Homosexuality

[StTherese]

My understanding of the Catholic catechism is that every time a Protestant partakes in the Eucharist, the Protestant is sinning because:

a) Protestants refuse to subject themselves to the authority of the Pope and the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church
b) because Protestants refuse to subject themselves to the authority of the Pope and the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, their communion is invalid, and
c) for this reason, Roman Catholics are not to commune with Protestants.

Using the logic you just gave, Protestants should not observe the Lord's Supper. Since Protestants are sinning because they partake in a non-Roman Catholic Eucharist, we want them to stop sinning (partaking in the Eucharist) because we love them.

Speaking as a Lutheran, you know this isn't going to fly with me.

As far as gays and lesbians are concerned, you want them to stop being gay and lesbian because you love them.

My question: why should they listen to you (or any other Christian who takes this view) since "love" is dependent on their not being gay or lesbian (which means the "love" being offered is completely conditional)?

God is Love. To commit a sinful act is to go against the very essence of Love.

Sin leads to death. As a Lutheran you should agree with this statement. If you see your brother sinning what should you do? Should you do nothing? What does the Bible say we should do?

 

[StTherese]

true but show me one person that deosn't give in to temptation every day at some point.

No one is claiming that we are not all sinners. We indeed all sin.
This has nothing to do with claiming that homosexual acts are not sinful...when in fact they are. Are you claiming that it isn't or are you saying that it is ok to remain in our sins?

 

[kimber1]

No one is claiming that we are not all sinners. We indeed all sin.
This has nothing to do with claiming that homosexual acts are not sinful...when in fact they are. Are you claiming that it isn't or are you saying that it is ok to remain in our sins?

i havne't said either really. you won't find me condemning homosexuals, sorry. i have my own issues to worry about without involving myself in someone else's private affairs.

 

[ScottBot]

true but show me one person that deosn't give in to temptation every day at some point.

The Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[UberLutheran]

God is Love. To commit a sinful act is to go against the very essence of Love.

Sin leads to death. As a Lutheran you should agree with this statement. If you see your brother sinning what should you do? Should you do nothing? What does the Bible say we should do?

Noooooooo... Lack of faith leads to death, and works is an outgrowth of faith.

JDDJ spelled that out.

 

[StTherese]

i havne't said either really. you won't find me condemning homosexuals, sorry. i have my own issues to worry about without involving myself in someone else's private affairs.

Then why are you on this thread discussing it?

 

[UberLutheran]

Then why are you on this thread discussing it?

Because other people seem very, very obsessed about what homosexuals do -- and very, very unconcerned about minor little things like starvation, lack of potable water, lack of affordable (or any) health care, poverty, homelessness, polluted air and land and water; diseases such as dengue, Lassa fever, Ebola, hantavirus and avian flu; genocides in Darfur, Kenya and Iraq (and while we're at it, Croatia, Bosnia, Cambodia and Rwanda but those folks didn't have anything the West particularly wanted) and the fact that the "haves" in the world use over half the world's resources while the "have nots" make do with the rest.

Now, to me -- THOSE things are a LOT more important than what two consenting people do together in bed!

 

[savedandhappy1]

i havne't said either really. you won't find me condemning homosexuals, sorry. i have my own issues to worry about without involving myself in someone else's private affairs.

So are you saying that if someone says homosexuality is a sin, that that means they are condemning those who are?

I am just trying to better understand what it is you are saying.
​

 

[BigMike835]

Because other people seem very, very obsessed about what homosexuals do -- and very, very unconcerned about minor little things like starvation, lack of potable water, lack of affordable (or any) health care, poverty, homelessness, polluted air and land and water; diseases such as dengue, Lassa fever, Ebola, hantavirus and avian flu; genocides in Darfur, Kenya and Iraq (and while we're at it, Croatia, Bosnia, Cambodia and Rwanda but those folks didn't have anything the West particularly wanted) and the fact that the "haves" in the world use over half the world's resources while the "have nots" make do with the rest.

Now, to me -- THOSE things are a LOT more important than what two consenting people do together in bed!

"So are you saying that if someone says homosexuality is a sin, that that means they are condemning those who are?"

You can't be a sin.

Also, why are there no threads about why lying or theft is a sin? A sin is a sin in God's eyes yet people seem to focus in on homosexuality on this site more than anything else. I think the people on here spending so much time on this subject trying to explain why it's so evil aren't very comfortable in their own sexuality. They're intimidated or otherwise made uncomfortable by homosexuals so they go to great lengths to discredit and disprove them to the point of almost slander. This only further alienates homosexuals as well as the general public from us, adding to the general perception that we are intolerant, judgemental and closed-minded fools.

On the opposite side you have people who come here to "confront the oppressors" and have no real desire to actually debate the subject and see another's point of view.

If you've made up your mind and aren't open to other possibilities then there's no point in going back and forth like this. All you can do now is pray for each other and shut up!!

 

[StTherese]

Also, why are there no threads about why lying or theft is a sin?

You are free to start a thread on it if you like...although I don't think many people will disagree with those things being sinful.

A sin is a sin in God's eyes yet people seem to focus in on homosexuality on this site more than anything else. I think the people on here spending so much time on this subject trying to explain why it's so evil aren't very comfortable in their own sexuality. They're intimidated or otherwise made uncomfortable by homosexuals so they go to great lengths to discredit and disprove them to the point of almost slander. This only further alienates homosexuals as well as the general public from us, adding to the general perception that we are intolerant, judgemental and closed-minded fools.

You could not be more wrong. When someone states something contrary to truth that has been revealed to us by Jesus Christ, then as Christians, we are responsible for instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner.

 

[intricatic]

Sorry, but I still don't understand this. Perhaps I'm just too tired. How did marriage come into this?

To a degree I was using that as an example. Paul's teachings all tie back into marriage / covenant by various degrees, as do most things in the Bible anyhow, so I thought it'd be a fitting example. Nothing Paul teaches is without some grounding in trying to teach how a relationship with God is supposed to look like. They aren't meant to be empty legal rhetoric, but pronouncements aimed at explaining the proper way to approach God, through Christ. Most of the things he talks about deal with antitypal relationships, as well, so they probably seem strange to our unsophisticated Western minds. Very little of what he had to say were constructed as cultural prohibitions, but the things that were constructed for that purpose still have a lot to teach.

And no worries, I get way ahead of myself sometimes. Apologies...

 

[savedandhappy1]

"So are you saying that if someone says homosexuality is a sin, that that means they are condemning those who are?"

You can't be a sin.

I don't believe I ever said anyone was a sin, sorry that wasn't clear and caused confussion for you. We all are sinners tho.​

Also, why are there no threads about why lying or theft is a sin? A sin is a sin in God's eyes yet people seem to focus in on homosexuality on this site more than anything else. I think the people on here spending so much time on this subject trying to explain why it's so evil aren't very comfortable in their own sexuality. They're intimidated or otherwise made uncomfortable by homosexuals so they go to great lengths to discredit and disprove them to the point of almost slander. This only further alienates homosexuals as well as the general public from us, adding to the general perception that we are intolerant, judgemental and closed-minded fools.

Yeah maybe you are right since from what I can tell most are started by those who believe it isn't a sin.​

You know I would hate to count the times that I alone have stated that we all sin, and that a sin is a sin is a sin. So since I have seen that stated by many other people, not just myself, I wonder what point you are trying to make?​

I too, have questioned the many threads, and even started one on gluttony. It wasn't long before it was dead, and 3 or more were started on sexual sins.​

Why someone would be intimidated or uncomfortable being around homosexuals I don't know, but I do know that some people are. It could just simply be that they associate HIV/AIDS with them and aren't educated enough with HIV/AIDS, so somehow believe they can get it. (Like from sweat or spit or something) I don't believe someone should automaticly believe it is because they are questioning their own sexuality. I'm sorry that statement seems alittle self serving, isn't it? Or are you doing that to try and scare someone or give them doubt? Which then opens the door for the devil to step in, and cause problems.​

I really don't understand why Christians would want to put stumbling blocks up to their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't believe that is the way the Bible says we are to do things is it?​

You may not be trying to do any of those things, but as I have explained on other threads,the true meaning and feelings behind the typed word can't always be rightly understood. So that is why I ask alot of questions, it is the best way for me to get a true understanding of what someone is trying to say.​

On the opposite side you have people who come here to "confront the oppressors" and have no real desire to actually debate the subject and see another's point of view.​

If you've made up your mind and aren't open to other possibilities then there's no point in going back and forth like this.​

Haven't see that many come to confront, well I have seen those come from the otherside of the debate, but I guess sometimes we see what we want to.​

So I take it you still haven't made up your mind about this issue? You know since you are still here?​

All you can do now is pray for each other and shut up!!

Such wonderful advice, do you follow your own advice or was that just for those who don't believe the way you do? You don't need to answer, thats ok. I have ignored some of your post to me, when all they are doing is...... well whatever it is you are trying to do. I will go back to doing that to avoid letting my flesh speak.​

I do wonder how you would think you know who is or isn't praying, but............just in case you don't know as much as you think you do. I do pray for those on this site along with many other people and situations. I even pray for you. ​

Goodnight!​

​

 

[davedjy]

Why try so hard to "reinvent the wheel" when the answer is neatly packaged in the Bible? Read Romans 1 for yourself and see.

Homosexuality is a consequence of not glorifying God in worship, and is a mark of moral depravity. Other manifestations of moral depravity are murderers, gossips, slanderers, & God-haters. I have noticed a greater tolerance by the Christian church in all denominations for these people as well.

I believe that the underlying cause of the acceptance of homosexuality & other sinful lifestyles is that we as a church have "lowered the bar" to include family & friends rather than excluding them from a holy assembly, and as a result, corrupted the Christian Church.

An examination of the Letters to the Churches in Asia (Rev. 2,3) presents the 21st century reader with historical highlights of the major syntheses that have taken place in the Christian Church over the centuries, each with their own brand of "leaven" that helped it to grow into what we have today.

I believe that we are at the point in history where we must ask ourselves as faithful believers in Jesus Christ, "Is it time to come out of her?" (the church), as is described in Revelation 18? We seem to be drawing into the latter part of the age described in Matthew 24.

No one can tell you what to do in this regard but God. I have received my answer, and as a result, I know longer worship in the sanctuary of any church, for I see them all as corrupted beyond hope. I pray that the Holy Spirit would give Christians guidance in this area as they seek the Lord out in prayer so that they may overcome the corruption that has infiltrated the organized churches.

The ironic nature of this post, is I probably spend more time "glorifying God" in song and in my own prayer, Bible and life than you or most others, and this comment comes out. Oh really, homosexual people are a result of that? Show where Paul talks about "gay marriage" being wrong (oh wait, that he didn't even know to address that to condemn it). All we can go by is "it's a result of not worshiping", which is an ignorant and misleading statement, one of malice and deceit to further self-indulge the conservative perspective, and neatly put bi's and gays in a box, labeled up.

What shall we do about this problem? Oh I know, someone should invent some "Stepford wife" brain circuit and implant it in our brains.

 

[kimber1]

The Blessed Virgin Mary.

i meant down here on earth.

Then why are you on this thread discussing it?

because i have a right to. and i can't stand watching people condemen something or someone that they have no right to if they've never gone through it themselves. how about living up to that tilte you have there about not judgin people?

So are you saying that if someone says homosexuality is a sin, that that means they are condemning those who are? ​

I am just trying to better understand what it is you are saying.​

it's not that they say it. it's how they say it and the condemnation that tends to go along with it.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

it's not that they say it. it's how they say it and the condemnation that tends to go along with it.

absolutely

 

[Gusoceros]

Because other people seem very, very obsessed about what homosexuals do -- and very, very unconcerned about minor little things like starvation, lack of potable water, lack of affordable (or any) health care, poverty, homelessness, polluted air and land and water; diseases such as dengue, Lassa fever, Ebola, hantavirus and avian flu; genocides in Darfur, Kenya and Iraq (and while we're at it, Croatia, Bosnia, Cambodia and Rwanda but those folks didn't have anything the West particularly wanted) and the fact that the "haves" in the world use over half the world's resources while the "have nots" make do with the rest.

Now, to me -- THOSE things are a LOT more important than what two consenting people do together in bed!

Well- a couple things here:

1) This thread is on homosexuality- and its right or wrongness.

2) This thread ISNT about Darfur, genocide, etc.

3) I share your view of not condemning sinners- this is God's job- however, let us not forget to call sin as it is- a sin.

4) The punishment for all sin, is death- whether it is the homosexual act, or stealing, or adultery, or...

5) So- when asked about homosexuality- what do you say? I dont care what consenting adults do? Rather- we should not mislead people with regard to sin. We should practice hate the sin, love the sinner- this is what we want from God as well.

G

 

[Gusoceros]

i meant down here on earth.
because i have a right to. and i can't stand watching people condemen something or someone that they have no right to if they've never gone through it themselves. how about living up to that tilte you have there about not judgin people?

it's not that they say it. it's how they say it and the condemnation that tends to go along with it.

It would seem appropriate to condemn a sin- the homosexual act. It would also seem appropriate to want to help the homosexual from their sin- if they are willing. It would seem unnatural, to tell them "its OK- this sin is consentual, so you go on and relax with your life, everything is A-OK."

To God- all sin earns death. To us- we place degrees of response. If you knew someone was a murderer- or a thief, would you treat them equally in your demeanor?

We all struggle with this- it is difficult to love the sinner, and hate the sin. Even murderers are forgiven though, when they repent and come to Jesus.

G

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The punishment for all sin, is death- whether it is the homosexual act

except there is no reason to think "the homosexual act" IS a sin... at least, not for anyone who doesn't observe and keep all the levitical laws, so, for example, any man who shaves or woman who wears pants who calls homosexuality a sin is a hypocrit

 

[Gusoceros]

"So are you saying that if someone says homosexuality is a sin, that that means they are condemning those who are?"

You can't be a sin.

Also, why are there no threads about why lying or theft is a sin? A sin is a sin in God's eyes yet people seem to focus in on homosexuality on this site more than anything else. I think the people on here spending so much time on this subject trying to explain why it's so evil aren't very comfortable in their own sexuality. They're intimidated or otherwise made uncomfortable by homosexuals so they go to great lengths to discredit and disprove them to the point of almost slander. This only further alienates homosexuals as well as the general public from us, adding to the general perception that we are intolerant, judgemental and closed-minded fools.

On the opposite side you have people who come here to "confront the oppressors" and have no real desire to actually debate the subject and see another's point of view.

If you've made up your mind and aren't open to other possibilities then there's no point in going back and forth like this. All you can do now is pray for each other and shut up!!

I do not think that people that are averse to the homosexual act, are uncomfortable sexually- sounds too uber freudian for me, actually.

What I think you are seeing is a backlash to the gay rights movement. What I mean when I say movement- is that there is a concerted effort to change the landscape of the nuclear family in America, and to invent extra rights for people that are based on their sexual orientation. Such things, tend to excite people who see little wrong with the way things are in marriage, and do not think rights should be invented out of thin air. In addition- there is an edge put to it- the edge of "we are going to force you to legally accept our lifestyles- whether you want to or not."

Personally, I think had people kept their private lives private- a lot of this would not be an issue. I see no reason to redefine marriage for everybody- because 3% of the population does not like the way it is defined (even though they have access to marriage as well).

G

 

[Gusoceros]

except there is no reason to think "the homosexual act" IS a sin... at least, not for anyone who doesn't observe and keep all the levitical laws, so, for example, any man who shaves or woman who wears pants who calls homosexuality a sin is a hypocrit

TO the contrary-

1) The Old Testament Law is fulfilled for the Believers- meaning, we are not required to follow it, and we are subject to its Blessings in Christ.

2) There are plenty of old and new testament verses that identify the homosexual act as sinful.

G