Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[LittleLambofJesus]

NKJV) Psalms 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

The Holy Spirit is not the Trinity.

I was asking for the earliest explicit mention of the Trinity.

Neither does pslam 110
Peace

I didn't say it was just the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 37:13 "Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this [Child] is destined for the falling and ressurection of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi. Possibly Psalms?

NKJV) Psalms 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

we're looking for three in one.

And I'd like to know where the world is Holy Trinity said in the bible? God never said he was the Holy Trinity? So why in the heck should I believe he is!

Oh these traditions of men.. who can take them!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

With the exception of the "James" text, which is almost assuredly pseudopigraphical, none of these ECF's refer to Mary as PV.

It doesn't either. Catholics refer to it a lot in this discussion, so I've quoted the entire text, verbatim, more than once I believe - so that we can ACTUALLY READ IT rather than this din of "but it says Mary was a Perpetual Virgin, it really does!" No it doesn't. I mentions NOTHING REMOTELY OF THE SORT, it doesn't even remotely hint at it.


Not only is God's holy inerrant written Word completely silent about this and unsupportive of this dogma, but so are the rejected uncanonical books. And so are the earliest authors whom the RCC calls "Church Fathers." It's not until the mid Third Century - at the earliest - that we see anything remotely suggesting such.


Again, just to be clear here, the late mention of it doesn't make it wrong, per se, but just saying something is true doesn't make it right, per se (or else we'd need to embrace that all voices are correct). It's a teaching in search of some verification - and I think that's what the Protestants here are seeking.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah


.

 

[lionroar0]

I didn't say it was just the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 37:13 "Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this [Child] is destined for the falling and ressurection of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

It still does not mention the Trinity. Three seperate and disctinc persons but of the same undivisible(sp?) essence.


Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

we're looking for three in one.

And I'd like to know where the world is Holy Trinity said in the bible? God never said he was the Holy Trinity? So why in the heck should I believe he is!

Oh these traditions of men.. who can take them!

I agree. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yep. Even the reformers themselves belive it.

Peace

but it's irevelant... They are irrelevant- the only think that is relative is a believer and their bible.

 

[lionroar0]

It doesn't either. Catholics refer to it a lot in this discussion, so I've quoted the entire text, verbatim, more than once I believe - so that we can ACTUALLY READ IT rather than this din of "but it says Mary was a Perpetual Virgin, it really does!" No it doesn't. I mentions NOTHING REMOTELY OF THE SORT, it doesn't even remotely hint at it.


Not only is God's holy inerrant written Word completely silent about this and unsupportive of this dogma, but so are the rejected uncanonical books. And so are the earliest authors whom the RCC calls "Church Fathers." It's not until the mid Third Century - at the earliest - that we see anything remotely suggesting such.


Again, just to be clear here, the late mention of it doesn't make it wrong, per se, but just saying something is true doesn't make it right, per se (or else we'd need to embrace that all voices are correct). It's a teaching in search of some verification - and I think that's what the Protestants here are seeking.

The Scriptures are totally silent and unsupportive of the Trinity but yet we all belive it.

Also the reformers also belived that Mary-is Ever-Virging including Luther.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

I agree. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.

Those darn men!! Giving us their tradition..who do they think they are going outside of what is written!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Those darn men!! Giving us their tradition..who do they think they are going outside of what is written!

I don't know the Greek that well, but what do these verses imply?

Acts 17:29 `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think of the God[head] to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; tou <3588> {OF THE} qeou<2316> {GOD,}

Romans 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; kai <2532> {AND} qeiothV <2305>

Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, thV <3588> {OF THE} qeothtoV <2320> {GODHEAD}

 

[IamAdopted]

The concept of the trinity is in the beginning.. Genesis.. Clear throughout the bible.. The word is not in there but the concept is.. The concept of Mary being a PV is not in the bible because the bible speaks of Jesus brothers and sisters and Mary being wed to Joseph.. So this suggests that she was not a pv. Only those which want to prove the theory try to argue away what the bible tells us. Such as cousins and Mary was married but not really ect..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Evidence for the PERPETUAL Virginity of Mary??


The Scirptures form God's holy inerrant written Word....





From authors whom the Catholic denomination tends to embrace:

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

Nothing.

Not only here, but in the entire book - there's nothing whatsoever about Mary being a Perpetual Virgin.

I agree, Ignatius - while only a fallible, sinful author no different from you or I, he nonetheless is very early and so at least SOMETHING could be made that perhaps the concept was known at the time - even if perhaps not correct. But he makes no mention of it at all. None.

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362

Nothing.

I've read the entire book (several times actually) and quoted it verbatim here at CF (more than once, I beleive). Catholics reference this rejected noncanonical book a lot in this regard, but rarely if ever actually quote it because there's NOTHING in this book at even remotely teaches that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.

I invite you to actually read the rejected, noncanonical book. It is completely unsupportive of this dogma.

"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249

Zip.

"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

Nothing about a PERPETUAL virgin...
Nope.


And too late to be apostolic - there's no way this author could have had any contact with any Apostle, even assuming that's where he would have learned it and assuming that it was correct. The assumptions are impossible according to the date.

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

A lot of horrible hermeneutics and very strange theology here, but NOTHING about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin. Nope.


And again, too late to be apostolic.







Pax!


- Josiah

 

[lionroar0]

Psalm 118

20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

Romans

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

What do these verses imply?

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

What do these verses imply?

Peace

That Jesus is our sheep gate.. That He is the only way that we can enter. That He alone is Righteous..

 

[Benedicta00]

Evidence for the PERPETUAL Virginity of Mary??


The Scirptures form God's holy inerrant written Word....





From authors whom the Catholic denomination tends to embrace:


[/B]


Nothing.

Not only here, but in the entire book - there's nothing whatsoever about Mary being a Perpetual Virgin.

I agree, Ignatius - while only a fallible, sinful author no different from you or I, he nonetheless is very early and so at least SOMETHING could be made that perhaps the concept was known at the time - even if perhaps not correct. But he makes no mention of it at all. None.


[/B]


Nothing.

I've read the entire book (several times actually) and quoted it verbatim here at CF (more than once, I beleive). Catholics reference this rejected noncanonical book a lot in this regard, but rarely if ever actually quote it because there's NOTHING in this book at even remotely teaches that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.

I invite you to actually read the rejected, noncanonical book. It is completely unsupportive of this dogma.


[/B]


Zip.



[/B]


Nothing about a PERPETUAL virgin...
Nope.


And too late to be apostolic - there's no way this author could have had any contact with any Apostle, even assuming that's where he would have learned it and assuming that it was correct. The assumptions are impossible according to the date.



[/B]


A lot of horrible hermeneutics and very strange theology here, but NOTHING about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin. Nope.


And again, too late to be apostolic.







Pax!


- Josiah

No.. veneration, CJ- what thread are you in? I was showing that from the beginning the first generation of Christians indeed honored Mary. They didn't talk about her in the disrespectful way ppl, non Catholic do today. They did have a respect for her.

Honesty you have PV on your brain.

 

[lionroar0]

That Jesus is our sheep gate.. That He is the only way that we can enter. That He alone is Righteous..

See you got the concept wrong. Even though I provided Scriptural support.

The gate is for the righteous. There is only one who is righteous. That gate can only be Mary. The gate that God used to become incarnate.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

That Jesus is our sheep gate.. That He is the only way that we can enter. That He alone is Righteous..

This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

Oh brother- the drama..

It means the righteous go to heaven through Christ.

You mean to tell me you can't even say that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What do these verses imply?

Psalm 118

20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

Romans

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;



Peace

That we need the Christ?

1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer--righteous/dikaioV <1342> for unrighteous/adikwn <94>--that He might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

Revelation 22:11 he who is unrighteous/adikwn <91> --let him be unrighteous/adikhsatw <91> still, and he who is filthy--let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous--let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified--let him be sanctified still:

 

[IamAdopted]

19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.
21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.

This speaks of Jesus..

 

[lionroar0]

This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

Oh brother- the drama..

It means the righteous go to heaven through Christ.

You mean to tell me you can't even say that?

So which interpretatin is right? Could both be right?

I love Scripture it is so deep.

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

See you got the concept wrong. Even though I provided Scriptural support.

The gate is for the righteous. There is only one who is righteous. That gate can only be Mary. The gate that God used to become incarnate.

Peace

The Old testement is not talking about Mary.. The OT speaks of Jesus.. Prophecy of Jesus.. There is only one way to enter into the Presence of the Lord and that is through JESUS.. Mary has nothing to do with us entering in.