Noah's Flood

[RedAndy]

I am not a expert here, but it seems to me that water maintains it temperature much better than air or land does... so if the world were covered with water, the polar caps would melt, and what would cause them to refreeze after the flood? According to the flood account, the entire episode lasts over a year. A year in a barge with every animal in the world doing what animals do best!!!

What about the jet stream... where does it go with no mountains to redirect it?

The science of the episode is much too complicated to try and justify it as a literal acount, in my biased opinion.

That's before you get onto the issue of where all the water came from. And where it went. And how a wooden boat of such a size could be built. Or survive the rough seas. And how the animals could be fed. And groomed. And exercised. And how all the "kinds" could fit on a 450-foot Ark. And why there is no geological evidence for a flood. And so on.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

The Bible states, every word is through the breath of God. The Bible also states that to add or take away a single word of the Bible would corrupt it. (parents have told me both in past, ill look up specific verses).

ACK! It is impossible for the bible to speak about the bible. Every piece of scripture was written separately, and the author had no clue it would become part of "The Bible." Revelation (the source of the latter verse) was speaking about the book of Revelation when it says not to change even a single word.

 

[pyro214]

I am not a expert here, but it seems to me that water maintains it temperature much better than air or land does... so if the world were covered with water, the polar caps would melt, and what would cause them to refreeze after the flood? According to the flood account, the entire episode lasts over a year. A year in a barge with every animal in the world doing what animals do best!!!

i thought it was somthing like 40 days?
whats the verse that discribes the timeline :S

What about the jet stream... where does it go with no mountains to redirect it?

the whole event was a miracle in the first place, why would somthing as small as the direction of the boat not be aswell?

The science of the episode is much too complicated to try and justify it as a literal acount, in my biased opinion.

i wont say your opinion is wrong, i feel it is interpitable to some more then a non-literal degree.

 

[pyro214]

ACK! It is impossible for the bible to speak about the bible. Every piece of scripture was written separately, and the author had no clue it would become part of "The Bible." Revelation (the source of the latter verse) was speaking about the book of Revelation when it says not to change even a single word.

this is one of the the facts that supports the Bible being so significant. Parts of the Bible do speak and confim eachother. This is because God told the people what to write, he knew what would be written in the future...and what had been written in the past. The author may not of know what would happen to his peice of writting but God definatly did, and he is the true author.

 

[pyro214]

That's before you get onto the issue of where all the water came from.

Not from Earth? (miracle)

And where it went.

miracle

And how a wooden boat of such a size could be built.

he lived for over half a thousand years....its possible. Could we not build a boat like that today?

Or survive the rough seas.

if there were any..

And how the animals could be fed.

if God can turn 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough food for thouands, i think he can take care of for some animals.

And groomed. And exercised.

no need if its only 40 days

And how all the "kinds" could fit on a 450-foot Ark.

more then one floor

And why there is no geological evidence for a flood. And so on.

did the flood cover the "whole world" or the whole "known world"?

good points redandy, ill take note of them and look into it over the summer. Thesse are comments that come to my mind when i read what you posted. I know you hate to see the world "miracle" or "God did it" instead of a scientifical answer, but from a religious point of view it makes sense. Maybe over the summer ill find some scientific explanations for you

 

[KCDAD]

i thought it was somthing like 40 days?
whats the verse that discribes the timeline :S


the whole event was a miracle in the first place, why would somthing as small as the direction of the boat not be aswell?


i wont say your opinion is wrong, i feel it is interpitable to some more then a non-literal degree.

Chapter7 verse 17:40 days
verse 24: 150 days
Chapter8 verse: 4: Seventeenth day, seventh month
verse5: til 10th month
verse6: after 40 days
verse10: 7 days
verse12: 7 more days
verse13: 1st day 1st month
verse14: 2nd month 27th day They finally leave the Ark.

 

[Siderite]

It appears that the conclusion of this debate would be how you perceive the Biblical Flood - indeed your point of reference. If you perceive it as a miracle, as pyro does, then there is no scientific discussion about it. It is a miracle - no debate. Evidence, or a lack thereof does not prove or disprove the occurrence.

If you preceive the flood to have been a miracle but having left physical pointers of a global flood then a greater discussion involving observations and direct data can be had.

For those people for are atheists - their reference point will be purely observational and data orientated, thus their conclusion will be no flood.

Almost every discussion on this forum is all about your point of reference.

 

[Skaloop]

he lived for over half a thousand years....its possible. Could we not build a boat like that today?

No, we couldn't. Not out of wood. Not even modern day, highly educated, highly trained professional engineers could design a functional wooden ship large enough to do the task. There are limits on how big a wooden ship can be, because wood cannot withstand the large forces inherent in a large ship.

 

[RedAndy]

Not from Earth? (miracle)

Indeed, it could all have been a miracle or a series of miracles. The only problem with this is that we can say that anything happened and attribute it to miracles. That kind of claim is no more substantiated than Last Thursdayism.

miracle

See above.

he lived for over half a thousand years....its possible. Could we not build a boat like that today?

Nope. To my knowledge, the longest wooden boat that has ever been built was 300 feet long - only two-thirds of the length the Ark was alleged to be. And that boat required metal supports to stop it from being ripped apart in the water (technology that would not have been available in Noah's time.) Furthermore, nobody attempted to sail that boat on seas as rough as a global flood would have caused.

if there were any..

If there was no land to break up the ocean currents, the seas would have been almost unimaginably rough (just look at the Southern Ocean today to see what happens without land).

if God can turn 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough food for thouands, i think he can take care of for some animals.

AKA....miracle? See my comment above.

no need if its only 40 days

I must admit I am not an expert on the Scriptural basis for the flood, although I seem to recall that although the rains of the flood lasted for 40 days, the flood as a whole (including recession) lasted for around a year.

more then one floor

Requiring more wood, and making the boat even more unstable.

did the flood cover the "whole world" or the whole "known world"?

A local rather than a global flood would indeed account for the lack of geological evidence (as well as a lack of consistency with the records of other civilisations), but there are problems (including the ones listed above) that would undermine either a local or a global flood model.

good points redandy, ill take note of them and look into it over the summer.

Thanks. It's nice to debate with a YECist who is willing to learn about their beliefs and have a half-decent debate about them!

Thesse are comments that come to my mind when i read what you posted. I know you hate to see the world "miracle" or "God did it" instead of a scientifical answer, but from a religious point of view it makes sense.

Appealing to miracles is perfectly acceptable, as long as you understand that such an explanation cannot be accepted as scientific. Essentially, what it boils down to is that you can dispute the existence of miracles, but you can't dispute the existence of scientific evidence.

Maybe over the summer ill find some scientific explanations for you

I look forward to refuting them!

 

[KCDAD]

Chapter7 verse 17:40 days
verse 24: 150 days
Chapter8 verse: 4: Seventeenth day, seventh month
verse5: til 10th month
verse6: after 40 days
verse10: 7 days
verse12: 7 more days
verse13: 1st day 1st month
verse14: 2nd month 27th day They finally leave the Ark.

Even at the shortest possible calculation, the entire event lasted at least 12 months...

 

[pyro214]

Even at the shortest possible calculation, the entire event lasted at least 12 months...

kk, good to know and thanks for verses.

Also this whole idea of the "entire" world could have quiet a impact for people who like to think scintificly about it. Lets take things from the greatest end of the possible spectrum, the world known today, and bring it to the oppositite side.

For example, lets be unrealistic and pretend that the entire world was only known for 10 miles in each direction from were people lived at the time. The number of animals, landroms, etc... would then be very decreased.

Now lets consider somthing realistic, is it possible to have a situation somwhere between the world known then and the world known today where:
-the terrain was not high.
-and amount of animals is suitable for the size of the ark.
-geogical evidence would only need to support the given area.
-polar caps would not of been melted
-due to smaller amount of animals, a sufficient amount of food could of been provided.
-the amount of water in the world would be sufficient for the given area.

I think its possible, although were still left with the problem of how such a massive boat was made.

Even though i give this possibility it seems unlikley. The point of the flood was to kill 99% of humanity at the time (i think). So the area itself would have to be quiet large? Or maby there wernt that many people at the time.... who knows :S

 

[ebia]

If we are talking less than 40,000 years ago there were people spread as far away as Australia, and pretty much every distinct species of animal already existed.

If you are talking within the existance of the human species at all, virtually every existant animal species already existed.

Sorry, but having it local doesn't fly if you want it to wipe out every human and animal not on the ark.

 

[pyro214]

If we are talking less than 40,000 years ago there were people spread as far away as Australia, and pretty much every distinct species of animal already existed.

If you are talking within the existance of the human species at all, virtually every existant animal species already existed.

Sorry, but having it local doesn't fly if you want it to wipe out every human and animal not on the ark.

the "known" world is from one persons point of view. he would not know of other cultures. Today we know of all cultures because communitation is climaxing.

and how do you even know if people lived 40k years ago at all?
i have yet to see a dating method that is without flaw when surpassing 6-10k years....

 

[ebia]

the "known" world is from one persons point of view. he would not know of other cultures. Today we know of all cultures because communitation is climaxing.

Thats why I said:
Sorry, but having it local doesn't fly if you want it to wipe out every human and animal not on the ark.

and how do you even know if people lived 40k years ago at all?

There's evidence of them living about 80km north of here around 40k years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mungo

If you want to investigate how the site was dated I'll leave that up to you.

 

[pyro214]

Thats why I said:
Sorry, but having it local doesn't fly if you want it to wipe out every human and animal not on the ark.

missed that sorry,
hmm.....maybe only people in that area were in need of being wiped out. Although this makes the whole thing sound even more unrealistic...

There's evidence of them living about 80km north of here around 40k years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mungo

If you want to investigate how the site was dated I'll leave that up to you.

thanks for source, im assuming that they used ice dating...which i have nothing against for yet.

 

[azzy]

The flood,is also told in other religions,so it most likely was a local one,the story being changed over time,with each religion adding to it,to fit thier world view.

The Ark,symbolizes the Goddess,,Noah,the God,the Ark is the womb,and from the womb came the God,and all life on earth issued forth from her.

The water outside,was the chaos.

But,if God is who he claims to be,then he is able to do as he said,even if it cant be explained with science.

If you could explain everything God could,and has done with science,,then ,,he wouldnt be God,,but a mere scientist.

When scientist can create a living soul,or one solitary plant out of nothing,or when scientist can give me the formula for love,,,,and when they can prove what will happen to me after I die,,then,,,perhaps,,I will put all my trust and confidence in them,,,but not until then.

 

[pyro214]

The flood,is also told in other religions,so it most likely was a local one,the story being changed over time,with each religion adding to it,to fit thier world view.

The Ark,symbolizes the Goddess,,Noah,the God,the Ark is the womb,and from the womb came the God,and all life on earth issued forth from her.

The water outside,was the chaos.

But,if God is who he claims to be,then he is able to do as he said,even if it cant be explained with science.

If you could explain everything God could,and has done with science,,then ,,he wouldnt be God,,but a mere scientist.

When scientist can create a living soul,or one solitary plant out of nothing,or when scientist can give me the formula for love,,,,and when they can prove what will happen to me after I die,,then,,,perhaps,,I will put all my trust and confidence in them,,,but not until then.

first time ive read someones non-literal interpitation of it...thanks alot

the reason ive never considered non-literal is because the boat is given measurements.... measurments are literal?

 

[ebia]

The measurements are literal measurements in the context of a story, just as (say) the height of the Trojan Horse would be in that story, or the amount of money in the parable of the talents is.

 

[pyro214]

The measurements are literal measurements in the context of a story, just as (say) the height of the Trojan Horse would be in that story, or the amount of money in the parable of the talents is.

why write such a story if its meaning really is nothing when u look at it non-literally?
the way it went was there was too many sinful people, so he killed them all with a flood, while sparing the animals. Makes sense?

 

[ebia]

why write such a story if its meaning really is nothing when u look at it non-literally?
the way it went was there was too many sinful people, so he killed them all with a flood, while sparing the animals. Makes sense?

All of the important meaning is there whether the story is literal or not:

God is very, very powerful.
People can be very, very, bad.
Some people do wish to follow God, and it is through them that God works his purposes.
God wishes to wash away sin (looks forward to baptism).
God makes and keeps his promises (the rainbow)
etc, etc.

What you can't get from it is stuff that God has no need to teach us because there is other ways for us to learn it, eg modernist-history, usable instructions for building barges, zoology, etc