Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[Benedicta00]

The Old testement is not talking about Mary.. The OT speaks of Jesus.. Prophecy of Jesus.. There is only one way to enter into the Presence of the Lord and that is through JESUS.. Mary has nothing to do with us entering in.

Oh back to square one... Did Jesus come to us through Mary's body yes or no?

 

[Benedicta00]

So which interpretatin is right? Could both be right?

I love Scripture it is so deep.

Peace

My point was he is so dramatic and careful as to not agree with anything Catholic- he missed the basic interpretation any other non Catholic would have given.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh back to square one... Did Jesus come to us through Mary's body yes or no?

Of course. How often is she mentioned in the OC of the Bible as the Jews still don't believe He would be born without union from the natural father and mother.

(Young) Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, `Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,

 

[IamAdopted]

Matthew 21

The Parable of the Tenants

33"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed." 45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them.
Footnotes:

also compare this to Psalms 118

20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.
21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone; 23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.

Sola Scriptura... Bringing all scripture to interpret scripture.. Not the traditions of man.

 

[lionroar0]

19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.
21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Lets brake it down.

Open for me the gates of righteousness;
I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."

38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.

My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

But why stop there.

15 Shouts of joy and victory
resound in the tents of the righteous:
"The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!
16 The LORD's right hand is lifted high;

the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name. 50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;

There's plenty of Scriptural support for Mary being Ever-Virgin.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Sola Scriptura... Bringing all scripture to interpret scripture.. Not the traditions of man.

Well I just Sola Scriptura to interpret Scripture and support the Ever-Virginity of Mary. Not the traditions of man.

Peace

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Actually it was declared by an ecumunical counsil(sp?) and then given Papal approval.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3811.htm

Possibly his reason for thinking that our Lord Jesus Christ was not of our nature was this—that the Angel who was sent to the blessed and ever Virgin Mary said, ....

Peace

Thank you.

I read the entire document. It's very long (and stunning - absolutely stunning how ROMAN the RCC had become, even by the mid 5th Century).

Mary is referenenced MANY times - and except for that single term "ever" there's NOTHING AT ALL about the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary. It's not a teaching of the document at all, and that's the ONLY time in the entire document that that title is used. And if you didn't pay REALLY close attention - you'd miss that. It's hardly a teaching of anything. And it's mid 5th Century.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There's plenty of Scriptural support for Mary being Ever-Virgin.

Peace

Not that I can see. And it is really of little importance to me anyway.

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, [Revelation 16 "stripes/scourges"]

 

[IamAdopted]

More about the gate...John 10

1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

This shows us whom the gate is and it is not Mary. It is Jesus.

 

[Benedicta00]

The Old testement is not talking about Mary.. The OT speaks of Jesus.. Prophecy of Jesus.. There is only one way to enter into the Presence of the Lord and that is through JESUS.. Mary has nothing to do with us entering in.

we don't think we enter God's presence through Mary.

We say that God entered the world through her womb.

Thus, she is the source where our graces comes from but not in a literal sense- only in a figurative sense.

I dolt care if you think that is inappropriate, I can respect that feeling- but this is not what this and all your other threads are about.

They are about YOU trying to show other non Catholics in here that we teach and believe that grace comes from Mary.

We don't believe that- don't claim that.

YOU are the one who posted a figurative phrase.

YOU are he one who chose not to post any actual Catholic teaching, only flowery phrases and speeches that are opinions.

All you really ave shown to us is that there have been men who have lived from the beginning until now who love and honer Mary.

Okay, your point is what?

You disagree? we got that already.

 

[lionroar0]

Thank you.

I read the entire document. It's very long (and stunning - absolutely stunning how ROMAN the RCC had become, even by the mid 5th Century).

Mary is referenenced MANY times - and except for that single term "ever" there's NOTHING AT ALL about the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary. It's not a teaching of the document at all, and that's the ONLY time in the entire document that that title is used. And if you didn't pay REALLY close attention - you'd miss that. It's hardly a teaching of anything. And it's mid 5th Century.

I see you are still operating under a dbl standard.

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

Well I just Sola Scriptura to interpret Scripture and support the Ever-Virginity of Mary. Not the traditions of man.

Peace

Not that I can see.. The scriptures tell us that she married Joseph.. That She had other children. THerefore does not suppost the theory.

 

[lionroar0]

The Old testement is not talking about Mary.. The OT speaks of Jesus.. Prophecy of Jesus.. There is only one way to enter into the Presence of the Lord and that is through JESUS.. Mary has nothing to do with us entering in.

I wasn't speaking about us entering through Mary. That is proposterous and heresy.

I was pointing out that only Jesus came through Mary but it went over your head.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Not that I can see.. The scriptures tell us that she married Joseph.. That She had other children. THerefore does not suppost the theory.

No they don't. There are no children of Mary other then Jesus mentioned.


Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

More about the gate...John 10 This shows us whom the gate is and it is not Mary. It is Jesus.

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Like I have stated in a previous post. The belive that Mary was not ever-virgin is the product of seculariam and humanism. Not early christianity nor the reformers.

Peace

You keep getting our positions mixed up!


NO Protestant denomination known to me has any dogma at all about how often Mary and Joseph did it after Jesus was born. I know of NO Protestant denomination with any dogmas or beliefs about that at all. I certainly don't. I don't know if they shared such intimacies once a day, 2.6 times per week, once a week, twice a month, once a month, once a year, one in thier lives or never at all. I don't know. I don't care. It's frankly none of my business. NO PROTESTANT DENOMINATION HAS A DOGMA ABOUT THIS, an official belief at all.


This is YOUR belief.
YOUR dogma.

YOU say you KNOW.
YOU say it's DOGMA.
YOU say it's of the greatest certainty.
YOU say it's of the highest importance.
YOU know how often they did it after Jesus was born.
And it's certain, and it's critical.
YOU are the one with the belief about this.
Not the Protestants.


The ball in is YOUR court.
Not ours.



Pax!


- Josiah

 

[IamAdopted]

we don't think we enter God's presence through Mary.

We say that God entered the world through her womb.

Thus, she is the source where our graces comes from but not in a literal sense- only in a figurative sense.

I dolt care if you think that is inappropriate, I can respect that feeling- but this is not what this and all your other threads are about.

They are about YOU trying to show other non Catholics in here that we teach and believe that grace comes from Mary.

We don't believe that- don't claim that.

YOU are the one who posted a figurative phrase.

YOU are he one who chose not to post any actual Catholic teaching, only flowery phrases and speeches that are opinions.

All you really ave shown to us is that there have been men who have lived from the beginning until now who love and honer Mary.

Okay, your point is what?

You disagree? we got that already.

For Gods word is truth. This is what I am trying to point out.. It is more than true it IS truth..People need to hear the truth.. To be saved and born again. Not some traditions that do not line up with the scriptures.. People need Jesus..Jesus calls out them for them to be saved.. This is why Jesus came. This is why Jesus sent the Apostles. This is why Jesus sends us out to preach the Gospel of Jesus.. So that in hearing and reading and seeing they may be saved...

 

[Benedicta00]

Not that I can see.. The scriptures tell us that she married Joseph.. That She had other children. THerefore does not suppost the theory.

The scriptures do not say 'Mary had other children..." the scriptures do not say "Jesus had half biological brothers and sisters..." the scriptures do not say that "After Jesus was born, she bore other children..." The scriptures do not say that "Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus birth..."

What the scriptures do say is ambiguous at best, it can mean cousins or step siblings.

there is NO evidence at all that Mary gave birth to anyone other than Christ.

 

[IamAdopted]

No they don't. There are no children of Mary other then Jesus mentioned.


Peace

Only because you choose to switch the brothers and sisters to cousins.. To fit your theory.. The scriptures tell us it is sin to not give yourself of you husband or wife.. We are only to do this for a while for prayer but Yet you say that this is what happened with Mary and Joseph. I see no where in scripture that says that being a virgin is any more righteous than the married couple for our righteosness comes from Christ..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

For Gods word is truth. This is what I am trying to point out.. It is more than true it IS truth..People need to hear the truth.. To be saved and born again. Not some traditions that do not line up with the scriptures.. People need Jesus..Jesus calls out them for them to be saved.. This is why Jesus came. This is why Jesus sent the Apostles. This is why Jesus sends us out to preach the Gospel of Jesus.. So that in hearing and reading and seeing they may be saved...

(Young) John 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, `He who is believing in Me, doth not believe in Me, but in Him who sent me;