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The Early Church Fathers and Alcohol/Wine

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ufonium2

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Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a direct correlation (or maybe a causation, if you want to consider it) around the advent of non-alcoholic wine in Communion among some Protestants and Welch's brand grape juice coming onto the scene? :scratch:

I think you're right, but I don't remember the details.
 
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RobNJ

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Unified in Christ

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Christ is Risen!

"Lidell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek" gives 128 different words, related to wine. Of these words, only 2 (if I'm not mistaken) appear in the N.Testament: οίνος (wine->fermented grape juice) & γλεύκος (literally must, stum). It's interesting though that most English versions of NT, translate γλεύκος as "new wine":
e.g. acts 2:13
ετεροι δε διαχλευαζοντες ελεγον οτι γλευκους μεμεστωμενοι εισιν
Others mocking said, They are full of new wine

Canon 32 of the Quinsext Council (in Trullo, 692 AD)
Since it has come to our knowledge that in the region of Armenia they offer wine only on the Holy Table, those who celebrate the unbloody sacrifice not mixing water with it, adducing, as authority thereof, John Chrysostom, who says in his interpretation of the Gospel according to St. Matthew:
"And wherefore did he not drink water after he was risen again, but wine? To pluck up by the roots another wicked heresy. For since there are certain who use water in the Mysteries to show that both when he delivered the mysteries he had given wine and that when he had risen and was setting before them a mere meal without mysteries, he used wine, 'of the fruit,' says he, 'of the vine.' But a vine produces wine, not water." And from this they think the doctor overthrows the admixture of water in the holy sacrifice. Now, lest on the point from this time forward they be held in ignorance, we open out the orthodox opinion of the Father. For since there was an ancient and wicked heresy of the Hydroparastatae (i.e., of those who offered water), who instead of wine used water in their sacrifice, this divine, confuting the detestable teaching of such a heresy, and showing that it is directly opposed to Apostolic tradition, asserted that which has just been quoted. For to his own church, where the pastoral administration had been given him, he ordered that water mixed with wine should be used at the unbloody sacrifice, so as to show forth the mingling of the blood and water which for the life of the whole world and for the redemption of its sins, was poured forth from the precious side of Christ our Redeemer; and moreover in every church where spiritual light has shined this divinely given order is observed.
For also James, the brother, according to the flesh, of Christ our God, to whom the throne of the church of Jerusalem first was entrusted, and Basil, the Archbishop of the Church of Caesarea, whose glory has spread through all the world, when they delivered to us directions for the mystical sacrifice in writing, declared that the holy chalice is consecrated in the Divine Liturgy with water and wine. And the holy Fathers who assembled at Carthage provided in these express terms: "That in the holy Mysteries nothing besides the body and blood of the Lord be offered, as the Lord himself laid down, that is bread and wine mixed with water." Therefore if any bishop or presbyter shall not perform the holy action according to what has been handed down by the Apostles, and shall not offer the sacrifice with wine mixed with water, let him be deposed, as imperfectly showing forth the mystery and innovating on the things which have been handed down.
 
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kamikat

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Alcohol is no more a sin than chocolate. Alcohol, when taken too much, can lead to drunkeness. Chocolate, when taken too much, can lead toward gluttony. In moderation, both are acceptable. I had never heard that the mere drinking of wine is a sin until I came to CF.
 
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AJB4

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The reason I'm even asking is because my sister's 21st birthday is coming up in June, and even though she and her husband both go to the (ultra-)conservative Church of Christ, and believe that Jesus drank Grape Juice, they for some reason asked my Mum (excommunicated from the CoC) to pay for the bar-tab. My Dad (a former alcoholic), who also goes to the CoC, also believes in grape juice and basically believes that if one drinks alcohol, one isn't a Christian.

I quote: "Why are they having alcohol - I thought they were Christians?"
 
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AJB4

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Why are they judging your sister? I thought they were Christians?
That's an interesting thought.

Just adding to that, my other sister (17 year old) who goes to the CoC (my whole family go there), says she won't come to the 21st birthday if there's alcohol there.
 
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Canadian75

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I had never heard that the mere drinking of wine is a sin until I came to CF.


Ditto. It so blows my mind that people can read John and see Jesus turn water into wine and think it was grape juice. The jews at the wedding wouldn't have been impressed.


Peace.
 
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Protoevangel

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For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '
- Luke 7:33-34

So, did they accused Jesus of being a drunkard because he was drinking fruit juice?

:doh:


No AS, it's not a silly question for you to ask. Our sarcasm is directed at the people who really should know better, but continue to promote these asinine doctrines.
 
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repentant

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Hrm. So I have conjured up a silly question. If it is illegal for those under 21 to have alcohol, then is giving the Eucharist to them illegal? o_O

No, or else we wouldn't be using real wine here in the states. Wouldn't surpise me in the future if they try to ban this in Churches. I think Kentucky..or is it Kansas? any way, one of the K states is trying to pass such a law, and in it they would arrest Priests and parents when the Eucharist would be given to them. But it is such a little bit, and watered down anyway..


Actually, even if it was illegal, I think we still would use it anyway..
 
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Dewi Sant

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I find myself saying this more and more everyday:

"This is Most Ridiculous!"


Alcohol is not a sin.
The Protestants on this side of the Atlantic don't consider it to be, though, methodists don't agree with it, but Methodism was also very closely linked with the temperance movement which brings me on to my next point.

I believe, though please correct me if I'm wrong. That this whole idea of alcohol being evil is largely from the act of alcoholic prohibition in the U.S. which would explain why it is more prevalent in that country.

As others have said, to have only one or two glasses is acceptable, but to have many, is a sin for by then, it is a passion.
Anything in excess is a sin.

Too much bread is a sin, it can make you feel ill and cause obesity.
Is bread a sin?
 
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Dewi Sant

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No, or else we wouldn't be using real wine here in the states. Wouldn't surpise me in the future if they try to ban this in Churches. I think Kentucky..or is it Kansas? any way, one of the K states is trying to pass such a law, and in it they would arrest Priests and parents when the Eucharist would be given to them. But it is such a little bit, and watered down anyway..


Actually, even if it was illegal, I think we still would use it anyway..

We are asked to obey the law of the land...but, if we always obeyed it, Orthodoxy in Russia would be extinct.


I think we should fortify our churches, have crossbowmen on the turrets and varangian guards at the doorways :). (that'll make the police think twice:D )
 
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Dewi Sant

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Infact, it is traditional to have Varangian guards in presence, as they are the defenders of the emperor.

Christ is the emperor, He needs defending...plus, it is an excuse to weild a massive double headed axe and dress in cool medieval kit!
 
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repentant

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We are asked to obey the law of the land...but, if we always obeyed it, Orthodoxy in Russia would be extinct.


I think we should fortify our churches, have crossbowmen on the turrets and varangian guards at the doorways :). (that'll make the police think twice:D )

Yes we are to obey the law of the land, but not above God's Law..
 
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repentant

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Infact, it is traditional to have Varangian guards in presence, as they are the defenders of the emperor.

Christ is the emperor, He needs defending...plus, it is an excuse to weild a massive double headed axe and dress in cool medieval kit!

Yea the Vatican has them, why not us?
 
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Greg the byzantine

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