Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

[racer]

Let's start here. Genesis 4:1. The beginning of marriage.

No, start where God did in Gen 2 where Eve is identified as Adam's wife. I quoted it for you, what else do you want?

Your interpretation of Genesis 6 goes against the verse in Matthew I quoted earlier. Besides, can angels beget men?

No, but some people believe that women begat hybrids--half human and half angel. The fathers were supposed to be fallen angels . . . but that's a whole nother topic . . . .

BTW, my knickers are not only twisted, but are inside out and on backwards.

Got dressed in a hurry didya?

 

[Asinner]

Exactly who is created in His image? Man or woman? Are we completely in His image or just a little bit like Him?

Because of the fall we barely resemble Him. In the beginning, though, it was not like this. Adam was made in the image of God and was going to become a god . . . everyday, growing closer to His creator, becoming more and more perfect. Would Adam ever attain to the perfection of God. No. He would infinitely grow closer to Him . . . like when we get to Heaven, we will be on a continual journey towards God.

My point was that being made in His image, denotes virginity. Christ knew no sexual relation, nor did His mother. They are both likened to Adam and Eve before the fall, in Paradise.

Love,
Christina

 

[IamAdopted]

Because of the fall we barely resemble Him. In the beginning, though, it was not like this. Adam was made in the image of God and was going to become a god . . . everyday, growing closer to His creator, becoming more and more perfect. Would Adam ever attain to the perfection of God. No. He would infinitely grow closer to Him . . . like when we get to Heaven, we will be on a continual journey towards God.

My point was that being made in His image, denotes virginity. Christ knew no sexual relation, nor did His mother. They are both likened to Adam and Eve before the fall, in Paradise.

Love,
Christina

Adam was going to be a god? Where is this stated?

 

[Asinner]

No, start where God did in Gen 2 where Eve is identified as Adam's wife. I quoted it for you, what else do you want?

This prophecy was not fulfilled though until after the fall.

No, but some people believe that women begat hybrids--half human and half angel. The fathers were supposed to be fallen angels . . . but that's a whole nother topic . . . .

Yes. Let us save that scandal for another time.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My point was that being made in His image, denotes virginity. Christ knew no sexual relation, nor did His mother. They are both likened to Adam and Eve before the fall, in Paradise.

1. Where does Genesis chapters 1 and 2 say that Adam and Eve never had sexual relations?


2. Since God COMMANDED Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, unless you assume they were too stupid or ignorant or left uninformed to know how to obey that COMMAND, are you assuming that they in fact sinned prior to the Fall?


But, you stated, as a fact, that they had no relations before the Fall. I'm curious where the text says that.


Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[IamAdopted]

This prophecy was not fulfilled though until after the fall.



Yes. Let us save that scandal for another time.

Prophesy?

 

[Asinner]

Adam was going to be a god? Where is this stated?

Our purpose is unending union with God, or Theosis. We are continually being transformed into the image of God.

Love,
Christina

 

[IamAdopted]

1. Where does Genesis chapters 1 and 2 say that Adam and Eve never had sexual relations?


2. Since God COMMANDED Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, unless you assume they were too stupid or ignorant or left uninformed to know how to obey that COMMAND, are you assuming that they in fact sinned prior to the Fall?


But, you stated, as a fact, that they had no relations before the Fall. I'm curious where the text says that.


Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

And all this time I thought that the first sin was eating the forbidden fruit. Not rebelling against the command of being fruitful and mulitply..

 

[IamAdopted]

Our purpose is unending union with God, or Theosis. We are continually being transformed into the image of God.

Love,
Christina

There is only one God.. Created things cannot become God or gods.. This is paganism..

 

[Asinner]

1. Where does Genesis chapters 1 and 2 say that Adam and Eve never had sexual relations?

Where does it state that they did?

2. Since God COMMANDED Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, unless you assume they were too stupid or ignorant or left uninformed to know how to obey that COMMAND, are you assuming that they in fact sinned prior to the Fall?

God making provision for sexual relation is quite different from sexual relations taking place. Adam knew Eve and she conceived after the Fall (Gen 4:1).

But, you stated, as a fact, that they had no relations before the Fall. I'm curious where the text says that.

Genesis 4:1

 

[IamAdopted]

Where does it state that they did?
[/SIZE]



God making provision for sexual relation is quite different from sexual relations taking place. Adam knew Eve and she conceived after the Fall (Gen 4:1).






Genesis 4:1

No this is when we are told that Eve begat Cain.. Not when they had thier first marriage encounter..

 

[Asinner]

There is only one God.. Created things cannot become God or gods.. This is paganism..

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.(2 Cor 3:18)

 

[Asinner]

No this is when we are told that Eve begat Cain.. Not when they had thier first marriage encounter..

So, then in your interpretation, Eve was barren until she conceived Cain? Please show me in the Holy Scriptures where 1)Eve had sexual relations with Adam prior to the fall and 2) that she was unable to conceive until she had Cain.

 

[IamAdopted]

So, then in your interpretation, Eve was barren until she conceived Cain? Please show me in the Holy Scriptures where 1)Eve had sexual relations with Adam prior to the fall and 2) that she was unable to conceive until she had Cain.

Does every woman get pregnant on thier first time or every time they have maritial relations? NO.. But that does not mean they are not trying... This was a commandment from God.. To not obey it would mean rebellion.. Sin.. They did not sin until they ate the forbidden fruit.. So therefore they became one flesh and were in the process of having children..

 

[Asinner]

Does every woman get pregnant on thier first time or every time they have maritial relations? NO.. But that does not mean they are not trying... This was a commandment from God.. To not obey it would mean rebellion.. Sin.. They did not sin until they ate the forbidden fruit.. So therefore they became one flesh and were in the process of having children..

Do you honestly believe that Eve, the first woman who abode in Paradise, without sickness, disease, or death, would have fertility issues?

Did someone say "vain philosophies"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Asinner
So, then in your interpretation, Eve was barren until she conceived Cain? Please show me in the Holy Scriptures where 1)Eve had sexual relations with Adam prior to the fall and 2) that she was unable to conceive until she had Cain.

Why is that important to know? Many women in the Bible were "barren" and while married.

 

[Kristos]

1. Where does Genesis chapters 1 and 2 say that Adam and Eve never had sexual relations?

Where does it say that they did? It doesn not.

2. Since God COMMANDED Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, unless you assume they were too stupid or ignorant or left uninformed to know how to obey that COMMAND, are you assuming that they in fact sinned prior to the Fall?

You make a huge assumption - that the command to be multiply is equal to the post fall concept of procreation. Or are you asserting that they did multiply before the Fall?


The famous Byzantine commentator on the Psalms, Zigabenos, repeats the same thoughts:

Had Adam not sinned, there would be no necessity for him to enter into carnal intercourse with Eve. For sin gave birth to that form of union… And although marriages by the law became honorable before the Lord for the sake of procreation, nonetheless in their essence they are the offspring of sin… Therefore it is not surprising that David himself had the misfortune to sin, in a way submitting to the necessity of nature. (Euthymius Zigabenos, Commentary on the Psalter [in Russian], Montreal: 1986, p. 401)​

St. Athanasius the Great comments on Psalm 50 in the same spirit:

God's original intention was that we give birth not through marriage and corruption; the violation of the commandment introduced marriage as a result of Adam's transgression, i.e., as the result of falling away from the commandment given to him by God. (Collection of Works [in Russian], vol. 4, p. 175)​

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I know, we've just about beat this into the ground. But, I have some questions and instead of further confusing another OP, I decided to start my own.

If you are tired of the topic or feel the discussion is fruitless, feel free not to participate.

I've never really gotten into a real in depth discussion on this subject. Because of this I'm sure the information I am looking for has been given here but I've missed it.

So, with all of that said. Here are my questions. How do proponents of Mary's Perpetual Virginity explain away these verses:

Matt 1:24; Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Matt 1:25; And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This is quite a heavy indication that once Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph came together as husband and wife. I admit it is not definitive evidence, so please explain how we can infer that they NEVER came together as husband and wife.


Second are these verses:

Matt 13:55; Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?


Matt 13:56; And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

Okay, I'm do know that the argument has to do with the word used for "brethren, brothers and sisters." So explain to me what this argument entails. Is the word used the only word that would work in these verses? Is there only one word that identifies "brothers/sisters/cousins?" If not, what other word would work? Does the Catholic bible use a different word?

Anyhow, participate if you wish or ignore the post if you prefer . . . . .

When I first read this, I was thinking your questions were addressed to Catholics and Orthodox, primarily.
I notice that our Protestant brothers and sisters are giving most of the answers.

Now, I wonder if the questions were addressed instead, to them not CCs and the Orthodox among us.

I am sure many think they can answer better than we can so were quick to jump in.

Please correct any misunderstanding I might have.

 

[Asinner]

Why is that important to know? Many women in the Bible were "barren" and while married.

How many children did Eve have after Cain?

Love,
Christina

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You make a huge assumption - that the command to be multiply is equal to the post fall concept of procreation. Or are you asserting that they did multiply before the Fall?

Who said anything about that?
Many women in the Bible were "barren" and while married and have joyful sex.