3abn Continued

[Cliff2]

It's rather simple.

• You need alleged victims who are willing to brunt the criticism and bear the shame of coming forward and testifying.
• You need alleged victims that will do that within the time limits given by the statute of limitations in the states in question.
• You need alleged victims who will not buckle under the pressure or bend under the manipulation brought to bear by Danny and Tommy.

Well sorry pal, that is not a good enough answer.

There are so many of these alleged victims and now you are trying to tell me that after about 12 months not opne of them will step up to the plate and make an official complaint.

I doubt if that is the case.

Tell me, what is in it for you as you seem to be on a one man whitch hunt against 3ABN.

Come clean and tell us why you are so involved.

I have nothing at all to do with 3ABN and have no maxe to grind one way or another.

So what is your involvment in trying to bring 3ABN down.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

I appreciate your honest answer. That leads me to ask though, in all fairness, why haven't you spoke up here on bsda when people have went on and on about 3abn allowing children to be in danger? You knew that wasn't the case but said nothing.

Also I read where you only wanted an apology> I saw the letter on joy's site that is allegedly from Tommy. He gave you one. But I was told that besides that, you received an apology face to face and what might have been an offer of counseling for you if you felt you had been harmed. You have stated several times you were 19 or 20 years old at the time of the alleged incidents which was said to have happened 20 or more years ago. So, If it is true that you had a face to face apology, an offer for counseling and a letter of apology, what exactly are you seeking and why did you go public with this? We know it is not for crimnal charges since you were not underage and you were not threatened or forced so I am just trying to understand what you want? Biblically speaking once you were ask for forgiveness (if this is true) and some kind of restitution offered (counseling) then it seems to me it should have ended there. Definitely not coming on a public forum with these allegations then saying you just want an apology when you supposedly already had that. If you just wanted to punish you have more than succeeded. Having one's life, mistakes, sins and alleged sins on a public forum for all to see would be the height of humiliation and shame. If that was your intent, then congratulations, you have done well....

tomatoe,
Why do you attempt to minimize what has happened to dclem? You claim he was not forced and yet Tommy himself says in his emailed "confession" "and I also told her that you resisted every attempt that I ever made."

Healing from sexual abuse of by someone you trust is a long process. As the victim works through it and steps farther and farther away from the control the abuser has had over him, the manipulation becomes more evident. The facade of trust and friendship that the abuser has carefully built begins to crumble and the anger builds.

As this process continues, the victim's emotions go through various stages, so what the victim perceives he needs from the abuser to make things "right" is likely to change with time.

I can't tell you what those stages are for others for I am not a professional counselor. I just know from personal experience that this is what happens and I have watched as dclem has begun his journey through the process as well.

You would do well to back off and allow him to continue to heal instead of criticizing him for doing so.

 

[Jimlarmore]

tomatoe,
if tommy is suffering, he brought it on himself. that is not the victims fault. it sounds like you are trying to make them feel guilty because tommy is going through a hard time. have you thought about how hard a time these boys have gone through and how hard a time they will continue to go through? it doesn't matter to me if tommy apologised and made offers of counseling to his victims.

An attempt at righting a wrong should never be cast aside. If we have the love of Christ in our hearts we should always be willing to forgive as Christ told us to. If Christ assumed this position or posture for us we would be doomed to death. The reality is Christ said if we want forgiveness we are to forgive.

he could buy them each a lotus and that would not make things all better. he should be punished for what he's done (alleged) by civil law. any suffering he is going through right now is of his own doing and these young men are NOT responsible for that. they have a right to yell from the highest hill for as long as they want in my opinion. whatever they have to do,
that helps them recover as long as it's honest, is fine in my book. This is not their shame. It belongs to their abuser.

I can only speak for my impression of the one I have communicated with but he seems to be ok right now. He certainly does not feel the need to have councelling of any kind and he is very adament about that. He actually said it was no big deal at one point but now has made it a big deal in a lot of ways. I think he is a pawn of the players in this saga to keep the fires of denigration going. As far as punishing Tommy goes I think that needs to be done or persued by the victims not us. It's not our place to do what we are doing here. What we have done here without proper evidence to do is despicable to me. I have not seen the Lord glorified in much of this at all. Instead I have seen nothing but hate, contention and mud slinging. Who do you think that really glorifies?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Pickle]

I'm not trying to bring 3ABN down.

I see from your profile that you are from Australia. This sort of discussion came up at Maritime too, with a fellow named Weetbix also from Australia. Weetbix had a hard time understanding how American law works, and thus you may have a difficulty too.

Weetbix didn't seem to understand the concept of statute of limitations. If the statute of limitations has run out, which differs from state to state, no charges can be filed, period. I believe in Illinois child molestation charges now have to be filed by the time the alleged victim turns 28, or the perpetrator walks, scott free.

Roger Clem came forward in 2003. He was 16 in 1988. Thus he did not come forward until it was too late to press charges.

Personally, I think it inappropriate for anyone to criticize any of these guys for being so slow to come forward and press charges unless they themselves have been victimized and know what it's like to come forward.

But frankly, I do not know who all has talked to the authorities and who hasn't, in either IL or VA. I know Brad Dunning and his relatives did in 1982 or 1983 or thereabouts. And the letter suspending Tommy's ordination in 1985 refers to some sort of investigation at that time.

 

[Jimlarmore]

But frankly, I do not know who all has talked to the authorities and who hasn't, in either IL or VA. I know Brad Dunning and his relatives did in 1982 or 1983 or thereabouts. And the letter suspending Tommy's ordination in 1985 refers to some sort of investigation at that time.

The fact that no charges were filed may in my opinion be significant.

Bob, I want to know why you didn't start with the authorities when you came upon this information initially? It seems to me that if valid and legitimate claims are going to be made you should start with what the authorities know. Otherwise what you may be doing could be unfounded and false based on hear-say. How many of the victims have you spoken to personally? How much first hand information are you actually in possession of? You have taken a big risk my friend and if it turns out the majority of this is trumped up you will loose all credibility in the future.

I have said to you indirectly as you listened in and Gailon Joy directly on the phone that the situation with Tommy is the only possible legitimate issue you guys have. Everything else is gossip that no one can know for sure. I am still maintaining that position, however, if there's obvious compromises in the truth in what you have put out here then that is just plain wrong. The real truth will come out eventually.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Pickle]

Jim,

I've never been in law enforcement, and thus when I first got Dryden's letter in August about things that had happened way back, and heard Dryden tell about Mike Riva's threatening reply, it never dawned on me to contact the authorities.

Later, when someone told me that we could be liable if we didn't, I inquired about that and was informed that that was incorrect.

I have personally spoken with at least 5 alleged victims, 4 of whom claim to have been under 18 at the time it happened. I've also spoken with their family members and various "members" of the congregation.

The Tommy allegations are not the only legitimate issue we have. There are a few others.

 

[Jimlarmore]

libel definition

n. 1. a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
b. The act of presenting such material to the public.

2. The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.

tr.v. li·beled or li·belled, li·bel·ing or li·bel·ling, li·bels To publish a libel about (a person). See Synonyms at malign.

malign definition

tr.v. ma·ligned, ma·lign·ing, ma·ligns To make evil, harmful, and often untrue statements about; speak evil of.

adj. 1. Evil in disposition, nature, or intent.
2. Evil in influence; injurious.
3. Having or showing malice or ill will; malevolent.

malign synonyms

verb
To make defamatory statements about: asperse, backbite, calumniate, defame, slander, slur, tear down, traduce, vilify. Law: libel.[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Idiom: [/SIZE][/FONT]cast aspersions on. See attack, crimes, law

In a law suit there will be evidence presented that is called "discovery" evidence that will make or break a case concerning libel. Unless you have documented those contacts you claim you made then you may be libel for slander against Tommy. As far as Danny and Linda goes most of that is going to fit into a libel case and can most likely be proved as such in a court of law. Primarily because of the nature of the way all of this was all presented. The fact you never have known for sure most of the information you have put out puts you in jeopardy my friend. I hope you have a good attorney.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Sorry double post

 

[Pickle]

Jim,

There are things I have known for sure.

I have known for sure that Danny wrote me and said he wasn't going to disclose what he made on royalties until at least after the settlement, thus confirming what Gailon said about his trying to hide those amounts from Linda.

I have known for sure that Danny wrote on July 17, 2004, that he wasn't sure whether or not Linda had yet committed fornication, thus indicating that he did not have biblical grounds for his divorce a month earlier.

Were you thinking of something in particular when you refer to things I did not know for sure?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim,

There are things I have known for sure.

I have known for sure that Danny wrote me and said he wasn't going to disclose what he made on royalties until at least after the settlement, thus confirming what Gailon said about his trying to hide those amounts from Linda.

I have known for sure that Danny wrote on July 17, 2004, that he wasn't sure whether or not Linda had yet committed fornication, thus indicating that he did not have biblical grounds for his divorce a month earlier.

Were you thinking of something in particular when you refer to things I did not know for sure?

All of the things that are libel will be brought out in court Bob. From what I have read of some of your posts you take things out of context and use partial sentences to draw conclusions on and then go about parading that as a proof of your accusations, i.e. the hiding the gun as a basis for the divorce, etc. Also, in a law suit the intent will be looked at in depth. Attorneys are very good at bringing out the facts and what's really behind all of this, it will happen, it will come to pass.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[dclem]

I appreciate your honest answer. That leads me to ask though, in all fairness, why haven't you spoke up here on bsda when people have went on and on about 3abn allowing children to be in danger? You knew that wasn't the case but said nothing.

Also I read where you only wanted an apology> I saw the letter on joy's site that is allegedly from Tommy. He gave you one. But I was told that besides that, you received an apology face to face and what might have been an offer of counseling for you if you felt you had been harmed. You have stated several times you were 19 or 20 years old at the time of the alleged incidents which was said to have happened 20 or more years ago. So, If it is true that you had a face to face apology, an offer for counseling and a letter of apology, what exactly are you seeking and why did you go public with this? We know it is not for crimnal charges since you were not underage and you were not threatened or forced so I am just trying to understand what you want? Biblically speaking once you were ask for forgiveness (if this is true) and some kind of restitution offered (counseling) then it seems to me it should have ended there. Definitely not coming on a public forum with these allegations then saying you just want an apology when you supposedly already had that. If you just wanted to punish you have more than succeeded. Having one's life, mistakes, sins and alleged sins on a public forum for all to see would be the height of humiliation and shame. If that was your intent, then congratulations, you have done well....

You're twisting my words. I didn't say they WEREN'T in danger, either. I never said either way.

As far as your other comments, I don't owe you or anyone else any explanation for what I did. I have reasons that I came forward, and it was an agonizing decision. I don't need anyone trying to second guess me.

I was never offered counseling, and wouldn't have accepted it then or now. NO ONE can be effective with a sexual abuse victim unless they have been sexually abused themselves. I don't need to talk to someone who has decided that they are somehow in a position to "understand" because they happen to have a degree.

Stay off the counseling subject. It's a BIG sore spot with me.

 

[dclem]

Well sorry pal, that is not a good enough answer.

There are so many of these alleged victims and now you are trying to tell me that after about 12 months not opne of them will step up to the plate and make an official complaint.

I doubt if that is the case.

Tell me, what is in it for you as you seem to be on a one man whitch hunt against 3ABN.

Come clean and tell us why you are so involved.

I have nothing at all to do with 3ABN and have no maxe to grind one way or another.

So what is your involvment in trying to bring 3ABN down.

Have you ever been sexually abused? If not, you need to keep quiet about this. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[dclem]

tomatoe,
Why do you attempt to minimize what has happened to dclem? You claim he was not forced and yet Tommy himself says in his emailed "confession" "and I also told her that you resisted every attempt that I ever made."

Healing from sexual abuse of by someone you trust is a long process. As the victim works through it and steps farther and farther away from the control the abuser has had over him, the manipulation becomes more evident. The facade of trust and friendship that the abuser has carefully built begins to crumble and the anger builds.

As this process continues, the victim's emotions go through various stages, so what the victim perceives he needs from the abuser to make things "right" is likely to change with time.

I can't tell you what those stages are for others for I am not a professional counselor. I just know from personal experience that this is what happens and I have watched as dclem has begun his journey through the process as well.

You would do well to back off and allow him to continue to heal instead of criticizing him for doing so.

This is exactly why you know what you're talking about. You're NOT a professional counselor. You don't have a programmed, cookie-cutter response to everything. You speak from experience with a truly educated answer.

Thank you for speaking the truth.

 

[Rosie55]

This is exactly why you know what you're talking about. You're NOT a professional counselor. You don't have a programmed, cookie-cutter response to everything. You speak from experience with a truly educated answer.

Thank you for speaking the truth.

dclem, I have also been sexually abused as a little girl and I am not a counselor. Nor did I ever go to a counselor about it.

It didn't take me months and months to get over it. When I became an adult and gave my heart to God, a lot of healing happened right then and there. I forgave my assailant and went on with my life.

There is a time to forgive and let God take care of it. He knows just how to deal with abusers. And if they don't pay for their crimes in this life, they most certainly will eventually because judgment will come.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

This is exactly why you know what you're talking about. You're NOT a professional counselor. You don't have a programmed, cookie-cutter response to everything. You speak from experience with a truly educated answer.

Thank you for speaking the truth.

dclem,
You are most welcome. Don't ever second guess the path you are on. The truth will set you free.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

dclem, I have also been sexually abused as a little girl and I am not a counselor. Nor did I ever go to a counselor about it.

It didn't take me months and months to get over it. When I became an adult and gave my heart to God, a lot of healing happened right then and there. I forgave my assailant and went on with my life.

There is a time to forgive and let God take care of it. He knows just how to deal with abusers. And if they don't pay for their crimes in this life, they most certainly will eventually because judgment will come.

Rosie55,
You said it didn't take months and months to get over the sexual abuse you experienced as a child and yet you said that, as an adult, when you gave your heart to God a lot of your healing took place right then. Do you realized that it was years and years from the time you were abused until you became and adult and forgave?

I share much the same experience for it wasn't until I began a real relationship with our Lord that I was able to forgive and truly begin to start healing. Two of my abusers were dead before I reached my adult years so it was a lot easier to place the abuse in God's hands.

However, there is a huge difference between forgiveness of the abuser and silence about the abuse. If you went on with your life after forgiving the abuser without speaking out to ensure that no other child would become a victim, in my opinion you are still under his control to a degree.

 

[Pickle]

... i.e. the hiding the gun as a basis for the divorce, etc.

I don't recall ever saying that Linda's hiding his gun was a basis for the divorce. But I have pointed out that Danny himself said that it was impossible for Linda to save the marriage after she followed the advice of her family and hid his gun.

Of course, he painted the situation in that email as if their relationship had deteriorated to that point, when in reality there is another choice: Linda may have felt unsafe and hid his gun for that reason.

But do note: Even if your life is in danger, that isn't biblical grounds for divorce. Separation would appear necessary, but not divorce, unless there is no way to settle property and child custody issues in any other way in that jurisdiction.

But as far as attorneys and such go, do you think that possibly Walt and Danny could be in trouble for libel and/or defamation for some of the things they've said about Linda? What about their intent?

 

[Jimlarmore]

dclem,

In your statement on this abuse didn't you say there was no actual sexual contact but a request for such by Tommy? Something about a skin condition on a certain part of the body that would bleed or something?

 

[Jimlarmore]

I don't recall ever saying that Linda's hiding his gun was a basis for the divorce. But I have pointed out that Danny himself said that it was impossible for Linda to save the marriage after she followed the advice of her family and hid his gun.

It's a part of your four part proof that Danny is a liar. You maybe should be real familiar with what you have written sir.

But as far as attorneys and such go, do you think that possibly Walt and Danny could be in trouble for libel and/or defamation for some of the things they've said about Linda? What about their intent?

Have you been put on retainers to represent Linda in a civil law suit Bob? If so then all of this makes perfect sense, if not it doesn't. Did Linda ask you to do all of this defaming for her Bob? Just curious.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[dclem]

dclem,

In your statement on this abuse didn't you say there was no actual sexual contact but a request for such by Tommy? Something about a skin condition on a certain part of the body that would bleed or something?

No, you're thinking of another victim's statement. There WAS contact in my case.