? For other's still, a sign. Etc.

The root of atheism, once you dispose of the sophistry, is a shaking angry fist saying "I will not serve." Well, fair enough. Burn in Hell.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

Yes, but the beauty of Christianity is that you can say "It is God's will and we humans can't understand it" to any example showing that God never seems to do anything at all, so it's impossible to point out any flaw in God's actions. Isn't religion great?

This is a very unworthy and anthropomorphic conception of God that you're trafficking in. It's assuming a lot which is in fact beneath the Divine Majesty.

For example, few consider that every instant is an act of God - or that His rewards and punishments, His establishing of limits, these things are all manifest in every moment of your life. You can taste His retribution and warning in what people often call "causality". The drunk who ends up dead wrapped around a tree in his crumpled up car - is that not a judgement?

People think God is so "far" away when the truth is that everything around them is a sign of His providence.

And you're right, it is impossible to find flaw in God's actions.

 

[GenuineMonotheist]

Yeah no kidding. You hear people praise God and shout "God is awsome!" or "He really loves me!" when they find their car keys however, if something like VT happens, "Oh, God gave us free will and he allows his children to kill eachother, no one can understand God"

Hmm, sounds like it's all chance to me and that there is no god!

Maybe Christians do that, Muslims do not. Nothing happens apart from God's will - even the moral choices we make will never be against His will. The Qur'an says that He will often chose to "give rope" to those who pursue evil - but if He wants to cut them off, He does, as if it were nothing. It's all in His power.

 

[elman]

Maybe Christians do that, Muslims do not. Nothing happens apart from God's will - even the moral choices we make will never be against His will. The Qur'an says that He will often chose to "give rope" to those who pursue evil - but if He wants to cut them off, He does, as if it were nothing. It's all in His power.

If that were true we would not have suicide bombers so it must not be accurate.