Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

Hello Boxemaker,

There are no controdiction there. If God were a man than there would be, but He is not man and not bound by our limitations.

The God of the Bible is One God and yet He is Three. This too makes no sense to many people, yet it is taught in Scripture and foundational to our faith.

Jesus Christ is wholly mand and He is also Wholly God, second person of the Holy Trinity. THis too is beyond our understanding.

The Scriptures teach that man is a morally responsable creature and all that he does he does willingly. The Scriptures also teach that man is fallen in Adam, he is a slave to sin, is concieved iniquity and is born speaking lies.

The Scripture Call man to follow God and tell us that own his own he can not do so. The Scriptures also tell us that God has determined the End from the Beginning and that He has Predestined who will be saved.

All of these things are true. The Scriptures teach all these things and they are not contradictioins. The Scriptures are not a buffet line were we can walk down the counter and pick and choose what we like and want and leave the parts we don't like. It is a package deal.

I can try to work with you on these things if you like. I have posted on this issue before and if you want to discuss these issues I may point to some of these previous posts now and then.

I wish you well,
Kenith

God set the end from the beginning. I have been studying the scripture for a while. While no theologin, I don't see any place where it says God predestined who would be saved and who would not. John 3:16 is the most frequently quoted verse in the Bible. It is quoted for God's love, it is quote as a message of salvation, it is quoted to get people interested in hearing more about the Bible. The verse says, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Whoever believes. This is the whole argument between Calvinism and the open view. In Calvinism, whoever believes was predestined to do so and, essentially, has no choice in the matter. In the open view, man, as a morally free agent, must accept God's offered salvation.

It becomes an interesting argument as both positions are easily and convencingly supported from the Bible. The question then becomes, is either view required for salvation? The answer to that would ahve to be no.

I believe man must accept Jesus of his own free will. At that point, my heart is changed and I live for Jesus and Jesus lives through me. God is still totally sovereign and can influance and direct the world as He sees fit. Believing God allows us to choose does not conflict with God's will as it is Gods will that we choose. It helps explain why the lake of fire awaits those who don't.

You hold that God must first cahnge our heart before we can accept Jesus as our saviour. Asside from how one comes to believe, there is nothing different in the positions after one comes to believe.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

God set the end from the beginning. I have been studying the scripture for a while. While no theologin, I don't see any place where it says God predestined who would be saved and who would not. John 3:16 is the most frequently quoted verse in the Bible. It is quoted for God's love, it is quote as a message of salvation, it is quoted to get people interested in hearing more about the Bible. The verse says, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Whoever believes. This is the whole argument between Calvinism and the open view. In Calvinism, whoever believes was predestined to do so and, essentially, has no choice in the matter. In the open view, man, as a morally free agent, must accept God's offered salvation.

It becomes an interesting argument as both positions are easily and convencingly supported from the Bible. The question then becomes, is either view required for salvation? The answer to that would ahve to be no.

I believe man must accept Jesus of his own free will. At that point, my heart is changed and I live for Jesus and Jesus lives through me. God is still totally sovereign and can influance and direct the world as He sees fit. Believing God allows us to choose does not conflict with God's will as it is Gods will that we choose. It helps explain why the lake of fire awaits those who don't.

You hold that God must first cahnge our heart before we can accept Jesus as our saviour. Asside from how one comes to believe, there is nothing different in the positions after one comes to believe.

Hello Boxmaker,

I agree that one need not be a Calvinist nor a non-Calvinist in order to be saved. I have studied the Scriptures for a long time and I read a lot of Church history. Our differences on this point are nothing new. There have been Christians on both sides of this discussions for millennia.

Like I said above, there are clearly verses in Scripture that call men to repent, man is a free moral agent and is responsable before GOd for all his choices.

There are also verses that speak of how man is a slave to sin and dead in those sins. They tell us thatman must be made alive inorder to believe. THere is, again, no contradiction. Man is not God.

I would invite you te read this short commentary on Romans 9 that was written a few years back. You will find them here: Romans 9 in the ESV or you can see the original on my blog: http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html

On the blog you have to scroll down just a little bit.

Read this and then I will be happy to continue the discussion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Boxmaker]

Hello Boxmaker,

I agree that one need not be a Calvinist nor a non-Calvinist in order to be saved. I have studied the Scriptures for a long time and I read a lot of Church history. Our differences on this point are nothing new. There have been Christians on both sides of this discussions for millennia.

Like I said above, there are clearly verses in Scripture that call men to repent, man is a free moral agent and is responsable before GOd for all his choices.

There are also verses that speak of how man is a slave to sin and dead in those sins. They tell us thatman must be made alive inorder to believe. THere is, again, no contradiction. Man is not God.

I would invite you te read this short commentary on Romans 9 that was written a few years back. You will find them here: Romans 9 in the ESV or you can see the original on my blog: http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html

On the blog you have to scroll down just a little bit.

Read this and then I will be happy to continue the discussion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

That was well written and compelling. I wonder, does that apply to all mankind or only to the people God requires as part of His "plan". (Don't miss-understand my putting plan in parenthasies. I do belive that God has a plan but plan is a rather inadiquate word for it.)

What I'm saying is, in the period of time since the Bible was written, there have billions of people who have lived and died. Of those, only a few are recorded in the Bible. Of all the people in the Bible, an even fewer number were key to God design. What of the rest of us? Not all of us are destined to greatness. Job went through some really rough times because he had great faith in God. What about the firends of Job? Were they any less "saved" (OT sotry so saved doesn't really apply as we understand the term)? Is the everyman subject to Gods will to the same degree as the leader? (I don't know if that question makes sense but I think it may be a place we can start working from).

 

[Boxmaker]

Okay, I read a little more (pick and choose, I admit it) and found this:

1. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL The objection may be raised that if God has foreordained the entire course of events in this world He must be the Author of Sin. To begin with, we readily admit that the existence of sin in a universe which is under the control of a God who is infinite in His wisdom, power, holiness, and justice, is an inscrutable mystery which we in our present state of knowledge cannot fully explain. As yet we only see through a glass darkly. Sin can never be explained on the grounds of logic or reason, for it is essentially illogical and unreasonable. The mere fact that sin exists has often been urged by atheists and skeptics as an argument not merely against Calvinism but against theism in general.

Para-phrased it says, "I don't know". That is a fair and reasonable answer. The Bible does not have an answer for everything. It has principles that can be applied to any situation but it does not have an answer for everything.

I can accept that dealing with evil in a predestined creation is one of those mysteries.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Okay, I read a little more (pick and choose, I admit it) and found this:


Para-phrased it says, "I don't know". That is a fair and reasonable answer. The Bible does not have an answer for everything. It has principles that can be applied to any situation but it does not have an answer for everything.

I can accept that dealing with evil in a predestined creation is one of those mysteries.

Hey Boxer,

Thanks again fory your reply to my post.

None of us have all understanding and we all mus bow before our holy and infinite God. He can do what we can not.

The Scriptures tell us that God did not cause sin (he is not its author), but it is clear that God did ordain (allow) that sin exist in this world.

The fact that Atheist agree that there is sin, is an argument for God. They prove that God exist because they KNOW that there is GOd and evil. In an atheistic worldview such concepts would be mere human convention and not the true reality of the world. Atheists know that God exist, but (as Paul says in Romans 1 The surpress the truth in unrighteousness.

Now back to predestination. Let's look at what Paul wrote in his epistle to the Ephesians:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:4-6)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:10-12)

Predestination is an unavoidable concept if we worship an infinite God. We do not worship a God bound by time; we worship the God who created time and is above time and transcends all of time at once. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega (He is the beginning and the end and all inbetween all at once). God is in eternity. Time was created like man and the world.

The God of the Bible is that Great of a God and greater still.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[heymikey80]

Quoted from the first paragraph of Boettner
I didn't even get past the first paragraph before I found things that appear as contridictions to me. There is one clause that says God ardained whatsoever (which seems to mean everything in this case) that comes to pass. This is followed by four clauses that point out God is did not ordain quite ordain everything but rather ordained that which is holy and merely established that which we would consider evil.

Hm? You quoted the statement, and I don't see Boettner's assertion that God didn't ordain everything.

Authorship is not ordination. Ever been to an ordination? Did the ordainer author all that results from an ordination? Does the ordainer get rights of authorship to every graduate of a university? Does the Pope get rights of authorship to Martin Luther's "Babylonian Captivity"?

Who becomes responsible in an ordination? The ordainer? Or the recipient of the ordination?

God established responsibility through ordination. But God doesn't become the author of what the ordained intend.

 

[heymikey80]

In one of the links, I forget which one, sorry, it pointed out that predestination is required because if we were to have free will, excercising that free will to accept salvation would be a work. Since salvation is through faith alone, any work on our part is not allowed therefore, not possible.

This verse is from Revelations 3:
To the Church in Laodicea

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Verse 20 is the one that I am interested in at the moment. Jesus is speaking these words. He says He stands at the door and knocks. Anybody who hears and opens the door is saved. The verse says that we need to respond to what God initiates. Responding t God is not a work in the meaning that is generally used by the Bible. Typically, works in the Bible refers to helping and caring for those who need it. Telling God that we need Him, that we accept His offer of salvation is not a work, it is a statement of faith.

Your thoughts?

It's a work if you can exchange it for a reward.

And ... the letter actually doesn't say anybody who hears and opens the door is saved. It says something rather different.

And it's being said not to evangelize those who haven't heard the gospel, it's being said to members of Christ's Church; in fact, a Church with a lampstand in heaven. How can that be a description of conversion, if the Church is already present with Christ in heaven?

But if you'd like a different verse,
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind [spirit] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jn 3:5-8

 

[bradfordl]

Typical engineer. Percieve all things thru the currently accepted paradigm regardless of the incongruities because at least the math works most of the time. One thing you miss is that whatever created the complexity of a single grain of salt is an intellect and power far and away superior to even the best human mind. Not just the physical properties, but the ability to cause it to exist from moment to moment in time, with so many forces in precipitous balance. And when you raise your eyes from perusing it on the dinner table and consider the astounding complexity of just your dining room, it just scares you back into some stodgy systematic and hilariously arrogant explanation of all things. It comforts you.

God is unimpressed, and needs not give you an answer. But He did anyway. You have a hard time wrapping your mind around it, as we all do, but that's the way He intends it to be...

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And here's the answer to your problem with the existence of evil in a creation under the absolute control of Almighty God...

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Boxmaker]

Hm? You quoted the statement, and I don't see Boettner's assertion that God didn't ordain everything.

Authorship is not ordination. Ever been to an ordination? Did the ordainer author all that results from an ordination? Does the ordainer get rights of authorship to every graduate of a university? Does the Pope get rights of authorship to Martin Luther's "Babylonian Captivity"?

Who becomes responsible in an ordination? The ordainer? Or the recipient of the ordination?

God established responsibility through ordination. But God doesn't become the author of what the ordained intend.

This argument kind of goes in circles. It sounds to me like you are saying God created everything except that which He didn't create. That which He didn't create He just allowed somebody else to create.

or·dain –verb (used with object)
1.
to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon.

2.
to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.: to ordain a new type of government.

3.
to decree; give orders for: He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted.

4.
(of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine: Fate had ordained the meeting.
–verb (used without object)
5.
to order or command: Thus do the gods ordain.

6.
to select for or appoint to an office.

7.
to invest someone with sacerdotal functions.


Also, the way use ordination in your example is not the same meaning as used in relation to Gods creation. The Cardinal ordains the Priest meaning the Cardinal grants the Priest authority within the Catholic Church to perform the duties of a priest. The Cardinal has created nothing new. It is meaning one.

When saying God ordained something we are using the 4th meaning or maybe the 5th. It is a bad comparison.

 

[Boxmaker]

It's a work if you can exchange it for a reward.

And ... the letter actually doesn't say anybody who hears and opens the door is saved. It says something rather different.

And it's being said not to evangelize those who haven't heard the gospel, it's being said to members of Christ's Church; in fact, a Church with a lampstand in heaven. How can that be a description of conversion, if the Church is already present with Christ in heaven?

The letter is written to a church who call themselvs believers and are not. Remember Mathew 25, not everybody who says and does things in the name of Christ is in Christ. This church is like that and Jesus is pointing out to them that He is still there for them if they will but open their hearts to Him. It is a statement of evangilism. The first part of the passage points out the problem and then the solution is presented.

But if you'd like a different verse,
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind [spirit] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jn 3:5-8

I miss your point. It is saying that unless you are reborn of the spirit you cannot enter heaven. That is very true and I am in full agreement.

 

[Boxmaker]

Typical engineer. Percieve all things thru the currently accepted paradigm regardless of the incongruities because at least the math works most of the time. One thing you miss is that whatever created the complexity of a single grain of salt is an intellect and power far and away superior to even the best human mind. Not just the physical properties, but the ability to cause it to exist from moment to moment in time, with so many forces in precipitous balance. And when you raise your eyes from perusing it on the dinner table and consider the astounding complexity of just your dining room, it just scares you back into some stodgy systematic and hilariously arrogant explanation of all things. It comforts you.

God is unimpressed, and needs not give you an answer. But He did anyway. You have a hard time wrapping your mind around it, as we all do, but that's the way He intends it to be...

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And here's the answer to your problem with the existence of evil in a creation under the absolute control of Almighty God...

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Engineers are good people! I was created in Gods image and God gave me a technical mind. But you are right. All of us must be careful not make God over in our own image.

 

[GodsElect]

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

You and I were born in sin. We are by NATURE children of WRATH! I dont care how techincal your mind is. All you are showing is that you are using the technicalities of your thoughts in trying to perceive what you think is truth and twisting God's word with your "technical mind"! Until God gives you a new nature to understand, and makes you alive, my friend, you are dead and still carry the rags of your old nature and hold them dearly.

Calvinsts (reformers) say- GOD'S WILL

You say- MAN'S WILL

Calvinists say- The Book of life has been written and cannot be changed, added to or taken away of any man who is in the book.

You say- The Book of life is still being written according to the will of man who WILLS himself into the book.


Who will be judged???

 

[Reformationist]

Boxmaker, come on. You wanted to know what the Reformed (Calvinistic) position on predestination was, so what do we do? Continually offer a resource for you to learn it (incidentally, a book called The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination). You want me to evangelize to you, you say, so what do I do? I point you to a far better source, and instead you reject it. And your reasoning is that what I'm pointing you to is "extra-Biblical." Well, I'm extra-Biblical, too, you know. If you wanted me to do nothing but throw Scriptures at you, then you could go read the Bible for yourself. If you wanted me to do nothing but explain these Scriptures to you, so that you grasp the Reformed understanding of predestination, then you could go get someone else's explanations--like, oh, I dunno, a guy who wrote a book on it? I haven't written a book on it. I haven't studied as long Boettner had. So my solution for your questions is to get past the first paragraph or however much you read of it, and then continue reading the book. You might as well have judged the book by its cover. (You stopped reading? Why would you stop reading? Is that really the best way to gather the book's whole scope? I think you know it's not.)

LOL! Great post Neal, as always.

Those who truly desire to understand the doctrines of grace do not exhibit the attitude of the OP. We can all recognize the spurious nature of the questions being asked.

God bless

 

[GodsElect]

Romans 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

What does this mean Boxmaker???

I will tell you that you may understand what Calvinists through Gods word believe.

"OF HIM": All things were created by HIM and by His providence and sovereignty He gives and provides ALL things even our faith and trust in Him. ALL OF HIM.

"THROUGH HIM": All things come from Him, THROUGH Him and ALL things work THROUGH HIM even our very exsistance, thought, actions and act of faith and obedience. ALL THROUGH HIM.

"TO HIM": All things work according to His sovereign will TO HIM. To Glorify HIM. To let it be shown TO HIM that His will be done in his creation. For His sovereign purposes. ALL TO HIM.

However it does not say...... Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, as long as man's free will would accept it.

We are OF HIM in creation. We act because OF HIM. We think because OF HIM. Our belief in Christ comes FROM HIM. We come to Him THROUGH HIM the Holy Spirit. All things work THROUGH HIM. And His providencial work on earth is being DONE THROUGH HIM. And TO HIM for ALL the glory be to forever! Sorry if this hurts your free will technical mind but, OF HIM, THROUGH HIM and TO HIM is why we are saved and even believe in Him and His will IS being done without the help or cooperation of man's free will.

 

[Boxmaker]

Romans 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

What does this mean Boxmaker???

I will tell you that you may understand what Calvinists through Gods word believe.

"OF HIM": All things were created by HIM and by His providence and sovereignty He gives and provides ALL things even our faith and trust in Him. ALL OF HIM.

"THROUGH HIM": All things come from Him, THROUGH Him and ALL things work THROUGH HIM even our very exsistance, thought, actions and act of faith and obedience. ALL THROUGH HIM.

"TO HIM": All things work according to His sovereign will TO HIM. To Glorify HIM. To let it be shown TO HIM that His will be done in his creation. For His sovereign purposes. ALL TO HIM.

However it does not say...... Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, as long as man's free will would accept it.

We are OF HIM in creation. We act because OF HIM. We think because OF HIM. Our belief in Christ comes FROM HIM. We come to Him THROUGH HIM the Holy Spirit. All things work THROUGH HIM. And His providencial work on earth is being DONE THROUGH HIM. And TO HIM for ALL the glory be to forever! Sorry if this hurts your free will technical mind but, OF HIM, THROUGH HIM and TO HIM is why we are saved and even believe in Him and His will IS being done without the help or cooperation of man's free will.

No, my skin is much thicker than that. I find that a thick skin is required when having conversations with Christians. In this short thread I have been called a liar, a dog, a swine and not worth the time. A thick skin keeps these conversations going.

Romans 11:36 means God is control. God is in control. I think that you infure much from that verse that is really not there.

 

[Boxmaker]

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

You and I were born in sin. We are by NATURE children of WRATH! I dont care how techincal your mind is. All you are showing is that you are using the technicalities of your thoughts in trying to perceive what you think is truth and twisting God's word with your "technical mind"! Until God gives you a new nature to understand, and makes you alive, my friend, you are dead and still carry the rags of your old nature and hold them dearly.

Calvinsts (reformers) say- GOD'S WILL

You say- MAN'S WILL

Calvinists say- The Book of life has been written and cannot be changed, added to or taken away of any man who is in the book.

You say- The Book of life is still being written according to the will of man who WILLS himself into the book.


Who will be judged???

This is an interesting post. You accuse me of being unsaved and don't even know me. I find that interesting because instead of sharing a message of hope with me, you judge me. I thought God had reserved judgement for Himself.

Here is an honest question for you. If God is in charge of everything having to do with our faith, why do Calvinists evangalize? Remember Saul? He had a direct intercession from God on the way to Demascus so God obviously doesn't need us to do His work. Nothing we can say or do has any effect on another persons faith because God must change their hearts and grant them faith. So why do Calvinists evangalize.

I do not say mans will dominates Gods will. I say Jesus stands at the door of your heart and knocks. Men have a choice, accept Jesus or reject Jesus. It is much more consistant with the New Testament. God knows what our choices will be because He knows us so well, but He does not interfere with those choices. Why would you want the love of somebody you made love you.

 

[Boxmaker]

LOL! Great post Neal, as always.

Those who truly desire to understand the doctrines of grace do not exhibit the attitude of the OP. We can all recognize the spurious nature of the questions being asked.

God bless

Yes you can. And you are ill equiped to deal with it. I can defend my position from the Bible. I can point to verses, keep them in context, and have a discussion. I can give a reason for the hope that lies within me.

From you I get refered to other books. It does not seem that you can't defend your own faith nor offer a reason for the hope that lies within you.

So far, Cajun Huguenot has been the most helpful and compeling person on the thread. I have learned some very interesting things from him.

 

[nill]

Boxmaker said:
"From you I get refered to other books. It does not seem that you can't defend your own faith nor offer a reason for the hope that lies within you."


...does not seem... that I can't defend my faith... which... meeeans... I can! I knew we could agree on something!

Regarding the rest of what you've said, I really hope you're joking, but something tells me you're either not and really don't have a clue, or you're being obstinately ignorant on purpose, which would be a serious fault on your part. You seem to have an aversion to reading books, for some reason.

I tell you by which source I had the doctrine explained to me--the doctrine which you apparently desire to understand--and when I give you a direct link to the exact same source, you refuse to accept it. YES, it requires reading a book. Is that so hard?

For goodness' sake. I'm not going to say it for a seventh time. Go read. If it makes me look like a weakling who can't defend his faith in your eyes, fine, I don't care. Just go do some actual study for yourself on the topic.

 

[bradfordl]

Here is an honest question for you. If God is in charge of everything having to do with our faith, why do Calvinists evangalize? Remember Saul? He had a direct intercession from God on the way to Demascus so God obviously doesn't need us to do His work. Nothing we can say or do has any effect on another persons faith because God must change their hearts and grant them faith. So why do Calvinists evangalize.

I can't speak for others, but the motivation for this calvinist to evangelize is obedience, my Redeemer told me to do it. The results are immaterial to me; I have no control over them. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. Which is a great relief to me; I need not worry about how winsome is the content or delivery of any effort on my part, but rather I can concentrate on the biblical accuracy of it. If the ears of the hearer are opened or closed is a matter for which the Lord takes all responsibility, and recieves all the glory.

So I neither have to wrestle with the temptation to glorify myself if my words are heard, nor to blame myself if they are not. Maybe that's one reason that those who by the grace of God have been made willing to accept His absolute sovereignty tend to concentrate more on theological accuracy than those who strive to retain for themselves some measure of control over their salvation (and that of others). We don't have to pretty, just consistent.

BTW- There are no "good" people except One. But there are plenty of engineers I like, they are always at least interesting, if a little "boxy" in their thinking. Pun intended.

 

[heymikey80]

This argument kind of goes in circles. It sounds to me like you are saying God created everything except that which He didn't create. That which He didn't create He just allowed somebody else to create.

It goes in circles only when you don't separate intents, authority, and ... really, everything that the Enlightenment chopped off of human experience. Humanity is more than phenomena. It's also motivation. Good and evil are not attributes of events. They are purposes of the heart. That's why good actions -- charity, helping -- can be considered evil, given evil purposes.

As a result, "creating" and "ordaining" are two different things. Responsibility is different in creating or ordaining. Creating is a form of authorship -- an action God actually reserves to Himself.

The only way God would have complete responsibility is for His monergistic actions made for His purposes. Otherwise He ordains. That means He confers some of His authority on a derivative.

Ordination actually links all these definitions together, it's just separating into different denotations as language moves through time. But these are not separate meanings. They're related meanings.

Ordination has the ultimate cause or power as God, Who commands and judges the purposes and actions of His subjects rightly and sentences them on this basis, but accomplishes what He ordains through them. They are "means", or "secondary causes."

Authorship has the total responsibility as God, Who actually brings such things to pass through His purpose and His power, alone.