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Homosexuality

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BigBadWlf

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I haven't seen any hatred in this thread. I've seen discussion on a topic as to whether or not it's a sin. I haven't seen a single statement that even implies that any homosexual is of a lower class or any less human. If you have, please show me, because I agree, bigotry about that IS wrong. Telling someone that what they are doing is a sin, whatever that sin may be, isn't wrong, and isn't hatred.
Who said anything about this thread?


Why are you trying ot limit it to this thread





take what is said about homosexuals here and around…check out Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council…the justifications for discrimination…stuff like that…
Now change what is being said and change the minority group that is beign attacked.

If this stuff were said about blacks it would be labeled (correctly) bigotry. If it was said about Jews it would be anti Semitic. For any other minority it would he hate…just because the minority being attacked is unpopular does not make hate good or moral or just.
 
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holo

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Did the Hebrew people ever follow external regulations and cultural prohibitions for no good reason other than separating themselves from the rest of the world?

Hint; answer is no. What is culture, and why would something be prohibited within a culture?

For clarity, exploring the idea of women in leadership, headcovering, etc... is a very good starting point for discussion into this issue. That wasn't simply given because cultural practices were infringing the covenant relationship archetype, but because the very example dealt directly with the covenant relationship. Marital covenants and God's covenant archetype with His chosen people are mutually linked and intimately related to one another, so the implications are far reaching for both. However, I think people often misunderstand a lot of the messages that Paul gives because they look at it as if the message itself is an end in itself. These things aren't regulations for us to follow, but examples for how a paradigmatic relationship is supposed to operate.
Sorry, but I still don't understand this. Perhaps I'm just too tired. How did marriage come into this?
 
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StTherese

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Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus...

I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church

or are you cherry picking a couple verses to prop up your personal prejudice?
Actually it is not my personal prejudice...I got it from a Catholic website on the reasons why homosexual acts are wrong!...



Condemning people just because they are different can lead to loss of salvation
I wasn't condeming people...just stating the fact that if you live a life of sin, you will reap the consequences. Sin leads to death...

Saying that all homosexuals will go to hell is one thing. There does come into play formal ignorance for instance...I do not judge anyone's soul...but we should correct and reprove those who are living a life of sin!
 
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yodafett

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Freedom of religion…all religions…not just Christianity but all

Definitely goes against the ‘no Gods before me’ thing

Give individual people the choice. Which we've always had, look back at Daniel. This amendment ensure agains a state sponsored religion, or someone being punished for their religion. I see this as being very Christian.

Abolition of slavery. Flies in the face of biblical support of slavery

Modern slavery is not slavery as it existed in biblical times. Any historical research proves that. They just happen to have the same name.

Everyone being equal…that includes gays and lesbians
Yes, we are equal. Equal in sin.
 
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kimber1

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StarJewel,


Do you think lustful acts are sinful?

Why did God create man and woman?

Why is sex procreative?

Why would sex that has no possibility of creating life not be wrong?

What is true love? How is it different from feelings/inclinations/sexual desires?

What is the meaning of suffering?
what about those that can't have children? do you think them having sex knowing they can't procreate is wrong somehow?

Just a quick question...
Why do you have a Catholic icon if you do not hold the beliefs of the CC?
If you disagree with its teachings, you are not Catholic.
ummm i don't think it's up to you to be questioning his use of icons.
 
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IamAdopted

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Are you saying that Jesus taught it was okay to condemn people because they are different? That prejudice and discrimination against a minority is ethical?

Can you cite chapter and verse where J esus says it is good and moral and just to hate those who are different?

Can you explain how discrimination and prejudice fit with Jesus’s command to love one another?

[/SIZE][/FONT]


Many things are condemned in the bible that modern Christian happily ignore.

I do not see Christians justify discrimination and hate against the overweight or the handicapped…why not?

Why is hatred directed against one minority acceptable?
This is where you are mistaken. We do not condemn the people.. We condemn the act.. For it is people whom Christ loves.. The act itself is an abomination to God.. To be in the body of believers and have this act of sin should not be tolorated.. For we are to be Holy as our Father is Holy.. We need to not accept the act but disciple people out of these acts..Through the word of God. So they too can be free of the sins of the flesh.. For Paul even said that some of the believers use to be some of these things.. I do not hate these people. For I once was walking in rebellion against God.. I too was at enmity with Him. But according to His grace He saved Me.. Now I know what My abba Father does and does not like.. For Christ is at work in me to do the Fathers will.. Do I condemn the people? Or do I say with God.. This is grave sin and no one will enter the Kingdom of God whom do these wicked acts.. So what do we do? We teach them the truth.. We show them What God says to be true so in doing this they too can come to the Father in the Name of Jesus and put off the old and put on the new.. All for the GLory of God.. Not for the Glory of man.
 
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StTherese

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so what of the infertile? Is sex with say a survivor of uterine cancer a sin then?

As a Catholic, you should look to the CC for this answer and not your personal opinion. From my understanding, sex within a marriage with a survivor of uterine cancer (whose uterus has been removed) is not a sin. Uterine cancer is a something that can happen naturally and was not chosen to be a means to limit sex to lustful acts.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection


Also:


The fecundity of marriage
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life"150 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."151 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."152
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.153 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."154
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
[SIZE=-1]When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.155 [/SIZE]
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."156
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:158
[SIZE=-1]Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.159 [/SIZE]
2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man's eternal destiny."160 [SIZE=-1]2372 The state has a responsibility for its citizens' well-being. In this capacity it is legitimate for it to intervene to orient the demography of the population. This can be done by means of objective and respectful information, but certainly not by authoritarian, coercive measures. The state may not legitimately usurp the initiative of spouses, who have the primary responsibility for the procreation and education of their children.161 In this area, it is not authorized to employ means contrary to the moral law. [/SIZE]

Why do you limit same sex relations to be only lustful. How would you respond to the accusation that the only reason you married was to satisfy your perverted sexual lusts?
Read the catechism above for the first question. If I married only to satisfy lustful desires, then it was wrong. This is not the sole purpose of marriage...

More from the Catechism
2334 "In creating men 'male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."118 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."119 2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator's generosity and fecundity: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."120 All human generations proceed from this union.121


Why are you limiting a minority from experiencing the same love you experience?
Lustful desires are not love!!!!


III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE
2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.
2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."142
[SIZE=-1]Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, "Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety." So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, "Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.' I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together." And they both said, "Amen, Amen." Then they went to sleep for the night.143 [/SIZE]
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."144 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
[SIZE=-1]The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.145 [/SIZE]
2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.
 
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yodafett

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Who said anything about this thread?


Why are you trying ot limit it to this thread





take what is said about homosexuals here and around…check out Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council…the justifications for discrimination…stuff like that…
Now change what is being said and change the minority group that is beign attacked.

If this stuff were said about blacks it would be labeled (correctly) bigotry. If it was said about Jews it would be anti Semitic. For any other minority it would he hate…just because the minority being attacked is unpopular does not make hate good or moral or just.

I was speaking in reference to this thread, because that is the discussion that was going on. I didn't see anyone bring up outside hatred or actions until you did. I apologize for not following your thoughts.

Yes, hatred target at minorities is wrong.
I couldn't agree more.

I was just clairfying that those actions weren't happening here, because it seemed like you were accusing posters in this thread of that. If I was mistaken, again, I aplolgize.
 
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Mling

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I won't debat that Paul saw those things, or that they are wrong, or that homosexuality as it is practiced in our culture is different. None of that changes what Paul wrote though. Can you show me that he was speaking to those things as opposed to the fact that it was homosexual in nature? If your supposition was the case, why wouldn't it say "sex with the young" or "sex with multiple partners simultaneously" or "sex with someone not your spouse" instead of "man with man" and "burning in their lust one toward another"? That language certainly implies that the orientation is at issue, at least in this passage.

Because when a person is exposed to something only in a particular context, it is excedingly difficult, if not impossible to separate that thing from it's context.
Another example would be a friend of mine who, given mostly where she was raised, has only really known two black males--the boy who raped her and the man who abused and stalked her. She has no problem with black women, and is very much opposed to deliberate racisim, but she still could never get close to a black man.

A person who sees male/male sexuality only in the context of Rome would be very likely to assume that all male/male sexuality takes the forms he saw. Besides, he did make references to the exploitative nature of sexuality in Rome. The exploitative conotations of the words he uses do not survive translation. References to, for example, "the effeminate and the homosexual" are very tame, sanitized, and innappropriately vague renderings of the Greek. The first word has the conotation of a man who is "soft" and lacking moral fiber. The second is seen translated in some texts as "habitual corrupter of boys." The condemnation is against the vicious elite who take advantage of those subordinate to them, and the morally "soft" sycophants who sleep their way to the top of the social ladder.
It is clear that what disturbed Paul, was, in fact the exploitation and corruption, and that that was what he was condemning. If he could not envision any other type of homosexual relationship, that was due to his never seeing one. The fact here is that we can see another type, and our culture is very much aware of non-exploitative homosexuality. So why ignore that? Paul had the advantage and disadvantage of living his particular life, and only seeing and learning the things available in his part of his world. We have our own lives, and we see things in our part of the world. Why would we ignore that? Why keep pretending that there is only Rome, and that we are only Paul, and that only the things that Paul saw could be true?

Beyond any existential thoughts, though, it's pretty simple. Paul condemned exploitative relationships. He condemned them, in large part, because they were exploitative, as evidenced by his use of words that imply much more then simple body mechanics. That the nuances and reasoning in his condemnations are lost in the translation is troubling, but we all seem to know that we are talking about something extremely different then what Paul condemned. If there is some reason why the condemnation of one thing would would carry over into something else that is related only on an extremely superficial level, anybody is welcome to share it.
 
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StTherese

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what about those that can't have children? do you think them having sex knowing they can't procreate is wrong somehow?
2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord's Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.

ummm i don't think it's up to you to be questioning his use of icons.
Why...if you claim to be Catholic, you should support Catholic doctrine and not personal opinions. I take offense to someone claiming to be Catholic and making claims that totally object to its teaching!
 
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UberLutheran

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One has to wonder: have all these Scripture "bullet passages", and all the condemnations and aspersions, and "loving the sinner and hating the sin", and using the teachings of the Church to exclude people ever caused more than a very few gay or lesbian people to become heterosexual?

One thing I do know: these behaviors and attitudes have caused many, if not most gay and lesbian people to reject the Church* and Christianity, in entirety -- and the Church will be held accountable for that.

*The Church, e.g., Christianity as a whole
 
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kimber1

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2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord's Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
and that answered my question......how exactly? :scratch:


Why...if you claim to be Catholic, you should support Catholic doctrine and not personal opinions. I take offense to someone claiming to be Catholic and making claims that totally object to its teaching!
hey, we all have freedom of thought. just bc one is Catholic does not make them a robot. and for what it's worth? i'm Catholic as well.
 
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kimber1

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One has to wonder: have all these Scripture "bullet passages", and all the condemnations and aspersions, and "loving the sinner and hating the sin", and using the teachings of the Church to exclude people ever caused more than a very few gay or lesbian people to become heterosexual?

One thing I do know: these behaviors and attitudes have caused many, if not most gay and lesbian people to reject the Church* and Christianity, in entirety -- and the Church will be held accountable for that.

*The Church, e.g., Christianity as a whole
good point uber :) :hug:
 
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StTherese

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One has to wonder: have all these Scripture "bullet passages", and all the condemnations and aspersions, and "loving the sinner and hating the sin", and using the teachings of the Church to exclude people ever caused more than a very few gay or lesbian people to become heterosexual?

One thing I do know: these behaviors and attitudes have caused many, if not most gay and lesbian people to reject the Church* and Christianity, in entirety -- and the Church will be held accountable for that.

*The Church, e.g., Christianity as a whole
The Spiritual Works of Mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in spiritual necessities (CCC #2447), those being focused on getting a soul to Heaven. The seven Spiritual Works of Mercy are:
  1. Admonish the sinner
  2. Instruct the ignorant
  3. Counsel the doubtful
  4. Comfort the sorrowful
  5. Bear wrongs patiently
  6. Forgive all injuries
  7. Pray for the living and the dead
 
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IamAdopted

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Jesus never once in all His ministry embraced the sin.. Only the sinner.. What did He say to the woman at the well? Go and what Sin no more.. The adulterous woman Mary Magdiline..Neither do I condemn the go and what sin no more.. So He does embrace sinners.. He does not embrace sin.
 
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StTherese

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Jesus never once in all His ministry embraced the sin.. Only the sinner.. What did He say to the woman at the well? Go and what Sin no more.. The adulterous woman Mary Magdiline..Neither do I condemn the go and what sin no more.. So He does embrace sinners.. He does not embrace sin.
Exactly!:thumbsup:

Also wanted to add this:

The 9 Ways We Participate in Others' Sins:
By counsel
By command
By consent
By provocation
By praise or flattery
By concealment
By partaking
By silence
By defense of the ill done
 
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yodafett

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Jesus never once in all His ministry embraced the sin.. Only the sinner.. What did He say to the woman at the well? Go and what Sin no more.. The adulterous woman Mary Magdiline..Neither do I condemn the go and what sin no more.. So He does embrace sinners.. He does not embrace sin.
Truth, but we of the church today, haven't been so good at that. There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who have persecuted and been prejudiced, on any number of topics. (not necessarilly on this board, but in the world)
 
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UberLutheran

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The Spiritual Works of Mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in spiritual necessities (CCC #2447), those being focused on getting a soul to Heaven. The seven Spiritual Works of Mercy are:
  1. Admonish the sinner
  2. Instruct the ignorant
  3. Counsel the doubtful
  4. Comfort the sorrowful
  5. Bear wrongs patiently
  6. Forgive all injuries
  7. Pray for the living and the dead

The only spiritual work of mercy that I know with regards to getting a soul to Heaven is Jesus' death on the Cross and His resurrection on the third day -- and even there, it was Jesus who did the work, not we.

Romans 3:27-31

Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn’t he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.
 
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