Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[lionroar0]

For Gods word is truth. This is what I am trying to point out.. It is more than true it IS truth..People need to hear the truth.. To be saved and born again. Not some traditions that do not line up with the scriptures.. People need Jesus..Jesus calls out them for them to be saved.. This is why Jesus came. This is why Jesus sent the Apostles. This is why Jesus sends us out to preach the Gospel of Jesus.. So that in hearing and reading and seeing they may be saved...

Yep we agree that is why belive that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

It was only after the secularism and humanism(both traditions of man.) That some protestants started to belive that Mary was no longer Ever-Virgin.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

You keep getting our positions mixed up!


NO Protestant denomination known to me has any dogma at all about how often Mary and Joseph did it after Jesus was born. I know of NO Protestant denomination with any dogmas or beliefs about that at all. I certainly don't. I don't know if they shared such intimacies once a day, 2.6 times per week, once a week, twice a month, once a month, once a year, one in thier lives or never at all. I don't know. I don't care. It's frankly none of my business. NO PROTESTANT DENOMINATION HAS A DOGMA ABOUT THIS, an official belief at all.


This is YOUR belief.
YOUR dogma.

YOU say you KNOW.
YOU say it's DOGMA.
YOU say it's of the greatest certainty.
YOU say it's of the highest importance.
YOU know how often they did it after Jesus was born.
And it's certain, and it's critical.
YOU are the one with the belief about this.
Not the Protestants.


The ball in is YOUR court.
Not ours.



Pax!


- Josiah

CJ,

Give it up. So what? To all of your points.

The Church, the early Church did believe since 300 all of the Marian dogmas. We have believed them longer that prots have disbelieved them.

if you want to disbelieve, your prerogative.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The early chrisitans did not belive that she was not ever-virgin.

Quote me a single Christian from the first or even second Century - form a document confirmed to be from that time - what says Mary was a Perpetual Virgin...


The ONLY thing I've seen is a single term "ever" in a liturgy which most date from the mid to late THIRD century - that's the earliest anyone known to me has been able to produce, and that from nothing authoritative. So, I've seen NOTHING that tells me it was believed by the earliest Christians. An occasional "ever" begins to appear in mid to late THIRD century, a single reference in a document from the mid FIFTH Century (but it's the ONLY case of it in that document). But all this is profoundly weak and not from the earliest Christians.

 

[IamAdopted]

The scriptures do not say 'Mary had other children..." the scriptures do not say "Jesus had half biological brothers and sisters..." the scriptures do not say that "After Jesus was born, she bore other children..." The scriptures do not say that "Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus birth..."

What the scriptures do say is ambiguous at best, it can mean cousins or step siblings.

there is NO evidence at all that Mary gave birth to anyone other than Christ.

But yet the sciptures tell of them.. Even an apostle speaks of James and the Lords brother but yet you choose to ignore that and say NO it is cousin.. Mary was a married woman to Joseph.. True she was a virgin when Christ was born. Joseph did not know her until after His birth..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yep we agree that is why belive that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

It was only after the secularism and humanism(both traditions of man.) That some protestants started to belive that Mary was no longer Ever-Virgin.

Peace

Well, it is a good thing it is not a "Salvation" issue for me.

1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer--righteous/dikaioV <1342> for unrighteous/adikwn <94>--that He might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362
"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249
"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

Here is the prove again.

Not one of those says anything about Mary as a Perpetual Virgin.


Try again?



.

 

[Benedicta00]

For Gods word is truth. This is what I am trying to point out.. It is more than true it IS truth..People need to hear the truth.. To be saved and born again. Not some traditions that do not line up with the scriptures.. People need Jesus..Jesus calls out them for them to be saved.. This is why Jesus came. This is why Jesus sent the Apostles. This is why Jesus sends us out to preach the Gospel of Jesus.. So that in hearing and reading and seeing they may be saved...

we got your point IAA- you disagree that we should show Mary honoer, love, respect and we are wrong and bad for believing she was sinless, assumed, etc...

we got your pnit- it's taken.

So now are you going to stop trying to ascribe beliefs to us that we don't have? (like we think grace is from her or that we enter Christ through her)

 

[Benedicta00]

But yet the sciptures tell of them.. Even an apostle speaks of James and the Lords brother but yet you choose to ignore that and say NO it is cousin.. Mary was a married woman to Joseph.. True she was a virgin when Christ was born. Joseph did not know her until after His birth..

It's ambiguous, can't you admit that? It can be cousins or steps... it's ambiguous... nothing in scripture clearly says "Mary gave birth to other kids after she had Christ.."

 

[lionroar0]

But yet the sciptures tell of them.. Even an apostle speaks of James and the Lords brother but yet you choose to ignore that and say NO it is cousin.. Mary was a married woman to Joseph.. True she was a virgin when Christ was born. Joseph did not know her until after His birth..

The dangers of straying from Apostolic Tradition. Is erroneous interpretations.

http://blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/...&verse=1&word=brother&show_strongs=no&page=11

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mar&chapter=6&verse=3&strongs=80&page=


Adelphos
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother

2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

And thus the Scriptures do not mention other children of Mary.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

Not one of those says anything about Mary as a Perpetual Virgin.


Try again?



.

to those who believe no proof is needed- to those who don't- nothing will ever be good enough...

You are not going to find what you are looking for. So you do need to stop badgering us. There is nothing written until the 3 century on the PV. That is a huge "so what" to us, to you it means the world.

It's over CJ...

You go ahead and hold on to what ever it is that you do believe and have peace about it.

 

[IamAdopted]

we got your point IAA- you disagree that we should show Mary honoer, love, respect and we are wrong and bad for believing she was sinless, assumed, etc...

we got your pnit- it's taken.

So now are you going to stop trying to ascribe beliefs to us that we don't have? (like we think grace is from her or that we enter Christ through her)

what you don't understand is that truth needs to be spoken.. For the blind to see. So many can come to the saving knowledge of Christ through His written word. So that Christ can be preached. So that man can be saved. It has nothing to do with you.. It has everything to do with Gods word.. People are dying out there without knowing Christ..

 

[lionroar0]

Not one of those says anything about Mary as a Perpetual Virgin.


Try again?

Sure do.

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

The dangers of straying from Apostolic Tradition. Is erroneous interpretations.

http://blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/...&verse=1&word=brother&show_strongs=no&page=11

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mar&chapter=6&verse=3&strongs=80&page=


Adelphos
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother

2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

And thus the Scriptures do not mention other children of Mary.

Peace

Tradition is good but it is not always truth.. Gods word is Truth... The Apostles never preached Mary.. Never.. They preached Christ and Him crucified and risen.. This is a tradition that I can stick to.. For this is true Apostle tradtion..

 

[Benedicta00]

what you don't understand is that truth needs to be spoken.. For the blind to see. So many can come to the saving knowledge of Christ through His written word. So that Christ can be preached. So that man can be saved. It has nothing to do with you.. It has everything to do with Gods word.. People are dying out there without knowing Christ..

Speak it as you know it- just don't bare a false witness against us...

In fact why don't you just preach your beliefs as you know then to be true and leave us out of it altogether...

 

[Benedicta00]

what you don't understand is that truth needs to be spoken.. For the blind to see. So many can come to the saving knowledge of Christ through His written word. So that Christ can be preached. So that man can be saved. It has nothing to do with you.. It has everything to do with Gods word.. People are dying out there without knowing Christ..

so what does all your Mary threads have to do with this?

 

[IamAdopted]

so what does all your Mary threads have to do with this?

Getting the truth out.. As it is written..

 

[lionroar0]

Tradition is good but it is not always truth.. Gods word is Truth... The Apostles never preached Mary.. Never.. They preached Christ and Him crucified and risen.. This is a tradition that I can stick to.. For this is true Apostle tradtion...

What makes you think Catholics peach any different?

The CC has been preaching Chris for the better part of 2000yrs.

In fact this is what all Catholics say in mass everyday.

This is the misteyr of our faith. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Chris will come again.

It would behoove you not to put words in our mouths or presume to tell us what we bevelive with out knowing what we belive.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

Tradition is good but it is not always truth.. Gods word is Truth... The Apostles never preached Mary.. Never.. They preached Christ and Him crucified and risen.. This is a tradition that I can stick to.. For this is true Apostle tradtion..

We don't preach Mary either...

Look brother, you are under this impression and have been for years and years that Catholics worship Mary.

WE DON'T. that's all I can say to you.. we just don't.

I wish I could help you, I really do because you seem like you really do believe in your depths that we worship Mary and we don't...

I don't know what else to tell you... I feel bad for you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Getting the truth out.. As it is written..

Luke 18:13 `And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God [Mary?] be propitious to me--the sinner!

 

[Benedicta00]

Getting the truth out.. As it is written..

which is what- that Mary isn't God?

we're on board with you bro...