And then along came Mary...

[sunlover1]

No wonder there is so many denominations eh? "Everyone" has their own "interpretation" now since they all have their own set of Scripture, no matter how poorly translated, paraphrased, watered down and butchered it is.

Which one is correct?
In your opinion.

sunlover

 

[Benedicta00]

Which one is correct?
In your opinion.

sunlover

The one St Jerome translated into Latin.

 

[sunlover1]

The one St Jerome translated into Latin.

The Vulgate?
That's the one you use?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I'm so sorry, somehow you mistook cold hard truth, for sarcasm. Maybe try reading it again?

no, I find you and what you say amusing...if there were an element of truth..maybe..but nah, makes for good reading..

 

[IamAdopted]

Before more of your fan club here start licking your bootstraps,

This is hard cold truth? This answers some of my questions.. LOL..

 

[prodromos]

But isn't it always translated from the
original.

Not really. Modern translations always make use of the earlier efforts as a guide. It is extremely unlikely that someone will start from scratch and ignore every translation that has come before him. They will most certainly have used other translations themselves before embarking on their own efforts, and it is very difficult not to incorporate the particular understanding you picked up from the other versions when doing your own translation. They are also limited by the tools at their disposal. I have not found a single Greek-English lexicon that has the alternate meaning for the word translated as "locusts". It can only be found in Greek lexicons, although there may be some German-Greek or Russian-Greek or other language that includes it.

John

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

This is hard cold truth? This answers some of my questions.. LOL..

pretty disgusting isn't it? ah, well..I ignore people like this.

 

[prodromos]

The one St Jerome translated into Latin.

Jerome can't even translate the Lord's Prayer the same way twice!

Luke 11:3
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ’ ἡμέραν·

Matthew 6:11
Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·

The bolded parts of these verses are identical and translate as "our needed bread" or "our bread which is essential".

How did Jerome translate them?

Luke 11:3
panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis cotidie

Matthew 6:11
panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie

"supersubstantialem" (essential) is correct, "cotidianum" (daily) is not, but guess which version has ended up in every English translation of the Lord's prayer thanks to the Catholic Church.

John

 

[Proeliator]

It seems as though the writers of the Gospels phrased that differently, thus the reason why it was translated differently. This is from the TR:

[SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Matthew 6:11 ton <3588> arton <740> hmwn <2257> {OUR BREAD} ton <3588> {THE} epiousion <1967> {NEEDED} doV <1325> (5628) {GIVE} hmin <2254> {US} shmeron <4594> {TODAY;}[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Luke 11:3 ton <3588> arton <740> hmwn <2257> {OUR BREAD} ton <3588> {THE} epiousion <1967> {NEEDED} didou <1325> (5720) {GIVE} hmin <2254> to <3588> kaq <2596> {US} hmeran <2250> {DAILY;}[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Hrm, the actual greek itself didnt come through, but the point is stil evident.

 

[sunlover1]

It seems as though the writers of the Gospels phrased that differently, thus the reason why it was translated differently. This is from the TR:

[SIZE=+0]

[/SIZE]Hrm, the actual greek itself didnt come through, but the point is stil evident.

So which Bible version passes your test?
I would think we would need to go to the
originals, and then we have the problem of
self translating (unless we're greek )

guess we're all stuck with 'translations'.

 

[prodromos]

It seems as though the writers of the Gospels phrased that differently, thus the reason why it was translated differently.

The latter part of each verse does not change the meaning of the former.

 

[TheListener]

True not everything that was done or said is written in scripture. But everything that we need is.. God has not left us as orphans.. He has sent His word to be a light unto our path. He has sent His word so that we may be sanctified.. My point exactly.. After the tradtions of men.. The rudiments of the world. And not after Christ..Somewhere along the line Mary snuck in here..Now some see her as someone even scripture doesn't speak of her.. Read this again.. Paul is saying that He not only taught in the epistle but by word. Doesn't mean his word and his epistle are different.. It means that if He didn't write it He still spoke the same..

Mary was there from the beginning. If you read early church history you'll see this. What happened was Mary, along with a lot of other Christian traditions and precious beleifs that were held to where thrown out by heretics which came in after Luther. The Church became almost unrecognisable and the theology went completely warped. False teachings like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide crept in. The result is what we have today.

but don't take my word for it, carefully & prayerfully research it. Then don't be too surprised if you end up converting to the RCC like I did

 

[IamAdopted]

Mary was there from the beginning. If you read early church history you'll see this. What happened was Mary, along with a lot of other Christian traditions and precious beleifs that were held to where thrown out by heretics which came in after Luther. The Church became almost unrecognisable and the theology went completely warped. False teachings like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide crept in. The result is what we have today.

but don't take my word for it, carefully & prayerfully research it. Then don't be too surprised if you end up converting to the RCC like I did

Mary was not from the beginning.. No I will not convert.. I see the error they teach.. I see all the truth I need in Gods infallable word. Show me where scripture says Mary was from beginning.. Traditions of Men are always nice but they don't hold truth for they are not inspired.. Only the scriptures are inspired.. We are not told that tradtion is..They claim it is but I don't see any thing to prove this is true..

 

[sunlover1]

Not really. Modern translations always make use of the earlier efforts as a guide. It is extremely unlikely that someone will start from scratch and ignore every translation that has come before him. They will most certainly have used other translations themselves before embarking on their own efforts, and it is very difficult not to incorporate the particular understanding you picked up from the other versions when doing your own translation. They are also limited by the tools at their disposal. I have not found a single Greek-English lexicon that has the alternate meaning for the word translated as "locusts". It can only be found in Greek lexicons, although there may be some German-Greek or Russian-Greek or other language that includes it.

John

Thank you Prodromos

 

[HisKid1973]

No way Bro.. The more I learn the farther it chases me away to just trusting in the sacred scriptures..I think the apostles teaching is just fine without the add-ons along the way...

 

[TheListener]

Mary was not from the beginning.. No I will not convert.. I see the error they teach.. I see all the truth I need in Gods infallable word. Show me where scripture says Mary was from beginning.. Traditions of Men are always nice but they don't hold truth for they are not inspired.. Only the scriptures are inspired.. We are not told that tradtion is..They claim it is but I don't see any thing to prove this is true..

I didn't mean Mary was there from the beginning as in Mary was there when the world was created. What I meant was the veneration and honour due to Mary was given to her as long as the Christian Church has existed. I apologise for not making that clear.

The heretical teaching of sola fide makes life convinient for those who are not prepared to give their lives to Jesus and accept God's authority here on earth. And I think my previous post made it out as if Luther was not a heretic but those who followed (like Zwingly, Calvin etc) were. This is not the case, Luther was the chief heretic. He is on par with Marcion & the Arian heretics who tried to teach false doctrines in their times. (IMHO)

The Scriptures are an incredible source of information. They are perfectly useful, 1 Timothy 3:16 states this clearly. But it is not all that God left us with. he left us with His Holy Spirit, he left us with Apostolic Succession. Jesus said "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." You can argue that away by saying its "Peter's faith" but you cant explain the "keys of Heaven". And history of apostolic succession pretty much speaks for itself. Its a fact, the pope is there and doesnt go away if you close your eyes.

In the same way, even if you don't acknowledge Mary's status as "Mother of God", "Ark of the Covenant", "Queen of Heaven" it makes no difference. Church history and the earliest writings will show you she was always venerated and the feast of her Assumption has been there for longer than the history of the oldest Protestant Church.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that Mary is venerated in all the oldest "denominations" and in none of the new ones? Who's been doing the adding/subtracting stuff?

If you are in an honest search of the truth then you will find it. Then it comes down to what kind of a man you are. What you do with the truth will reveal this. On the other hand if you don't like the possible consequences that the truth may bring with it, then reject this post, twist my words around, close your eyes, plug your ears with your fingers, and sing to yourself loudly. You won't be the first person who has ever done that

 

[TheListener]

No way Bro.. The more I learn the farther it chases me away to just trusting in the sacred scriptures..I think the apostles teaching is just fine without the add-ons along the way...

That's not up to us. Salvation is not a combination of choices, it comes through a person, Jesus Christ. And what Jesus has left us with is what we are to follow here on earth.

 

[IamAdopted]

That's not up to us. Salvation is not a combination of choices, it comes through a person, Jesus Christ. And what Jesus has left us with is what we are to follow here on earth.

And that would be His written word. Jesus doesn't speak kindly of tradtions so therfore I don't think I will follow them. He speaks about the scriptures constantly so these are what I will allow to be a light unto my path.. My righteousness is Christ. The Father sanctifies me through His truth and His word is truth..

 

[HisKid1973]

That's not up to us. Salvation is not a combination of choices, it comes through a person, Jesus Christ. And what Jesus has left us with is what we are to follow here on earth.

Actually it is our choice to trust in Christ for our salvation..And yes we should submit to the leadership in our respective churches unless we see them stray from the truth,,And the church is alive on earth, it just is not confined to your Catholic church..pax..kim

 

[PassthePeace1]

And that would be His written word. Jesus doesn't speak kindly of tradtions so therfore I don't think I will follow them. He speaks about the scriptures constantly so these are what I will allow to be a light unto my path.. My righteousness is Christ. The Father sanctifies me through His truth and His word is truth..

You don't follow any traditions?