I am sorry if some one had already done this but I am a fantasy and Sci-fi writer and would like to here what every one loves and hates about the two genras and what they want to see more or less of. Any thoughts?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
What you want to see in Sci-Fi and Fantasy more?
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stonetoflesh
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I'd like to see less emphasis on worldbuilding for (seemingly) its own sake-- if I wanted to read a history treatise, I'd read about the real world. Tantalize us with vague references or veiled allusions and move on; don't clobber us with detail and bog down the story being told. Sometimes less really is more...
A proper Fantasy setting should invoke a sense of wonder, of the fantastic. "Quasi-Medieval/Renaissance Europe with Postmodern Values & Ideals" just doesn't cut the mustard anymore-- if it ever did. Give me crumbling, moldering ruins of long-forgotten civilizations. Advanced technology so ridiculously advanced and alien as to seem like magic. True magic that is rare, dangerous, and heavily laden with consequences for those who dare trifle with Powers they cannot comprehend. Monsters that are Monsters. Something other than LotR with the serial numbers filed off or a novelization of someone's vanilla D&D campaign world. Please-- no more elves, dwarves, grandfatherly mentors, "mook" races like goblins/orcs, etc.
A proper Fantasy setting should invoke a sense of wonder, of the fantastic. "Quasi-Medieval/Renaissance Europe with Postmodern Values & Ideals" just doesn't cut the mustard anymore-- if it ever did. Give me crumbling, moldering ruins of long-forgotten civilizations. Advanced technology so ridiculously advanced and alien as to seem like magic. True magic that is rare, dangerous, and heavily laden with consequences for those who dare trifle with Powers they cannot comprehend. Monsters that are Monsters. Something other than LotR with the serial numbers filed off or a novelization of someone's vanilla D&D campaign world. Please-- no more elves, dwarves, grandfatherly mentors, "mook" races like goblins/orcs, etc.
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More Ice and Fire like. Make the actions have consequences. If a character dies, make it for a reason and due to someone's action. I'm sick of people randomly killing off the nominal character for the sake of "giving a sense of danger." The Riftwar Guy is the worst of these. He's had a horse randomly rear up and throw it's rider or have part of a cliff collapse, leaving the man left there to die.
If you haven't read ASoIF, Martin doesn't randomly kill characters, but every action will lead to other actions, and in true dark age fashion, these can lead to death in regards to battle and politics.
Don't use things that are obvious to us, as magic items. I.E. using a gun as a "fire lance" or cars as "iron chariots."
If you haven't read ASoIF, Martin doesn't randomly kill characters, but every action will lead to other actions, and in true dark age fashion, these can lead to death in regards to battle and politics.
Don't use things that are obvious to us, as magic items. I.E. using a gun as a "fire lance" or cars as "iron chariots."
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Paleoconservatarian
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Sci-fi: Please, no more space cowboys, and no more alien-of-the-month clubs. Star Wars was fun, but it is by no means the measure of good sci-fi. Combine a compelling story with a fascinating philosophical or scientific puzzle. Make me think. Challenge me. And if you do reuse old ideas (and that's not necessarily a bad thing), re-think them. Is there anything our favorite sci-fi writers missed?
Fantasy: Tolkien was good at being Tolkien. Nobody else is. Please don't try to emulate him. I very much agree with gnombient's comments.
Fantasy: Tolkien was good at being Tolkien. Nobody else is. Please don't try to emulate him. I very much agree with gnombient's comments.
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TwilightSol
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give it a hiden back round so that you have to keep reading the story to find out what happens. works for me! *insert smily face* dont fill the space with unnessecery junk, make it short and sweet but intense, this by the way is just a segestion always do what you want in your own why and dont let any one tell you how to tell your storys.
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Robert J. Sawyer style:
Base a story around hard science. Explore new theories and what would happen if they were applied through fiction. I love to feel like I'm being educated while reading sci-fi.
Base a story around hard science. Explore new theories and what would happen if they were applied through fiction. I love to feel like I'm being educated while reading sci-fi.
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Doubtless
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I'd have to disagree a bit with Gnombient and Paleo. Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy shot up like a star, and it was basically a mix of Pern, LOTR, and The Wheel of Time books. When the movie came out, FOX tried to make everything different from the book, because if they stuck to the book, they thought they'd have another LOTR. The movie sucked. I'd much rather see another LOTR, than see a Power Rangers action movie, set in a fantasy world.
As for worldbuilding, every book needs a bit of it, and it doesn't dull-up the story, unless you saturate it with boring facts. It has to be legend, myth, or supernatural. It can't just be "This guy killed that guy, and the other guy took over the world." In order for a book to be climactic, it has to be the struggle between a lot more than just good and evil, action-star and super-villain. It has to be centuries, and milleniums of struggle, leading up to one point, at which the fate of the World is decided.
That's my view, anyway.
BTW, don't make the basic story one in which "main guy faces obstacle; main guy beats obstacle; main guy gets an Uber-Sword of Kill-All, and kick's bad guy's rear.
~Doubtless
P.S. Check out my book. It's called Earthensong: The Augur Sagas: The Prophet's Key. I'm going to publish it sometime this fall or winter. PM me for the link. Can't give it here, cause of the CF rules.
As for worldbuilding, every book needs a bit of it, and it doesn't dull-up the story, unless you saturate it with boring facts. It has to be legend, myth, or supernatural. It can't just be "This guy killed that guy, and the other guy took over the world." In order for a book to be climactic, it has to be the struggle between a lot more than just good and evil, action-star and super-villain. It has to be centuries, and milleniums of struggle, leading up to one point, at which the fate of the World is decided.
That's my view, anyway.
BTW, don't make the basic story one in which "main guy faces obstacle; main guy beats obstacle; main guy gets an Uber-Sword of Kill-All, and kick's bad guy's rear.
~Doubtless
P.S. Check out my book. It's called Earthensong: The Augur Sagas: The Prophet's Key. I'm going to publish it sometime this fall or winter. PM me for the link. Can't give it here, cause of the CF rules.
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Psalms34
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What do you write? Novels, screen plays, short stories etc…?
Sci-fi, I like Space Operas. Babylon 5 must have been the best of them all. They were well written and the TV series was well done.
Sci-fi downside, a lot of really weird ideas. Too much use of new age ideas among the secular writers.
Fantasy, I really like Pilgrims Progress a lot. A true classic that is worth reading again and again. Imagination level of 10 while every part leading to a deep thought of scripture.
Fantasy downside, way too much occult symbolism in most secular writings.
Sci-fi, I like Space Operas. Babylon 5 must have been the best of them all. They were well written and the TV series was well done.
Sci-fi downside, a lot of really weird ideas. Too much use of new age ideas among the secular writers.
Fantasy, I really like Pilgrims Progress a lot. A true classic that is worth reading again and again. Imagination level of 10 while every part leading to a deep thought of scripture.
Fantasy downside, way too much occult symbolism in most secular writings.
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Lessien
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More character-driven stories. Don't be afraid to let us get to know the villain, either. Many of my favorite fantasy stories let the reader see the villain, what he/she is thinking, his/her past, that sort of thing. Flashbacks are good. Of course, don't bog us down with them, but don't be afraid to use them, either.
I agree with everyone else here who said DON'T EMULATE TOLKIEN! This may be hard to let go of, because he was a terrific writer and LOTR was amazing, but honestly, I'm sick of seeing writers whose worlds are just carbon copies of Middle-Earth because they're too lazy to make their own world! When you do that, you're not only cheating your readers out of a one-of-a-kind fantasy experience, you're cheating yourself out of that, too. Sometimes, exploring your fantasy world is half the fun of writing it.
Of course, a little worldbuilding goes a long way. A good rule of thumb is: If it won't advance the plot or let us know a main character (the villain counts, too) better, DON'T PUT IT IN THE STORY! If we have to know it to understand something, by all means put it in. If not, leave it out or allude to it.
I like fantasy with a meaning. Till We Have Faces is an excellent example of this. It's so deep, yet such a great story, that you have to keep reading and when it's over, you want to read it again.
Don't take the whole meaning thing too far, though. I like a good story and a good meaning, but I bought that book because I want to read fantasy, not a sermon. Focus on the story, but keep God at the center, and the meaning will naturally arise from the story.
And although probably everyone here has already said this, I'll say it again: I'm sick of medieval fantasy. Unless it's EXTREMELY well-done, it just doesn't cut it anymore. Tolkien and Lewis were probably the only writers who could do it well, but as for the rest of us...Well, just stick with something else.
Fantasy is the genre of overactive imaginations, and overactive imaginations shouldn't be limited by the "quasi-medival world with a dark menace" standard. As fantasy writers, we should have the right to pick or create our own eras for our own worlds that are uniquely ours.
I agree with everyone else here who said DON'T EMULATE TOLKIEN! This may be hard to let go of, because he was a terrific writer and LOTR was amazing, but honestly, I'm sick of seeing writers whose worlds are just carbon copies of Middle-Earth because they're too lazy to make their own world! When you do that, you're not only cheating your readers out of a one-of-a-kind fantasy experience, you're cheating yourself out of that, too. Sometimes, exploring your fantasy world is half the fun of writing it.
Of course, a little worldbuilding goes a long way. A good rule of thumb is: If it won't advance the plot or let us know a main character (the villain counts, too) better, DON'T PUT IT IN THE STORY! If we have to know it to understand something, by all means put it in. If not, leave it out or allude to it.
I like fantasy with a meaning. Till We Have Faces is an excellent example of this. It's so deep, yet such a great story, that you have to keep reading and when it's over, you want to read it again.
Don't take the whole meaning thing too far, though. I like a good story and a good meaning, but I bought that book because I want to read fantasy, not a sermon. Focus on the story, but keep God at the center, and the meaning will naturally arise from the story.
And although probably everyone here has already said this, I'll say it again: I'm sick of medieval fantasy. Unless it's EXTREMELY well-done, it just doesn't cut it anymore. Tolkien and Lewis were probably the only writers who could do it well, but as for the rest of us...Well, just stick with something else.
Fantasy is the genre of overactive imaginations, and overactive imaginations shouldn't be limited by the "quasi-medival world with a dark menace" standard. As fantasy writers, we should have the right to pick or create our own eras for our own worlds that are uniquely ours.
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Doubtless
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You know, all those things you describe as "Emulating Tolkien" and "Medieval fantasy" are aspects of a sub-genre of Fantasy, called High Fantasy. Check out what Wikipedia has to say about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy
Basically, there are three main aspects of High Fantasy:
1.) There has to be an EPIC struggle between good and evil, mostly that has taken place over many years/centuries/milleniums, and leads up to this one tale that resolves the conflict.
2.) The main character must NOT be bored of his life, and just walk off on some adventure. He must be either whisked (hate that word) away, or be led by the fact that he is the only one who can do what needs to be done (and not because of personal strength).
3.) "Some typical characteristics of high fantasy include fantastical elements such as elves and dwarves, magic, wizards, invented languages, quests, coming-of-age themes, and multi-volume narratives" To put it in the words of Wikipedia. Basically, there must be higher things that are above the basic struggle (i.e. "It seems you carry the fate of us all, little one." ~ Boromir from LOTR).
Anything that doesn't follow these aspects is nothing more than Sword and Sorcery Fantasy, or Low Fantasy (disputed).
Books like LOTR, and Chronicles of Narnia are High Fantasy. The Inheritance Trilogy (first book was Eragon) is a mix of High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery. The Pern books are solid Sword and Sorcery (and they sucked, if you ask me).
Sorry, just my thoughts.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy
Basically, there are three main aspects of High Fantasy:
1.) There has to be an EPIC struggle between good and evil, mostly that has taken place over many years/centuries/milleniums, and leads up to this one tale that resolves the conflict.
2.) The main character must NOT be bored of his life, and just walk off on some adventure. He must be either whisked (hate that word) away, or be led by the fact that he is the only one who can do what needs to be done (and not because of personal strength).
3.) "Some typical characteristics of high fantasy include fantastical elements such as elves and dwarves, magic, wizards, invented languages, quests, coming-of-age themes, and multi-volume narratives" To put it in the words of Wikipedia. Basically, there must be higher things that are above the basic struggle (i.e. "It seems you carry the fate of us all, little one." ~ Boromir from LOTR).
Anything that doesn't follow these aspects is nothing more than Sword and Sorcery Fantasy, or Low Fantasy (disputed).
Books like LOTR, and Chronicles of Narnia are High Fantasy. The Inheritance Trilogy (first book was Eragon) is a mix of High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery. The Pern books are solid Sword and Sorcery (and they sucked, if you ask me).
Sorry, just my thoughts.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
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Lessien
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You know, all those things you describe as "Emulating Tolkien" and "Medieval fantasy" are aspects of a sub-genre of Fantasy, called High Fantasy. Check out what Wikipedia has to say about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy
Basically, there are three main aspects of High Fantasy:
1.) There has to be an EPIC struggle between good and evil, mostly that has taken place over many years/centuries/milleniums, and leads up to this one tale that resolves the conflict.
2.) The main character must NOT be bored of his life, and just walk off on some adventure. He must be either whisked (hate that word) away, or be led by the fact that he is the only one who can do what needs to be done (and not because of personal strength).
3.) "Some typical characteristics of high fantasy include fantastical elements such as elves and dwarves, magic, wizards, invented languages, quests, coming-of-age themes, and multi-volume narratives" To put it in the words of Wikipedia. Basically, there must be higher things that are above the basic struggle (i.e. "It seems you carry the fate of us all, little one." ~ Boromir from LOTR).
Anything that doesn't follow these aspects is nothing more than Sword and Sorcery Fantasy, or Low Fantasy (disputed).
Books like LOTR, and Chronicles of Narnia are High Fantasy. The Inheritance Trilogy (first book was Eragon) is a mix of High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery. The Pern books are solid Sword and Sorcery (and they sucked, if you ask me).
Sorry, just my thoughts.
~ Eric M. Boellner
The coming-of-age and epic struggle themes are fine with me. So are the invented languages (in some cases, it makes the whole book more interesting) and the quests. Heck, I'm even fine with the hero who is wisked away to an epic war where he finds that he has a responsibility to stop an ancient evil. All of those I'm fine with. It's the rest I'm sick of.
Elves, dwarves and wizards are fine, too--when they're original. But when an author uses elves who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, dwarves who live in caves, weild battle axes and speak a rough-sounding language, and old, wise, somewhat grouchy wizards who can use magic and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons, that's when I get sick of the book.
Now, can all those characteristics come together to create a terrific book? Yes. Tolkien did it very well. But if you're going to use those elements, make them your own.
Tolkien may have popularized the fantasy genre, but his books are not sacred. It's not a mortal sin to write a book with High Fantasy themes that has a setting completely different from Middle-Earth.
And as for the Inheritance trilogy...don't even get me started. Let's just say that I'm a proud Inheritance Basher.
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Doubtless
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Actually, I agree with you. And thanks for the post. I just realized that I am commiting that very crime of "...Using elves who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, dwarves who live in caves, weild battle axes and speak a rough-sounding language, and old, wise, somewhat grouchy wizards who can use magic and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons..."
I guess I'm gonna have to edit my story a lot, and make it more of my own fantasies rather than Tolkien's. So instead of said crimes, I am going to make Elves who live in caves, weild battle axes, and speak a rough-sounding language; Wizards who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, and Dwarves who are old, wise, and somewhat grouchy, and who can use magic, and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons!
Just kidding.
I guess I'm gonna have to edit my story a lot, and make it more of my own fantasies rather than Tolkien's. So instead of said crimes, I am going to make Elves who live in caves, weild battle axes, and speak a rough-sounding language; Wizards who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, and Dwarves who are old, wise, and somewhat grouchy, and who can use magic, and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons!
Just kidding.
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Lessien
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Actually, I agree with you. And thanks for the post. I just realized that I am commiting that very crime of "...Using elves who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, dwarves who live in caves, weild battle axes and speak a rough-sounding language, and old, wise, somewhat grouchy wizards who can use magic and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons..."
I guess I'm gonna have to edit my story a lot, and make it more of my own fantasies rather than Tolkien's. So instead of said crimes, I am going to make Elves who live in caves, weild battle axes, and speak a rough-sounding language; Wizards who are ancient, wise and perfect in every way, and Dwarves who are old, wise, and somewhat grouchy, and who can use magic, and/or reveal plot details but don't for their own mysterious reasons!
Ooooohhhh...excellent use of sarcasm!
Look, if you like High Fantasy, elves, dwarves and all, then go ahead and write your book that way. I admit, there are people out there who love books like that. And I'm not one of them, just because I've seen so many books like that in my relatively short life that I'd rather fantasy writers stray off the beaten path into exciting and unexplored territory.
But, like I said, there are people who like that kind of fantasy. To each his own, I guess. If you like your book that way, then by all means write it like that! If you're having fun, keep going.
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Doubtless
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No, I agree with you fully. It just took me a while to finally stop trying to convince myself that what I was writing wasn't a carbon copy of Tolkien's works. After reading your post I got a little depressed, thinking there was no way I could fix my story and make it my own, but then I got sick of being depressed and started rewriting the plot. I only changed the plot of the starting book, a few of the characters, and some races, though, because the overall plot of my six-book series is (I'm not being proud, just saying my thoughts) a well-written and well-thought-out plot.
It's going to take me a good while to change everything to fit the new plot (I'm on page 214, so I've plenty of work to do), but when I'm done it will be an emulation of my own fantasies and not the ones that Tolkien wrote. Finally, I'll have something that I can say is my own, and know it's good.
So again, thanks for the post, and the brief semi-debate about Fantasy. I wish you well in your writings, and God bless.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
It's going to take me a good while to change everything to fit the new plot (I'm on page 214, so I've plenty of work to do), but when I'm done it will be an emulation of my own fantasies and not the ones that Tolkien wrote. Finally, I'll have something that I can say is my own, and know it's good.
So again, thanks for the post, and the brief semi-debate about Fantasy. I wish you well in your writings, and God bless.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
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Lessien
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Hey, don't get depressed! I didn't mean to make you rewrite your entire book when I posted that....I was just stating my opinion.
Look, if you believe in your book, believe that it's a great book and NOT a carbon copy of LOTR, go for it. But if you do, then it's your choice whether to rewrite it or not.
Again, sorry if I hurt you with my other two posts.
Look, if you believe in your book, believe that it's a great book and NOT a carbon copy of LOTR, go for it. But if you do, then it's your choice whether to rewrite it or not.
Again, sorry if I hurt you with my other two posts.
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Doubtless
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No! 
By depressed, I'm referring to what I call writer's depression, where you feel like what you're trying to do is impossible, or what you're doing is crap. By that, I mean that I lay down on my bed, and thought hard. That's an extreme for me. jk. Like I said, I'm very glad that you posted what you did, because it helped me to form a very awesome plotline, with characters of my own, and not Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas ruling my story. Now I've changed dwarfs into my own idea of them, elfs are gone, and Highborn are in (no, their not a carbon copy of elfs.) I also switched up the plot of the first book, and the characters of the whole series, so that only a few people really know what anyone's supposed to do, and they are people who aren't with the main character.
Again, don't be sorry, and thank you.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
BTW, my book is still Christian High Fantasy, but it's now my own creation.
By depressed, I'm referring to what I call writer's depression, where you feel like what you're trying to do is impossible, or what you're doing is crap. By that, I mean that I lay down on my bed, and thought hard. That's an extreme for me. jk. Like I said, I'm very glad that you posted what you did, because it helped me to form a very awesome plotline, with characters of my own, and not Gandalf, Gimli, and Legolas ruling my story. Now I've changed dwarfs into my own idea of them, elfs are gone, and Highborn are in (no, their not a carbon copy of elfs.) I also switched up the plot of the first book, and the characters of the whole series, so that only a few people really know what anyone's supposed to do, and they are people who aren't with the main character.Again, don't be sorry, and thank you.
~ Wilhelm Stroven
BTW, my book is still Christian High Fantasy, but it's now my own creation.
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I'm pretty tired of authors who are afraid of, or incapable of, addressing the dark side of human nature.
'Antiheroes' who never do anything particularly wrong. 'Assassins' who never kill except in self-defense, 'thieves' who never steal anything but the book's one shiny McGuffin, 'evil overlords' who are no worse than Alexander or Constantine.
Generic bad-guy trappings; black spiky armor and drooling minions; 'temptresses' in low-cut dresses whose only weapon is a vocabulary out of a 1950's 'racy novel'. Black castles, heads on pikes, perpetual cloud cover.
These say nothing of the real human struggle between good and evil, which is played out in every person's heart every day. If a character is meant to be redeemed, there has to be something he's redeemed from.
Oh, and please no more of the Disney Escape Clause, where while the hero and villain are fighting, the hero tries not to kill the villain, and then the villain immediately dies due to accident or stupidity. It's cheap.
'Antiheroes' who never do anything particularly wrong. 'Assassins' who never kill except in self-defense, 'thieves' who never steal anything but the book's one shiny McGuffin, 'evil overlords' who are no worse than Alexander or Constantine.
Generic bad-guy trappings; black spiky armor and drooling minions; 'temptresses' in low-cut dresses whose only weapon is a vocabulary out of a 1950's 'racy novel'. Black castles, heads on pikes, perpetual cloud cover.
These say nothing of the real human struggle between good and evil, which is played out in every person's heart every day. If a character is meant to be redeemed, there has to be something he's redeemed from.
Oh, and please no more of the Disney Escape Clause, where while the hero and villain are fighting, the hero tries not to kill the villain, and then the villain immediately dies due to accident or stupidity. It's cheap.
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