Why are we so hard on YECs?

[laptoppop]

To that end I will hone my abilities and gifts as far as I possibly can: to delve into the creationist mindset as far as I can reach so that I know how to root it out as quickly and painlessly as possible should the need ever arise.

Wow. Are you so sure of your own infallibility? Be careful -- we are not each other's enemy. Our shared real enemy walks about like a lion seeking those he may devour.

 

[Assyrian]

These are the two greatest commandments, and certainly we are to keep them in front of us, obey BOTH of them, as we seek to become more like Christ.

The statement I'd disagree with is "the rest of the Word has to be understood as revolving around this". They are the two greatest commandments, and it is good to keep them in mind while reading Scripture, but they are not a keystone for all of Scripture. I would suggest the Gospel, in particular the incarnation, as a more appropriate keystone. The amazing love-- God becoming Man in Jesus -- giving in love even to the point of death -- rising in victory and power. THIS is the key around which Scripture revolves. As you read the history of Israel, you can see God setting up the stage for Jesus. As you read the New Testament, Christ is glorified.

So, while the two greatest commandments are wonderful - Jesus is life itself.

But he is the one who said:
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

And even...

Matt 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

[laptoppop]

But he is the one who said:
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

And even...

Matt 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Yes, they are a great summation of the core of the old covenant. But we are of Christ, not of the old covenant. I'm not dismissing them - just saying they are not the best lens through which to view all of Scripture. However, keeping them in mind as we look at Scripture is fine - especially as we work on understanding pieces of the old covenant.

 

[vossler]

VOSSLER i am still waiting on your response?

Are we a little impatient? You post at 12:30am and then at 9:30am you tell me you're still waiting and repost the same post? Hey, I realize you look forward to and value my responses but isn't that just a bit too much? Some of us do sleep and have a life that is outside of CF.

I see the word God as one simple message: "Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

And the rest of the Word has to be understood as revolving around this.

I will not separate the two commandments, nor will I believe in an understanding of the word, that speaks of one, but leaves out the other.

That's all fine and good, I believe likewise. However that wasn't my point. I was making an inference based on your statement:

"Now, instead of just sitting there with this understanding, I took it to this forum, and presented why I believe in "post-tribulation" rapture. I was surprised to find so many others that believed as I did, but more importantly I saw that the opposition was weightless. So I didn't just lean on my "own" understanding, I explored it to the furthest end possible, to see if it was true."
​

This just showed me how you lean on other peoples understanding rather than the source of all understanding.

I believe the Sermon of the Mount is to be taken as literal, and that the laws and the prophets have ended, and it is the Sermon of the Mount (the expounded version of the laws) that need to followed, since Christ says that house built on this, is the one that stands, do you? I believe we are called to live a life renouncing worldly wealth, and possession, because Christ seems quite hostile to these things? do you?

How do you know the Sermon on the Mount wasn't an allegory? Did someone here at CF tell you that? What do you base your belief that we are called to live a life renouncing worldly wealth and possessions on? Show me where Christ was hostile to them.

Do those who disagree with this interpretation lean on their own understanding, their own flesh? or do they lean on the Word of God?

I couldn't tell you.

My understanding of people who say, "you should lean on the Word of God", is that they are actually inferring that I lean on their understanding.

That's quite an inference! How did you come to that?

It really isn't any surprise that the Word of God is relative to your circumstances and what others tell you. I happen to believe the Word of God doesn't contradict itself, is true on whatever subject it directly speaks of and that if I don't understand it or am confused it is my fault and that I need to submit myself to further study, prayer and meditation.

 

[vossler]

In response to the OP, I am now coming to realize how wasteful and fruitless debating the issue of evolution vs. creationism really is.

Welcome to wisdom and understanding!

So where does debating get us? Nowhere. Fundamentalism is a brick wall.

I like to think of it as a rock.

I don't know how many times I have pitted my 5 years of combined geological and biological training in university against claims of a global flood, invisible barriers to heritability, or the inexistence of transitional fossils, only to be completely ignored.

I see it as fighting a rock, the rock of God's Word. That's a fight you just can't win no matter how much money and education you throw at it.

So am I starting to ask myself, 'Why bother anymore?' The evidence for evolution is as clear to most of the world as the evidence for the sphericity of the earth, and I don't pay those who would deny the latter any mind. If YECs want to be left behind, preaching spiritual allegory as science as Luther and his predecessors did, then so be it. If they want to continue pretending the fossil record represents the effects of a devastating global flood, then so be it.

Thank you for seeing the light, I agree completely.

Let's not pretend: evolution is a monster of a theory, with literally thousands of independent lines of evidence in complete agreement with each other. I just did a search on Web of Science for "evolution" and the search engine had to quit at 10,000 pages of results. A similar search for "creationism" yields just 66 pages, seemingly all of which are critical in nature.

Trust me I'm not pretending anything. I know it is a monster, an ugly one at that.

The theory of evolution is in no danger.

On that I do agree, at least until Christ's return that is. The Truth will then be known to all.

In the meantime, I will...be maintaining my devotion to Christ and his cause.

I hope you don't mind my little edit there. I thought it good to end on a positive note.

 

[vossler]

If I can help it (though it is all in the hands of God) I will not lose anyone whom God has brought me to care for in my limited, human capacities. To that end I will hone my abilities and gifts as far as I possibly can: to delve into the creationist mindset as far as I can reach so that I know how to root it out as quickly and painlessly as possible should the need ever arise. If that necessitates a little frankness every once in a while, so be it. I can only pray that I will be usable when God wishes me to be used, no more, no less.

My mind is and has been available for exploration, although I warn you that it doesn't respond well to conjecture and speculation.

 

[Assyrian]

Yes, they are a great summation of the core of the old covenant. But we are of Christ, not of the old covenant. I'm not dismissing them - just saying they are not the best lens through which to view all of Scripture. However, keeping them in mind as we look at Scripture is fine - especially as we work on understanding pieces of the old covenant.

hithesh has chosen the good portion, I for one shall not take it away from him.

 

[Mallon]

I like to think of it as a rock.

Thanks for the reassurance, vossler. I guess there really is no point arguing with a brick wall or a rock.

 

[Assyrian]

Originally Posted by hithesh
My understanding of people who say, "you should lean on the Word of God", is that they are actually inferring that I lean on their understanding.

That's quite an inference! How did you come to that?

Something to do with this:

I see it as fighting a rock, the rock of God's Word.

You mistake your interpretation of the bible for God's Word itself. Of course you reject the scientific facts Mallon puts so much time into sharing with you. You think they contradict the bible, when they just contradict your misunderstanding of what God was telling us.

 

[vossler]

Thanks for the reassurance, vossler. I guess there really is no point arguing with a brick wall or a rock.

Your welcome!

 

[Jase]

Your welcome!

I find this attitude disturbing, and it's seen all too often among YEC's. Basically, they are proud that they act like brick walls and ignore everyone else just to support their false views. But you know what they say, Ignorance is bliss.

 

[vossler]

I find this attitude disturbing, and it's seen all too often among YEC's. Basically, they are proud that they act like brick walls and ignore everyone else just to support their false views. But you know what they say, Ignorance is bliss.

So you'd rather I dispute it and get into a 'discussion' about it. I think not!

 

[busterdog]

But you know what they say, Ignorance is bliss.

Well, almost. How about,

People who enjoy eating sausage and obeying the law shouldn’t watch either being made.

 

[random_guy]

If I may interject, you seem to be calling out TE's to correct statements by other TE's in a couple of threads. Considering we've been asking Creationists to correct other creationists for a long time, and they never bother, why should we?

I can't count how many times someone on the creationist forum posts some strawman "proof" against evolution, and almost every single creationist cheers in arms at the defeat of the evil evolutionists over something they haven't even bothered to look into. I think busterdog is the only one i've seen actually question some of the nonsense posted by other creationists. No one else does.

I think this is the wrong attitude to take. In the General Creation vs. Evolution thread, there was a post by a TEist claiming that Creationists weren't true Christians because they were spreading a false doctrine. I was the only one to correct the poster that we are all brothers in Christ, no matter what our beliefs.

Regardless of whether or not Creationists correct their own, we should not use that as a standard to police our members. We should always correct any errors made by anyone, TEist or Creationist.

I think that is one reason why Creationist may think we're harder on them than on other TEists. That's because TEists tend to make less scientific mistakes than Creationists, and since TEists tend to be more scientifically minded, they are much more likely to correct errors than Creationists. To Creationists, it may seem heavy handed, but to us, it's just education. When you see an incorrect scientific statement, it's natural you want to correct it to prevent incorrect ideas from spreading.

I think we wouldn't be correct Creationists that much, if at all, if they stopped making scientific statements about Creationism.

 

[KTatis]

Creationist think there is nothing wrong with their beliefs. Scientist on the other hand accept the fact, if not at least acknowlage the fact that they might be the least bit wrong and go back to check their work to prove that they are right. Scientist do all this hard word and it gets debunked by a bunch of guys who don't even understand science that well. YEC claim that they know what they are talking about but yet they don't do anything to prove their claims. They have the mainstream scientist do all the work (find fossils ect.) and turn around and say "No it's not that was a sea monster that lived and died 6000 years ago."

It just sicken me that people could be this ... i cant even find the words for it but YEC need to step their game up and I for one am tired of playing mister nice guy letting them off the hook everytime they have a rebuttal about things. If they are doing something wrong they know they are. Many YEC are grown men and women that don't understand the simple laws of nature!! Nature people! The things we see all around us in every day life. They can't even understand why they see stars a million light years away... hm do I need my Bible for this one? Should I go fetch my science book on this one- how about NO! If you see a light a million light years away then OBVIOUSLY it's a million light years away.

And if you see many people going just a little bit hard on YEC it's because they are stuck up and no im not being offensive. I have respect for everybody period. And I have no problem with YECist- I just can't stand their attitude towards the premise of things. YEC reject everything thrown at them just like a little kid. But they accept the things that they can think up out the blue and some how have thousands of people follow what they believe.

 

[busterdog]

http://www.christianforums.com/t5183225-te-take-on-yec.html

 

[laptoppop]

And if you see many people going just a little bit hard on YEC it's because they are stuck up and no im not being offensive. I have respect for everybody period. And I have no problem with YECist- I just can't stand their attitude towards the premise of things. YEC reject everything thrown at them just like a little kid. But they accept the things that they can think up out the blue and some how have thousands of people follow what they believe.

And you don't consider this offensive? sheesh.

 

[KTatis]

I wasn't being offensive I was exercising freedom of speech. You may have been ofeended but if you were thats the way you decided to view my message. But in a way it's not offensive because more than half of what I said is a fact.

 

[laptoppop]

I believe in YEC. Which parts of the above statement would you apply to me? Try reversing it -- substitute TE or TEist for YEC or YECist and see how it reads.

Basically, whenever you insult an entire group blindly like that, you are insulting each member of the group. Its not true, its not loving, and its not nice.

 

[random_guy]

I wasn't being offensive I was exercising freedom of speech. You may have been ofeended but if you were thats the way you decided to view my message. But in a way it's not offensive because more than half of what I said is a fact.

I think it can be taken as offensive, as there are Creationists that don't follow your generalizations. See this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5245956-questionning-everything.html

You have to put yourself in their shoes. Remember that science goes against their very core beliefs, and that if science was correct, many Creationists would reject Christianity. In many cases, it's not really the Creationists' fault that they believe so, but rather due to our poor science education system, and due to their culture.

Many Creationists I know of were taught to reject science by their parents, and the pattern follows with their kids. Not many Creationists have had the opportunity to have science majors in college (just look at the ratio of YECist scientists to regular scientists). I don't think it's arrogance that causes many to reject science, rather their upbringing.

The best we can do is continue to correct the scientific errors made, and hope that it reaches them.