Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

[Kristos]

There is only one God.. Created things cannot become God or gods.. This is paganism..

I said, Ye are gods

 

[Asinner]

Who said anything about that?
Many women in the Bible were "barren" and while married and have joyful sex.

I see, you too, are rendering Holy Scripture with your passions?

 

[Kristos]

Who said anything about that?
Many women in the Bible were "barren" and while married and have joyful sex.

The post that I quote said that. Californiasomething. Read again if you want.

 

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

Do you honestly believe that Eve, the first woman who abode in Paradise, without sickness, disease, or death, would have fertility issues?

Did someone say "vain philosophies"?

I do not understand all the talk about fertility issues. Children are a gift from God. Eve conceived when God wanted her too.

I hope you know you can have sex and not conceive even if you are fertile. Remember it was God's plan not Adam and Eve's.

Though I do not really think it matters, there is no reason to assume that Adam and Eve did not enjoy each other in every way that God intended between a man and wife. It is more logical to assume they had marrital relations.

Just my opinion

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I said, Ye are gods

2 Chronicles 31:1 Now when all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out to the cities of Judah and broke the sacred pillars in pieces, cut down the wooden images, and threw down the high places and the altars -- from all Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh -- until they had utterly destroyed them all.

Reve 18:12 "merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 "and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

 

[Asinner]

I do not understand all the talk about fertility issues. Children are a gift from God. Eve conceived when God wanted her too.

I hope you know you can have sex and not conceive even if you are fertile. Remember it was God's plan not Adam and Eve's.

Though I do not really think it matters, there is no reason to assume that Adam and Eve did not enjoy each other in every way that God intended between a man and wife.

Just my opinion

All the talk is centered around a new belief that Adam and Eve had sexual relations prior to the fall. This has not ever been the teachings of the Church and in Gen 4:1 is when married life began and Cain was conceived, not before. The argument is that if Eve did have relations prior to the fall, there were no children produced from them; thusly, she would have had fertility issues (highly unlikely given her previous perfect state).

Love,
Christina

 

[Kristos]

The famous desert dweller, George of Zadonsk, wrote to a spiritual daughter who was inquiring about Adam and Eve and marital relations:

…May holy truth enlighten you to the correct understanding of [Scriptural] words. I am pleased to cite an example from the 18th Discourse of St. John Chrysostom on the 1st book [Genesis] on your so unexpected [for me] statement, in which, incidentally, St. John expresses the following words: And Adam knew his wife Eve. Mind you, when did this take place? After disobedience, after the exile from Paradise; then intercourse began; before disobedience, they lived like Angels, and nowhere is there any mention of intercourse. Because previously we were not subject to physical needs, therefore from the beginning virginity was preeminent. But when, due to their weakness, disobedience occurred, sin made inroads and virginity stepped aside (retreated), as from those unworthy of so great a virtue. Then the practice of carnal union appeared. Please take heed to the great merit of virginity, what an elevated and great deed it is, which is exalted above human nature and needs." You can read further in the book of discourses the correct explanation of the words cited, and see that it is not by carnal union or intercourse that the human race multiplies, but by the unfathomable power of God's blessing. Is it clear to you now that there was no commandment about carnal union but that it took place after the transgression and disobedience which might not have occurred [i.e., could have been avoided]?
​

 

[Kristos]

del

 

[Kristos]

2 Chronicles 31:1 Now when all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out to the cities of Judah and broke the sacred pillars in pieces, cut down the wooden images, and threw down the high places and the altars -- from all Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh -- until they had utterly destroyed them all.

Reve 18:12 "merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 "and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.

Was there a point in these quotes?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The famous desert dweller, George of Zadonsk, wrote to a spiritual daughter who was inquiring about Adam and Eve and marital relations:

Hi. The Jews and Muslims also use stories and fables to interpret the Bible and look where they are at now.

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

 

[Asinner]

Hi. The Jews and Muslims also use stories and fables to interpret the Bible and look where they are at now.

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

If you are genuinely concerned for our salvation, perhaps prayer is the place to start and not condemnation.

Love,
Christina

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you are genuinely concerned for our salvation, perhaps prayer is the place to start and not condemnation.

Love,
Christina

I never said I condemned anyone.
All I said was "what saith the Scriptures"

John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings/grafaV <1124>, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

I never said I condemned anyone.
All I said was "what saith the Scriptures"

John 5:39 `Ye search the Writings/grafaV <1124>, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning Me;

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

These threads always ende up getting a little too personal.

Maybe it would be better if threads like this were in OBOB since the OP was obviously addressed to us and Orthodox.

It would be very nice and in fact charitable to all allow us to answer the questions.

 

[Oblio]

Hi. The Jews and Muslims also use stories and fables to interpret the Bible and look where they are at now.

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

What's that to do with the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church ? They are neither the Jewish deniers of Christ, nor the Muslim archenemies of His Church.

 

[IamAdopted]

All the talk is centered around a new belief that Adam and Eve had sexual relations prior to the fall. This has not ever been the teachings of the Church and in Gen 4:1 is when married life began and Cain was conceived, not before. The argument is that if Eve did have relations prior to the fall, there were no children produced from them; thusly, she would have had fertility issues (highly unlikely given her previous perfect state).

Love,
Christina

No it is centered around truth.. Not a new belief.. I have never heard this in all the time I have been a Christian..Whew..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What's that to do with the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church ? They are neither the Jewish deniers of Christ, nor the Muslim archenemies of His Church.

Hi. They still wrote their own interpretations of the Bible, no? And I do not consider Muslims or Jews "enemies" of the church.
The 3 Abrahamic religions just view the Bible differently [as the Atheists try to explain to us sometimes LOL]. They of course would just like for all religions to just disappear.

Peter 3:16 as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings/grafaV <1124>, unto their own destruction.

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

 

[IamAdopted]

What's that to do with the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church ? They are neither the Jewish deniers of Christ, nor the Muslim archenemies of His Church.

they beleive in fables.. Contrary to what the written word teaches.. God commanded Adam and Eve to become one flesh and to replenish the earth. This was before the fall of man.. Not doing what God commanded would be disobedience which we all know Adam did in eating the forbidden fruit..To say that the institue of marraige and the sexual relations that go with it it is fact denying the God whom created it.. To say that sex was a part of the fallen nature is not truth.. Read the curse of after the fall.. Having sex was not one of them. So therefore sex is not a curse but a blessing.. Jesus not being married had noting to do with Adam and Eve.. This had to do with that He was fully man and fully God.. He was one whom created Adam and Eve. He also was the one whom created Mary..

 

[racer]

When I first read this, I was thinking your questions were addressed to Catholics and Orthodox, primarily.
I notice that our Protestant brothers and sisters are giving most of the answers.

Now, I wonder if the questions were addressed instead, to them not CCs and the Orthodox among us.

I am sure many think they can answer better than we can so were quick to jump in.

Please correct any misunderstanding I might have.

Actually, my questions are to anybody who is familiar/knowledgeable with the different beliefs/arguments regarding Mary's PV. I really just want an honest discussion where people backup their assertions and show a basis for what they believe and why other than just stating things as facts . . . . .

 

[racer]

These threads always ende up getting a little too personal.

In spite of how hard some work to prevent that occurance. Asinner and I get personal because we are good friends and we can do that with each other . . . .

Maybe it would be better if threads like this were in OBOB since the OP was obviously addressed to us and Orthodox.

Well, if I were just looking for the Catholic and Orthodox view, maybe. But, I want all input. I want all sides of the arguments explored. I'm seeing some good points from all directions. Personally, I don't see enough evidence to support a definitive view either way.

It would be very nice and in fact charitable to all allow us to answer the questions.

Please do. I wasn't aware that anybody felt unwelcome to reply. For the record if you review the most recent conversations in the thread, most input has been from a rather vocal EO and a just as vocal RC. They have kept me rather busy . . . . but I don't mind.

 

[racer]

Genesis 4:1

Okay, let me do your work for you.

Genesis 4:1; And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

The most solid argument you could make from this was that maybe they did not have sexual relations, however she was still identified as his wife prior to this in Genesis 2. Are you saying that until they had sex, they were not married?