The Early Church Fathers and Alcohol/Wine

[Philothei]

While everyone is getting tipsy is this thread....lol.... and going Greek too!!

also: OINOS is wine

Grape juice did not exist in the form we know it today like others said all wine juice would ferment... ask your chemistry teacher at school... it would either turn into wine ...or into vinegar if it was not added yeast.
http://hainle.com/fermentation_primer.html

"any fruit, including wine grapes, will spontaneously ferment without added yeast"....

All mediterenean people used wine. There is no question about it, not grape juice.

Now not all Jewish people were drunks and furthermore they used it in moderation. Wine has healing properties too. Like olive oil it was used to heal wounds (like we see at the parable of the good Samaritan). It sterilizes and kills germs.
We can also find archeological evidence that prove Christ (like all semitic people) used wine.

When I find any sources I will post it. But I am afraid that these sources are hard to find given the propaganda that Christ used "grape juice" from Welch's finest vineyards...
God bless,
Philothei

 

[Philothei]

This is what I posted at the Restoration Movement section:
______________________________________________
Jesus himself drank wine.

Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!


If Jesus did not drink real, alcoholic wine, but grape juice, then answer me this:

Why would they accuse Jesus of being a 'winebibber' for drinking fruit juice?

Also, if that Old Testament-era Proverb was condemning alcohol consumption AT ALL, rather than it's misuse, why was the rest of the Old Testament so positive towards the consumption of alcohol (Deuteronomy 14:26, Exodus 29:40, to name just a few verses)?

Also, at the Wedding at Cana:

John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk*, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

* FYI, the Greek word used here is:

μεθύω (Methu&#333 - pronounced 'meth-oo'-o, which means:

to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en)

You can check this if you don't believe me.

Tell me, what the heck is Jesus doing turning water into undeniably alcoholic wine, if he disapproved of it?

AJB4 i will attempt to answer your question about the miracle in Cana. The verb "methao" means to get drunk but it also means to get tipsy. You can talk like a drunk or be tipsy. It is a wedding and we are in between Meditterenean people of course will get tipsy, that does not mean they are drunks. They do not drink like fish day in and day out.

People who are not used to wine they get tipsy fast too and apparently Jewish people used to drink during feast days, weddings, etc. Semitic people took pride in their family life and values, and they also knew that in moderation all these are gifts from God. Like others before said the psalms make many many references to the wine and food too. We believe that God gave us all these as gifts to use them with discernment and wisdom. No where in the cannons says that wine is forbidden, except fasting days. Give me any evidence of the fathers that talk of forbitting the consumption of alchohol. Fathers rebuke all sins such as alchoholism and gluttony but not the moderate consumption of those gifts.

Hope that helps.
P.

 

[VickiY]

Much of this error arose from Prohibition. Also, the idea that drink was sinful did not arise till much much later, in the late middle ages, when the problem was that distilled spirits (especially gin) cost less than food did in the citites, so the poor were becoming both drunkards AND malnourished, and all the attendant vices that urban life in high poverty areas seems to spawn cropped up...crime, prostitution, etc. This lead to a crusade to stop drink (for the poor, of course, other rules applied to the rich). Prior to this, water was so unsanitary that no one would actually drink it, so even children had beer or wine, usually beer, with their breakfasts, etc. Beer and wine were not considered the problem, but with the arrival of gin, the philanthropists were quite concerned...so to combat the cheap spirits, they sought to ban them as sinful. Nowadays, of course, the government would merely tax the daylights out of it, so there would be no question of people buying a cup of gin for a penny, rather than spending that penny on food.

 

[minasoliman]

Much of this error arose from Prohibition. Also, the idea that drink was sinful did not arise till much much later, in the late middle ages, when the problem was that distilled spirits (especially gin) cost less than food did in the citites, so the poor were becoming both drunkards AND malnourished, and all the attendant vices that urban life in high poverty areas seems to spawn cropped up...crime, prostitution, etc. This lead to a crusade to stop drink (for the poor, of course, other rules applied to the rich). Prior to this, water was so unsanitary that no one would actually drink it, so even children had beer or wine, usually beer, with their breakfasts, etc. Beer and wine were not considered the problem, but with the arrival of gin, the philanthropists were quite concerned...so to combat the cheap spirits, they sought to ban them as sinful. Nowadays, of course, the government would merely tax the daylights out of it, so there would be no question of people buying a cup of gin for a penny, rather than spending that penny on food.

And I thought the prohibition came about because Congress was drunk

j/k...but I guess that explains the hastiness behind the decision.

 

[minasoliman]

Yea, with the help of aliens...

lol

I have a really good friend who accuses Egyptians of being aliens themselves!

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I wish I was with you in person.

I'd introduce you to wine.

Each person has a different pallette and therefore wishes for different wine.

Myself, in red I like heavy grapes with much body.
In white, I like a dry, crisp grape...the same goes for fruit wine. I love Cranberry wine.

For a beginner, I always suggest the Valpollicella grape (red). It is sweet and fruity and not too startling on the taste.

Now, I have heard of a wine used for communion in Orthdoxy which is made traditionally in Cyprus.
It is very very sweet and fruity (but very high volume too).

We looked for the Valpollicella, but couldn't find it in our local Pick N Save. What else would be good for someone not used to the taste of alcohol? And how is sherry or port? I've always wondered.....

 

[Dust and Ashes]

A friend from Church makes wine with Welches grape juice, which was developed to replace fermented wine for communion.

 

[Shubunkin]

In Science class we all stuck Welche's grape juice in a thermos bottle, added a measured amount of yeast, stuck it in the fridge, and over night the stuff turned into wine, after popping off the top of the thermos!! It tasted pretty good, too, as I recall. Such was a high school experiment. I wonder how that would go over nowadays?

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Now, I have heard of a wine used for communion in Orthdoxy which is made traditionally in Cyprus.
It is very very sweet and fruity (but very high volume too).

That's the wine our parish uses for The Holy Communion.

Commandaria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandaria

 

[ufonium2]

Such was a high school experiment. I wonder how that would go over nowadays?

It would go over fine in Kentucky. My high school principal brought moonshine to school one day. I'm just walking down the hall, minding my own business, and he's like "Hey ufonium2! I think this bottled water is contaminated, smell it and see what you think." So I did, and it burned my nose-hairs off! So the principal is rolling around laughing cause he just tricked a student into snorting moonshine. How come the accreditation people never visit on those days?

 

[Photios]

It would go over fine in Kentucky. My high school principal brought moonshine to school one day. I'm just walking down the hall, minding my own business, and he's like "Hey ufonium2! I think this bottled water is contaminated, smell it and see what you think." So I did, and it burned my nose-hairs off! So the principal is rolling around laughing cause he just tricked a student into snorting moonshine. How come the accreditation people never visit on those days?

Cause the principal will know when to expect them .

A guy I work with actually made a still for his metal shop class project in high school.

 

[RobNJ]

And, in today's email:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/KeatingDrink.php