The Early Church Fathers and Alcohol/Wine

[Dewi Sant]

Todays lesson, How lit candles can double as a weapon.

candle with aerosol can.


This reminds me of my idea of my 'ideal' church architecture.
Lots of little holes in the ground all round the church connected by pipework to one huge incense chamber...then, at the push of a button, the whole church is censed. . Of course, it can be modded so, the icons are censed in sets of three.

Automatic Holy Doors. Grerat golden fans which descend from the ceiling to prevent flies from getting to the eucharist.

And now, bombards in the church walls.

Think, Orthodox Church meets medieval fortress.


Oh yeah! And there is a pressure compartment of incense smoke so that, if an enemy comes too close, a valve can be opened to spray them with incense! (all done in a prayerful manner, of course )

 

[repentant]

candle with aerosol can.


This reminds me of my idea of my 'ideal' church architecture.
Lots of little holes in the ground all round the church connected by pipework to one huge incense chamber...then, at the push of a button, the whole church is censed. . Of course, it can be modded so, the icons are censed in sets of three.

Automatic Holy Doors. Grerat golden fans which descend from the ceiling to prevent flies from getting to the eucharist.

And now, bombards in the church walls.

Think, Orthodox Church meets medieval fortress.


Oh yeah! And there is a pressure compartment of incense smoke so that, if an enemy comes too close, a valve can be opened to spray them with incense! (all done in a prayerful manner, of course )

Some people have to much time on their hands...

 

[Dewi Sant]

If anyone wants a church building designing...please forward them on to me .

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

How can "wine" mean either wine or juice? That is the craziest thing I've every heard. Do churches actualy teach that "wine" means grape juice? I thought they were the ones who took everything in the bible literally?!?!

Yup. My dad told me that when I was a kid.

Alcohol is no more a sin than chocolate. Alcohol, when taken too much, can lead to drunkeness. Chocolate, when taken too much, can lead toward gluttony. In moderation, both are acceptable. I had never heard that the mere drinking of wine is a sin until I came to CF.

Yup. The Nazarene church instilled that in me as a child. Many of the fundamentalist/evangelical sects teach that alcohol is a sin, and use grape juice at communion. Even the PCUSA, which allows alcohol, uses grape juice at most communions. I've been to communion in all these churches--Nazarene, Independent Bible, Evangelical Free, PCUSA--and never, ever had wine. I expect my first Orthodox Eucharist to be a shock.

BTW, being told all your life that alcohol is evil, when it's really not, screws you up for life. I'm having an awfully hard time fighting down the little Puritannical voice inside that says, "They're doing something bad!" when I see somebody drinking, even moderately and responsibly. I sometimes wonder if God brought me to the Orthodox Church so I'd be around alcohol drinkers IN THE CHURCH and be forced to purge that little voice.

I tried some wine, to see if I would like it and purge the voice that way. Unfortunately, it tasted terrible and I couldn't stand the burn. So that didn't work.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Come, live the medditerranean life!

Bread (dipped in olive oil) in your left hand, red wine in your right .

Though the weekend fast during Great Lent doesn't mean too much to most westerners (allowance of oils and wine), to those in the med, it is of great significance. A meal without wine and oil is like a room without windows.

 

[Thekla]

A meal without wine and oil is like a room without windows.

This pretty funny !

I'm only a bit Greek, yet I never feel like its home until there is
olive oil in the house

 

[Dewi Sant]

I tried some wine, to see if I would like it and purge the voice that way. Unfortunately, it tasted terrible and I couldn't stand the burn. So that didn't work.

I wish I was with you in person.

I'd introduce you to wine.

Each person has a different pallette and therefore wishes for different wine.

Myself, in red I like heavy grapes with much body.
In white, I like a dry, crisp grape...the same goes for fruit wine. I love Cranberry wine.

For a beginner, I always suggest the Valpollicella grape (red). It is sweet and fruity and not too startling on the taste.

Now, I have heard of a wine used for communion in Orthdoxy which is made traditionally in Cyprus.
It is very very sweet and fruity (but very high volume too).

 

[Dewi Sant]

This pretty funny !

I'm only a bit Greek, yet I never feel like its home until there is
olive oil in the house

I'm starting to find it quite scary just how Greek I'm becomming.

I eat pretty much nothing but Greek food. I'm an Orthodox Catechumen. I have a massive Greek flag in my room at uni (on full display of course), I've developed a taste for Ouzo, I'm learning the language, my circle of friends is becomming quite Greek, I hugely anticipate the release of the Orthodox Study Bible with the O.T. Septuagint, though, I already have an interlinear Greek-English New Testament. I've been on holiday to Greece countless times and still want to go back to Crete in prospect of living there

I love Greece...not too fond of most places to the East, West or South of Greece (Russia is an exception...of course )

 

[Dewi Sant]

"Give me a word....any word, and I prove to you, that the root of that word, is Greek!" (I confess, I have often given the etymology of many English words using the following structure)

"Take, Arachnophobia. Arachno comes from the Greek Aracha meaning, "Spider", and "Phobia" comes from the Greek, Phobia, it means, well, "fear", so, fear of spiders...ah, there'yu'go!"



My sister and mother had a little surprise when they asked me what does the 'Psych' part of 'Psychology' means .

 

[Thekla]

I

'm starting to find it quite scary just how Greek I'm becomming.

I eat pretty much nothing but Greek food. I'm an Orthodox Catechumen. I have a massive Greek flag in my room at uni (on full display of course), I've developed a taste for Ouzo, I'm learning the language, my circle of friends is becomming quite Greek, I hugely anticipate the release of the Orthodox Study Bible with the O.T. Septuagint, though, I already have an interlinear Greek-English New Testament. I've been on holiday to Greece countless times and still want to go back to Crete in prospect of living there

I love Greece...not too fond of most places to the East, West or South of Greece (Russia is an exception...of course

In my family, this is referred to as "being hellenized". My aunt fought it the hardest, but both her kids have typical Greek names.
Basically, YOU'RE SUNK

 

[Dewi Sant]

My childrens names are already determined.

1st boy, "Chris[todoulos]" (after my priest and I'm called Christopher)
1st girl, "Helen" (after my mother)

Other boys:
John (Chrysostomos)
Constantine....though that will probably be a middle name
Andrew (My father is called Andrew, though I prefer Andreas)


for girls, I mainly like Helen, though Maria is good too.

 

[AJB4]

Many people use Proverbs 23:25-29 as an argument against wine:

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again."

For them, I'd ask:

Since drinking wine was accepted by God in Old Testament times (I think?), why would there be an Old Testament-era proverb speaking out against alcohol altogether?

Also, it seems clear to me that the person described in that proverb is an alcoholic. I mean, come on:

"redness of eyes", "they that tarry long at the wine", "behold strange women", "utter perverse things", "when shall I wake? I will seek it yet again"

It's clearly talking about an alcoholic.

 

[Dewi Sant]

It is sinful to be an alcoholic, just as it is sinful to drink so much coke one would become obese and slothful.

 

[AJB4]

It is sinful to be an alcoholic, just as it is sinful to drink so much coke one would become obese and slothful.

But drinking was accepted in OT times, right?

 

[EastChief]

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


I mentioned this verse to some people who told me wine is really grape juice, and suddenly I got no response from them!

 

[Photios]

Any word, Ramesses?

Dinijou
Dharma
Tahn

...off the top of my head. I'd be shocked if you were familiar with all three though. One is likely, two is a surprise, and all three is amazing.

 

[minasoliman]

"Give me a word....any word, and I prove to you, that the root of that word, is Greek!" (I confess, I have often given the etymology of many English words using the following structure)

"Take, Arachnophobia. Arachno comes from the Greek Aracha meaning, "Spider", and "Phobia" comes from the Greek, Phobia, it means, well, "fear", so, fear of spiders...ah, there'yu'go!"



My sister and mother had a little surprise when they asked me what does the 'Psych' part of 'Psychology' means .

Hey, Mr. Portucolous, what about the word "Komono"?

My favorite part of the movie:

Ian: "Hey, Mr. Portucolous, Shristo Nesti!"

Gus: (talking in Greek) "Sigh! When my ancestors were writing philosophy, your's were still swinging from trees!"

Ian: (to Toula) "What did he say?"

Toula: (initially with shock, but then turns to a pleasing facial expression) "Oh, he likes you!"

Sometimes, I correlate this with all the Egyptian pride we have in our Coptic churches. My father always told me, "It is a shame that you as an Egyptian should get a 99 in the mathematics. We Egyptians build the pyramids!"

 

[Monica child of God 1]

At the wedding in Cana: "You've saved the best [grape juice] for last." It just doesn't make sense in context. There is no better or worse grape juice.

M.

 

[AJB4]

This is what I posted at the Restoration Movement section:
______________________________________________
Jesus himself drank wine.

Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!


If Jesus did not drink real, alcoholic wine, but grape juice, then answer me this:

Why would they accuse Jesus of being a 'winebibber' for drinking fruit juice?

Also, if that Old Testament-era Proverb was condemning alcohol consumption AT ALL, rather than it's misuse, why was the rest of the Old Testament so positive towards the consumption of alcohol (Deuteronomy 14:26, Exodus 29:40, to name just a few verses)?

Also, at the Wedding at Cana:

John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk*, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

* FYI, the Greek word used here is:

μεθύω (Methu&#333 - pronounced 'meth-oo'-o, which means:

to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en)

You can check this if you don't believe me.

Tell me, what the heck is Jesus doing turning water into undeniably alcoholic wine, if he disapproved of it?

 

[repentant]

Sometimes, I correlate this with all the Egyptian pride we have in our Coptic churches. My father always told me, "It is a shame that you as an Egyptian should get a 99 in the mathematics. We Egyptians build the pyramids!"

Yea, with the help of aliens...