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The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).

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Eila

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The breath of life left him, so he died and he went to the grave, was buried as his father and their fathers were.

Genesis 25:7-10
7 Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. 9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite, 10 the field Abraham had bought from the Hittites. [b] There Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah.

Genesis 15:13-15

13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Just like others were buried in their graves:

Genesis 15:15 "thou shalt go to thy fathers"

Here is Strong's definition:

And thou shalt go
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0935 bow' {bo}
a primitive root; TWOT - 212; v
AV - come 1435, bring 487, ... in 233, enter 125, go 123, carry 17,
...down 23, pass 13, ...out 12, misc 109; 2577
1) to go in, enter, come, go, come in
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to enter, come in
1a2) to come
1a2a) to come with
1a2b) to come upon, fall or light upon, attack (enemy)
1a2c) to come to pass
1a3) to attain to
1a4) to be enumerated
1a5) to go
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to lead in
1b2) to carry in
1b3) to bring in, cause to come in, gather, cause to come,
bring near, bring against, bring upon
1b4) to bring to pass
1c) (Hophal)
1c1) to be brought, brought in
1c2) to be introduced, be put

to thy fathers
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
01 'ab {awb}
a root; TWOT - 4a; n m
AV - father 1205, chief 2, families 2, desire 1, fatherless + 0369 1,
forefathers + 07223 1, patrimony 1, prince 1, principal 1; 1215
1) father of an individual
2) of God as father of his people
3) head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4) ancestor
4a) grandfather, forefathers -- of person
4b) of people
5) originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6) of producer, generator (fig.)
7) of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8) term of respect and honour
9) ruler or chief (spec.)


Genesis 25:8-9 says

" 8Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
9And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;"



We see the burial here after he was gathered to his people.

Here is stong's definition on the Hebrew words:




gave up the ghost
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
01478 gava` {gaw-vah'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 328; v
AV - die 12, give up the ghost 9, dead 1, perish 2, dead 1; 24
1) to expire, die, perish, give up the ghost, yield up the ghost,
be dead, be ready to die
1a) (Qal) to expire, die, be about to die




Notice this says nothing about breath.



[of years] and was gathered
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
0622 'acaph {aw-saf'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 140; v
AV - together 51, gather 86, assemble 15, rereward 5, misc 51; 200
1) to gather, receive, remove, gather in
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to gather, collect
1a2) to gather (an individual into company of others)
1a3) to bring up the rear
1a4) to gather and take away, remove, withdraw
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to assemble, be gathered
1b2) (pass of Qal 1a2)
1b2a) to be gathered to one's fathers
1b2b) to be brought in or into (association with others)
1b3) (pass of Qal 1a4)
1b3a) to be taken away, removed, perish
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to gather (harvest)
1c2) to take in, receive into
1c3) rearguard, rearward (subst)
1d) (Pual) to be gathered
1e) (Hithpael) to gather oneself or themselves




to his people
Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05971 `am {am}
from 06004; TWOT - 1640a,1640e; n m
AV - people 1836, nation 17, people + 01121 4, folk 2, Ammi 1,
men 1, each 1; 1862
1) nation, people
1a) people, nation
1b) persons, members of one's people, compatriots, country-men
2) kinsman, kindred



Then the next text says "AND his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;"

The burial takes place after he was gathered to his fathers. And his fathers were no where near where he was buried. The text does not say that he went to the same destination as his fathers. It specifically says he was gathered to his fathers.

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reddogs

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Should I rewrite what PaleHorse or the scriptures have already written better than anything I could write..... I know the bee in the bonnet stings, but forgive the messenger and read the content so you can receive the understanding and blessing from Gods word..

Your Brother in Christ
Red
 
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Eila

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He died and went to his grave like his fathers before him, to dust as the scriptures teaches.....

I understand that is what you believe. The scripture mentions that he was gathered to his people and then was buried. Here are some other quotes of people dying and being gathered to their people.

Genesis 25 "17And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people."

Genesis 35 " And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him."

Genesis 49 " And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.."

Numbers 20 "23And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in mount Hor, by the coast of the land of Edom, saying, 24Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah.
25Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto mount Hor:
26And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there."

Deuteronomy 32 "48And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
49Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
50And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:"



Then we find Jesus talking about Abraham in Luke 16

"19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’



Jesus said when Lazarus died he was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Both Lazarus and the rich man were consciuos after death and Abraham was there.
 
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tulc

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Should I rewrite what PaleHorse or the scriptures have already written better than anything I could write.....
That's not the problem, it's not saying who it came from that annoys. :)

I know the bee in the bonnet stings, but forgive the messenger and read the content so you can receive the understanding and blessing from Gods word..
Ahhh! As for the issues, I settled them a long time ago with prayer and study. But thank you. :)
tulc(needs a cup of coffee) ;)
 
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Eila

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Already covered that, if everyone is in the grave you go to were they are, otherwise you have change from mortal to be immortal and you've already agreed we cant do that......

I'm not sure you are understanding me. The body is not immortal. Your body is not what lives beyond the grave. We have not yet received the redemption of our bodies.

The spirit is not the body. The spirit in a man is what is immortal. No person makes themself immortal for the Bible says that God forms the spirit in a man.

Romans 8 says " 16The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God."

We have a spirit according to Romans 8 as well as Hebrews 4:

"12For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart."
 
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reddogs

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The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life, it is within us while we are alive. So the Holy Spirit can communicate with the "spirit" within us while we are alive. The "spirit" does not have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" from God which gives us the power of life and when we die it goes back to him and nothing more.

You need to see the flaw in your thinking on this, if the spirit is alive after our death then what do we need the second coming for, we can just go in spirit and stay in heaven, there is NO NEED FOR SALVATION. You basically do away with Christ and his tremedous sacrifice. This negates the whole plan of salvation since the fall at the Garden of Eden and makes Christ's crucifixion a excercize in futility as we are already in heaven. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you and carefully read the scriptures plainly as you are going down a slippery road with no gain except to defend some misguided creed or dogma.......
 
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Oye11

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I'm not sure you are understanding me. The body is not immortal. Your body is not what lives beyond the grave. We have not yet received the redemption of our bodies.

The spirit is not the body. The spirit in a man is what is immortal. No person makes themself immortal for the Bible says that God forms the spirit in a man.

Romans 8 says " 16The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God."

We have a spirit according to Romans 8 as well as Hebrews 4:

"12For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart."

Absolutely. Consider this verse.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10-28

If it is true as an earlier poster said, that the soul dies with the body then why make a distinction here between what man can do and what God can do? And I will forego a Greek study of the word translated "destroy" as that takes us to a forbidden topic...
 
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Eila

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The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life, it is within us while we are alive. So the Holy Spirit can communicate with the "spirit" within us while we are alive. The "spirit" does not have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" from God which gives us the power of life and when we die it goes back to him and nothing more.

You need to see the flaw in your thinking on this, if the spirit is alive after our death then what do we need the second coming for, we can just go in spirit and stay in heaven, there is NO NEED FOR SALVATION. You basically do away with Christ and his tremedous sacrifice. This negates the whole plan of salvation since the fall at the Garden of Eden and makes Christ's crucifixion a excercize in futility as we are already in heaven. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you and carefully read the scriptures plainly as you are going down a slippery road with no gain except to defend some misguided creed or dogma.......

How does the Holy Spirit communicate with your breath?

There is a need for salvation. Our spirit is dead until Christ makes it alive. The was no redemption before Jesus. People did not go to heaven when they died under the old covenant. He makes us alive when we come to Him. We are born again! Our bodies are not reborn as we are awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

Colossians 2 says "11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

2 Corinthians 5:17 says "17Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!"
 
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white dove

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One of the most deceptive doctrines of the Evil one is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This doctrine more than any other opens the door to spurious views regarding the afterlife, and it has permeated the religious world with its false promises and claims. Moreover, it offers promises of multiple choices that can be made in terms of one’s salvation and multiple chances in terms of qualifying for salvation. Spiritism, reincarnation and necromancy (the worship and consulting of the dead) are only possible in the light of this doctrine. The Word of God is very clear on this issue. None of these doctrines and practices were to be tolerated by the people of God because they were all rooted in a false perception of death.

Most religions in the world today teach that death is the transition of one state of consciousness to another state of consciousness. They propose that physical man is subject to death, but that the "soul" continues to live, and is indeed immortal. According to this doctrine, the soul is a separate entity, and resides in the body of the living.


Thank you for bringing this up. For a long time, I have not believed in a "transitional" state after one dies. You are right, it does open up the doors to believing in altered states of spiritual consciousness, which can lead to other forms of spirituality. I do not believe the afterlife takes place until all have been judged and we either reside spiritually with the Lord or separated from Him. I have had many people close to me pass away and have been told (even by Christians) that they (like my grandparents) now watch over me as my angels. That is a nice thought, but I do not believe in it at this time.


reddogs said:
To make matters even more confusing, most Christian denominations believe that this dichotomy is to be found only in humans, and that animals do not have souls.
The text of Genesis 2:7 clearly states that God breathed into the formed man the "breath of life" and man became a living soul. He did not receive a living soul; he became one. The New King James Bible states that "man became a living being". Of the many references to soul and spirit in the Bible, never once is either the soul or the Spirit declared to be immortal, imperishable or eternal. Indeed only God has immortality (1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16).

...
According to the Scriptures, all living creatures received life in the same way from God, and are subject to the same fate.

I'm glad that you address this. I don't know of many Christians who believe that animals have souls. That may not even be your point! :sorry:

However, that being said, the last statement I quoted you on stumps me. Same fate, as in judgment? Animals cannot sin, as their minds are not viewed as "complex" as ours -having a conscious, for example- they are not subjected to that. Or did you mean, subject to death, as everything else living is? I'm completely confused on your point. I think I may have missed something.
 
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Oye11

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Thank you for bringing this up. For a long time, I have not believed in a "transitional" state after one dies. You are right, it does open up the doors to believing in altered states of spiritual consciousness, which can lead to other forms of spirituality. .

Likewise believing in a literal devil opens the door for increased psychosis in the mentally ill or may take undue focus away from God in others. Belief in a man who was also God may lead to the belief that other men were divine and pagan idol worship. The issue is not expediency or guilt by association, but what the scrptures teach, and they do resoundingly teach a conscious state after death which is a contingent (upon God) immortality, not the pagan concept of a soul immortal in and of itself. So the thread title itself is in a way a straw man...:)

Verses that teach consciousness after death are all over the thread so there is not point in listing them out again here.
 
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reddogs

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You did not address the question:

"if the spirit is alive after our death then what do we need the second coming for, we can just go in spirit and stay in heaven, there is NO NEED FOR SALVATION. You basically do away with Christ and his tremedous sacrifice. This negates the whole plan of salvation since the fall at the Garden of Eden and makes Christ's crucifixion a excercize in futility as we are already in heaven."
 
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Eila

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You did not address the question:

"if the spirit is alive after our death then what do we need the second coming for, we can just go in spirit and stay in heaven, there is NO NEED FOR SALVATION. You basically do away with Christ and his tremedous sacrifice. This negates the whole plan of salvation since the fall at the Garden of Eden and makes Christ's crucifixion a excercize in futility as we are already in heaven."

Salvation doesn't happen at the second coming. 2 Corinthians 6 says "1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. 2 For He says:

“ In an acceptable time I have heard you,
And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

At the second coming we receive our glorified bodies. We were created as physical and spiritual creatures made in the image of God. Redemption is not complete until we receive our glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15 talks about our need for glorified bodies:

"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
 
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reddogs

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Yes, they are subject to death and go back to dust.
Genesis 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;... as they also have the life giving 'breath of life' from God. . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 7:15
 
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Oye11

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Yes, they are subject to death and go back to dust.
Genesis 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;... as they also have the life giving 'breath of life' from God. . . wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 7:15

One of the trademarks of this theology is to attempt to prove doctrines from early books and often from poety in Job, Psalms, and Eccelsiastes :doh:rather than from the brighter N.T. revelations directly concerned with life after death. The soul sleep crowd attempts reconciliation by giving precedence to the former over the latter but the opposite should be our method...
 
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Harry3142

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"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (The Gospel According to St. Luke 12:4-5,NIV)

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (I Peter 3:18-20a,NIV)
 
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reddogs

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That is salvation by works not faith, that says we save ourselves, and the second coming is not needed. But you forget, when man chooses salvation he has freewill and can turn away from God, so this "salvation" you are talking about is a one were we make our own "salvation" without God through our own works and is a false one not based on faith.
 
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Eila

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That is salvation by works not faith, that says we save ourselves, and the second coming is not needed. But you forget, when man chooses salvation he has freewill and can turn away from God, so this "salvation" you are talking about is a one were we make our own "salvation" without God through our own works and is a false one not based on faith.

I'm not sure you understand the alternative viewpoint that has been expressed here. When the spirit is reborn it is the work of God, not anything we do. Man cannot make their spirit alive unto Christ.

Maybe you are coming from the perspective that we are not saved until the second coming and anyone who believes they are saved now must keep it up with good works???? I'm not understanding where you are coming from.
 
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