I Received a shocker tonight in Bible Study!

[yeshuasavedme]

Him being seduced by mens teachings is very possible but him being a man of the Word is not a question of mine. I know he is and if you knew him by all the other things he teaches and preaches you wouldn't be talking about him in that kind of way.


I know many pastors I have had both agreement with and disagreement with but who am I to say that they are not anointed because they don't agree with everything I agree with?

My pastor wasn't preaching this out of the pulpit. I have been a regular member of the church for 1 1/2 years now and he has never preached on eschatological theology. My view has always been that men of God, such as pastors, are called into a specific calling. My pastors calling is to teach and preach on grace and salvation, not eschatological theology. After tonight I can now say that I haven't meet a pastor or priest yet who I have agreed with 100% of everything they believe or say. I thought my current pastor was someone who I was in 100% agreement with but tonight I have found out differently. Again, this is a disappointment to me but am I going to run out of the church screaming that he isn't an anointed man of God all because of this? NO, God forbid it!


Again, this was a bible study group of a mear 8 people altogether. This is not about my pastor standing in the pulpit preaching to the whole congregation. My pastor said that he wouldn't preach this as he knows that whatever eschatological belief someone may have it can become a stumbling block for some.

Okay....

I am old and long for the days when I was a youth in the Bible belt of the south and the preacher would never dare get up without a word from the LORD 'the anointing'.
then, later, when I was born again and attended Church in the Northwest, my first preachers had the same fear of God as that of my youth.
It is rare today to find men in the pulpit who know what the anointing is, and what the fear of God is in the respect of speaking a word which He did not give.

A man who fears God does not give out his own words and opinions while in the pulpit, though he has his own words and opinions, he does not dare to speak that which is not from the LORD while preaching the Word -and he knows the difference, whether he is in one denomination or another [for God is no respector of persons or de-nominations].

 

[Jipsah]

nephilimiyr, your pastor is in error. he is studying a man-made system of beliefs. if i were you i would leave this church and never look back.

This comes under the heading of "if it ain't what my church teaches it isn't of God", doesn't it?

The fact of the matter is that orthodox preterism sticks far closer to what Scripture literally says than does dispensationalism. For instance, OPs don't have any need to change Daniel's 490 years to >2500 years in order to make their doctrine "work", nor do they have to ignore the fulfillment of certain prophecies because their exegesis doesn't admit of those prophecies having been fulfilled yet. We're content to let Scripture say what it says and history to be what it is without trying to bend either one to fit our doctrinal presuppositions. Dispensationalists can't say that; at least with a straight face.

Your pastor is sending his flock down the wrong path into the wrong pasture. i guarantee that teaching this doctrine is not lead from God's spirit

Because God's spirit agrees with the doctrine your church has put together. Got it.

your pastor has become a false teacher and has "gone a whoring" as God puts it, after other gods.

So unless I believe that when Daniel talked about 490 years he (or God, or both) were wrong and it really meant >2500 years, then I'm "whoring... after other gods", zat right? Wow, that's an interesting concept. Nonsensical, silly, absurd, and ridiculous (not to mention self-important, self-agrandizing, and generally nasty) but interesting.

i'm no angel but as one of those staunch believers, i refuse to sway. for me it's God's word or nothing.

"God's word" being whatever interpretation your denomination and/or church and/or preacher decide to hammer into the Scripture. Got it.

you make your own decisions of course.

Let's hope so.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

This comes under the heading of "if it ain't what my church teaches it isn't of God", doesn't it?

The fact of the matter is that orthodox preterism sticks far closer to what Scripture literally says than does dispensationalism. For instance, OPs don't have any need to change Daniel's 490 years to >2500 years in order to make their doctrine "work", nor do they have to ignore the fulfillment of certain prophecies because their exegesis doesn't admit of those prophecies having been fulfilled yet. We're content to let Scripture say what it says and history to be what it is without trying to bend either one to fit our doctrinal presuppositions. Dispensationalists can't say that; at least with a straight face.

Because God's spirit agrees with the doctrine your church has put together. Got it.

So unless I believe that when Daniel talked about 490 years he (or God, or both) were wrong and it really meant >2500 years, then I'm "whoring... after other gods", zat right? Wow, that's an interesting concept. Nonsensical, silly, absurd, and ridiculous (not to mention self-important, self-agrandizing, and generally nasty) but interesting.

"God's word" being whatever interpretation your denomination and/or church and/or preacher decide to hammer into the Scripture. Got it.

Let's hope so.

Wrong Jipsah.
As God is no respector of persons or denominations, the anointed man, speaking by the Spirit of God says no denominational stuff under that anointing, but preaches Jesus Christ, only.

I am not reformed in doctrine and do not even believe Calvin died redeemed -that is my opinion after reading the man's life and actions- but I listen to and love to hear Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones preach the Wod of God under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

Dr L-Jones knew "the anointing" and knew what the LORD gave him to speak by His Spirit.

I used to wonder why the preacher at the Fundamentalist Baptist Church I attended as a youth shone so, as he delivered the Word of the LORD by the anointing of the Spirit, which as a youth I did not understand, and many's the old time Southern Baptist preacher who has sat out a meeting because the LORD had not given him a word -and he dare not presume.

That, sir, is the meaning of the anointing of the Spirit, which may happen to any called preacher of the Word who fears God and seeks to speak the "Word in season" to those who hear him -by the Spirit of God, and not by his own imaginations.

 

[Tyndale]

I believe we are currently in revelations chapter 18.

 

[Parousia]

I actually thought that John was measuring either the Temple in heaven (he was ordered to "come up here") or the Third Temple on earth (I believe that he could have actually seen the future).

John did see the future--AD 70! He wrote the Revelation prior to that and was shown the things "which must SHORTLY take place" (1:1) because the time was [then] NEAR (1:3).

 

[Parousia]

Why? The fact of the OT is that there is to be a temple exactly as Ezekiel described it, which has not yet been built. -Your pastor has been seduced by men's writings and is not a man of the Word -and that is too sad.


I have a question:
In the Word, a preacher called by God is to deliver God's word under His anointing, and will never, while "parsing the Word", under that anointing, contradict Scripture, so how is it that men can call themselves preachers and pastor Churches and contradict Scripture?

The only answer is that they are not speaking in the pulpit by the Spirit.
A man does not have to understand all mysteries to be saved and called, but a called preacher will never speak his own words in the pulpit, yet the pulpits are filled with men who have never had a Word from the LORD in their lives, and so their congregations have never heard a word from the LORD through them, but rather ramblings of men's own philosophies.

What is sad are those who have been seduced to believe in a yet future temple where animal sacrifices will be resumed! What a slap in the face of Jesus who provided the perfect sacrifice for all time.

How it grieves me to even picture a time when Jesus would physically exist again on this earth and have to bear the stench of totally ineffective sacrifices being made around Him. That's what sad!

Not even Abraham longed for what futurists long for! Nor did any of the others of faith of Hebrews 11! They recognized the incompleteness and the shadowy nature of the Old Covenant. Abraham himself was not content--even in the land of promise! Why? "He waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11:10).

What about the other champions of faith? "These all died in faith NOT HAVING RECEIVED the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH!" (Heb. 11:13). They all sought a "homeland." Modern Israel with a rebuilt temple with re-instituted sacrifices? No!

"And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But NOW they desire a BETTER, that is, a HEAVENLY country." God "HAS PREPARED a city for them" (Heb. 11:15).

Why do you long FOR them something they themselves never longed for?

I commend this pastor for allowing Scripture to dictate his beliefs, in spite of the opposition and in spite of the cost, rather than being seduced by the traditions and teachings of men.

Futurists (innocently or not) do put our Lord to open shame when they teach of a rebuilt temple and a resumed sacrificial system. Jesus pronounced woes upon that nation of Jews who were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was part of that judgment. It will NOT be rebuilt!

 

[Lady Goodnews]

What is sad are those who have been seduced to believe in a yet future temple where animal sacrifices will be resumed! What a slap in the face of Jesus who provided the perfect sacrifice for all time.

How it grieves me to even picture a time when Jesus would physically exist again on this earth and have to bear the stench of totally ineffective sacrifices being made around Him. That's what sad!

Not even Abraham longed for what futurists long for! Nor did any of the others of faith of Hebrews 11! They recognized the incompleteness and the shadowy nature of the Old Covenant. Abraham himself was not content--even in the land of promise! Why? "He waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11:10).

What about the other champions of faith? "These all died in faith NOT HAVING RECEIVED the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH!" (Heb. 11:13). They all sought a "homeland." Modern Israel with a rebuilt temple with re-instituted sacrifices? No!

"And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But NOW they desire a BETTER, that is, a HEAVENLY country." God "HAS PREPARED a city for them" (Heb. 11:15).

Why do you long FOR them something they themselves never longed for?

I commend this pastor for allowing Scripture to dictate his beliefs, in spite of the opposition and in spite of the cost, rather than being seduced by the traditions and teachings of men.

Futurists (innocently or not) do put our Lord to open shame when they teach of a rebuilt temple and a resumed sacrificial system. Jesus pronounced woes upon that nation of Jews who were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was part of that judgment. It will NOT be rebuilt!

Amen!

Lady Goodnews,

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

LOL, it made for quite an interesting evening. I didn't argue with them or anything like that but I did let them all know that I was more or less a dispensationalist. They all told me that that was alright and cool and everything and my pastor even told me as well as the group that for whatever eschatological belief someone may have he doesn't believe it should ever become a stumbling block for anyone so he said if that is what I believe then that's ok.

All Christians should allow for variation in different eschatology (end-time views). Even in the 2nd century Justin Martyr wrote that there were different end-time views then, and they agreed to disagree.

That's interesting that your pastor weighs heavily in the early/late date arguments for Revelation. The partial preterist view as a whole an early date for Revelation isn't required. But there are a number of postmillennial Theonomists (and partial preterists) such as Gentry and Chilton whose position requires an early date for Revelation. So it seems most likely that your pastor has been reading Gentry or one of the few other writers who argue for an early date.


LDG

 

[Parousia]

I believe we are currently in revelations chapter 18.

Notice that Revelation 18 precedes Revelation 22 where Jesus clearly says three times "I am coming QUICKLY" (22:7, 12, 20). Notice also that John was shown those things which must SHORTLY take place--1:1; 22:6). And notice also Revelation 1:3--the time is NEAR!

 

[ikester]

Notice that Revelation 18 precedes Revelation 22 where Jesus clearly says three times "I am coming QUICKLY" (22:7, 12, 20). Notice also that John was shown those things which must SHORTLY take place--1:1; 22:6). And notice also Revelation 1:3--the time is NEAR!

notice in the book of Zephaniah....the day of the Lord is at hand....the great day of the Lord is near...it is near and hasten greatly.........

so here we have an Old Testament prophet claiming the day of the Lord is at hand......in which a space of over 400 years occur between Testaments.........was Zephaniah lying or warning people to be prepared every day......as John was......

 

[Renton405]

I believe lotsa of the procphecy in Daniel is already fullfiled.. the messiah would come before the temple would be destructed(70AD) so we already know the messiah has already come....and Daniel was mostly concerned with the Selucid empire, and the terrible horn is Antious Ephiphanes IV from that selucids who was the only one who desecrated the temple by putting a statue of Zeus and sacrificing a pig... Even in the Nechbunezzars dreams he talks about the Medes, persians, and the greeks which already happened 1000s of years ago..

And much of what was talked about in Revelation was the persecution of the Christians in Rome..666 Stands for the roman emporor Nero in greek..The fall of babylon the great was the fall of Rome, it talks about the city being in "purple silk" and being the "City of seven Hills" which could only be Rome..Lotsa bible commentarys talk of the Beast being Nero, or a Nero type figure..

I do believe there can be a deja vu though.. and history repeats itself... I believe around 50% of Revelation is already been done in history(mostly being the persecution of the christians and the fall of Rome)..The bowls and the seals and the trumpets are probably still in the wait and won't happen until the time is ending soon, however if we notice things like lotsa fish dying in the sea, severe weather problems, and increases in war, bugs, and water problems(water turning bitter, etc) we might be in trouble soon




Dispensationilism is such hogwash.. it is a man made system that was created in the 1900s around.. there is no way you can totally "Date and Time" events like a calculator with the bible..The Seventh Day adventists tried it(predicted Jesus would come back in the 1800s) and look what happened.. this should be a good example to how far this has gone..and what mistakes people have fallen into..



Remember in Peter it says a day to God could be a thousands years for us and a day for us a thousand years to God.. this is showing we cannot put God and the bible in any natural human type time... God is outside our reality and time..Just take a look at all these "dispensationilist" type procphecy sites that predicted certain things to happen in the 80s, 90s and 2000.. and now they are saying they "got it wrong" and re-evaluating their views and calculations..it dosen't take a fool to see what error these type of people are into..

 

[lecoop]

Why? The fact of the OT is that there is to be a temple exactly as Ezekiel described it, which has not yet been built. -Your pastor has been seduced by men's writings and is not a man of the Word -and that is too sad.


I have a question:
In the Word, a preacher called by God is to deliver God's word under His anointing, and will never, while "parsing the Word", under that anointing, contradict Scripture, so how is it that men can call themselves preachers and pastor Churches and contradict Scripture?

The only answer is that they are not speaking in the pulpit by the Spirit.
A man does not have to understand all mysteries to be saved and called, but a called preacher will never speak his own words in the pulpit, yet the pulpits are filled with men who have never had a Word from the LORD in their lives, and so their congregations have never heard a word from the LORD through them, but rather ramblings of men's own philosophies.

I think you have gone a little out of bounds here. I am 60 years old, and have missed perhaps 5 Sundays in church in all those years.

I have seen one man - only one man - that could preach or teach and stay "in the spirit" for most of or the entire sermon. One man out of hundreds that I have heard speak. Most ministers today really don't know what it means to preach "in the spirit," or "by the Spirit."

What am I talking about? It would be like prophecying for an entire sermon. Let me explain. Speaking with our understanding and speaking "by the Spirit" are mutually exclusive! When we speak "by the spirit," Paul said that "our understanding is unfruitful." In other words, our fleshly mind is bypassed, and we don't even know what we are saying until we have said it.

For those that do not speak in tongues, this will not be understood. Tongues is speaking "in the spirit," and the mind is bypassed. Prophecy is speaking "in the spirit," but in the learned language, and again, the mind is bypassed. This is Paul's definitions from 1 Cor. 14, in a nutshell.

Therefore, most preachers are preaching WITH their understanding, but helped by the Holy Spirit. They are NOT speaking "in the spirit." This is why we have human opinions preached from the pulpit.

I can tell you a funny story. My pastor is confused about tithing, and believes it is still a law that we are under. He preaches it as a law. But one time, speaking in the spirit, He said something against what he believed, and of course, speaking in the spirit, did not know what he said until after he had said it! It shocked him, and he slipped right out of the spirit to go back and explain that what the Holy Spirit had just said was wrong! My wife and I laughed all the way home. It is amazing how set some can be in a wrong belief!

I have seen many Pentecostal preachers, slip in and out of speech "in the spirit." In other words, about half of their sermon was prophecy. Others, maybe 10 %. But again, only one man could preach an entire sermon "in the spirit!" I used to drive 36 hours to hear him preach.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I believe we are currently in revelations chapter 18.

Does this mean you are currently studying it, or does this mean that you have be transported way into the future, while the rest of the church is here in 2007?

for instance, when was about 2 billion, 1/3 of the population of the earth, killed? Did the world fall asleep and miss it?

We have seen wars and rumors of wars, we have seen pestilences, famines, etc. Millions of God's people have been martyred. (Seals 1-5). However, we have NOT seen the world wide earthquake of the 6th seal.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

What is sad are those who have been seduced to believe in a yet future temple where animal sacrifices will be resumed! What a slap in the face of Jesus who provided the perfect sacrifice for all time.

How it grieves me to even picture a time when Jesus would physically exist again on this earth and have to bear the stench of totally ineffective sacrifices being made around Him. That's what sad!

Not even Abraham longed for what futurists long for! Nor did any of the others of faith of Hebrews 11! They recognized the incompleteness and the shadowy nature of the Old Covenant. Abraham himself was not content--even in the land of promise! Why? "He waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11:10).

What about the other champions of faith? "These all died in faith NOT HAVING RECEIVED the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH!" (Heb. 11:13). They all sought a "homeland." Modern Israel with a rebuilt temple with re-instituted sacrifices? No!

"And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But NOW they desire a BETTER, that is, a HEAVENLY country." God "HAS PREPARED a city for them" (Heb. 11:15).

Why do you long FOR them something they themselves never longed for?

I commend this pastor for allowing Scripture to dictate his beliefs, in spite of the opposition and in spite of the cost, rather than being seduced by the traditions and teachings of men.

Futurists (innocently or not) do put our Lord to open shame when they teach of a rebuilt temple and a resumed sacrificial system. Jesus pronounced woes upon that nation of Jews who were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was part of that judgment. It will NOT be rebuilt!

Did you just wake up, or have you torn Ezekiel out of your bible?

coop

 

[lecoop]

Notice that Revelation 18 precedes Revelation 22 where Jesus clearly says three times "I am coming QUICKLY" (22:7, 12, 20). Notice also that John was shown those things which must SHORTLY take place--1:1; 22:6). And notice also Revelation 1:3--the time is NEAR!

While you are noticing those things, try to remember when 1/3 of the world's population was killed.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

notice in the book of Zephaniah....the day of the Lord is at hand....the great day of the Lord is near...it is near and hasten greatly.........

so here we have an Old Testament prophet claiming the day of the Lord is at hand......in which a space of over 400 years occur between Testaments.........was Zephaniah lying or warning people to be prepared every day......as John was......

Ha ha ha ha ha! Great answer!

Coop

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

notice in the book of Zephaniah....the day of the Lord is at hand....the great day of the Lord is near...it is near and hasten greatly.........

so here we have an Old Testament prophet claiming the day of the Lord is at hand......in which a space of over 400 years occur between Testaments.........was Zephaniah lying or warning people to be prepared every day......as John was......

Actually in the OT the Day of the LORD refers to 1) a historical event such as the destruction of Jerusalem or 2) a future universal event involving the entire planet.

The Day of the LORD in the OT often spoke of judgment. This judgment was directed to Judah or Israel, or other times directed toward specific nations. Other passages speak of a future universal judgment of the whole world.

However one must not neglect the fact that the Day of the LORD in the OT also spoke of restoration, and particularly the restoration of Judah and Israel.

The historical judgments and "Days" of the LORD in the OT contain enough references and context to show that they prefigure a future, universal Day of the LORD which will come upon the whole world, (for example, see Isaiah chapters 13-27).

Zephaniah likewise contains these elements: It begins with a stated universal judgment on the world (1:2-3), followed by announced judgments against Judah, the surrounding nations (Philistia, Moab/Ammon, Ethiopia, Assyria), and Jerusalem. The judgment section closes as it began with judgment on all the earth (3:8). Then comes the announcement of a worldwide future Day of the LORD restoration (3:9-20).


LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Dispensationilism is such hogwash.. it is a man made system that was created in the 1900s around.. there is no way you can totally "Date and Time" events like a calculator with the bible..The Seventh Day adventists tried it(predicted Jesus would come back in the 1800s) and look what happened.. this should be a good example to how far this has gone..and what mistakes people have fallen into..

First, any theological system or method of interpretation is going to be "man-made" because they involve people. All translations of Scripture are "man-made" because they involve people. The transmission of the original manuscripts also involved people. So can anyone seriously point to any Christian tradition or denomination that has been perfect and without mistakes?

Second, dispensationalism is not about date setting. Am I a dispensationalist? Yes. Do I see the US in prophecy and other such "newspaper" exegesis? No. Dispensationalism is about following a historical-grammatical method of interpretation with an emphasis on progressive revelation. Those who see the US in prophecy and other similar interpretations are not adhering to a historical-grammatical method.


LDG

 

[phoenixgw]

The term eschatology (last/final word/matter/thing - Greek) may have been coined by William Walter, but prophecy encompasses more than man-made concepts & is indeed more than "last things."

Scripture is abound with prophecies that refer to last things. As well, the Bible itself illustrates throughout its pages how eternity impinges on the temporal throughout the history of humanity.

Consider the prophecy of "the abomination that causes desolation" (Daniel 9). Does this not involve more than a man-made concept & more than last things?

Like a pebble making ripples through a pond, we see a number of unfolding events that that contribute to the fulfilling of this prophecy. Recall:

• the sacrificing of a pig to Zeus in the Jerusalem temple by Antiochus Epiphanes
• the building of the "Dome on the Rock" on the temple mount
• the abomination foretold by Jesus near the end of the age

To see prophecy with a meiopic eye (narrow, precise) is to miss the full scope of prophecy, which is more than preterism or eschatology (seen exclusively as "last things") can capture.

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him, but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit" (1Cor. 2:9b-10a, NIV).

 

[Parousia]

notice in the book of Zephaniah....the day of the Lord is at hand....the great day of the Lord is near...it is near and hasten greatly.........

so here we have an Old Testament prophet claiming the day of the Lord is at hand......in which a space of over 400 years occur between Testaments.........was Zephaniah lying or warning people to be prepared every day......as John was......

Do you suppose that there is only ONE day of the Lord? The day of the Lord is a reference to the coming of God's judgment upon a nation or a people. Zephaniah's day of the Lord concerns the coming judgment of God on Jerusalem (ca 587 b.c.) by the Babylonians. So in Zephaniah's time, that Day of the Lord WAS AT HAND!

Parousia