Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Pr 16:33
​

I'll await you to check into the context of a verse.

O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them.
Ps 139:1-16

​

The Psalms are such a wonderful collection of prayers and worship!

 

[heymikey80]

The Psalms are such a wonderful collection of prayers and worship!

Yes, if we accept them as the truth we can agree they're truthful collections of worship -- rightly attributing to God the value He deserves.

There is no statement in the Bible that states God knows everything you or I will do all the time.

Actually, this statement in the Bible does say God knows you in all your ways.

O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
​

And your entire life is known to God

Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them.
​

Nor is there any statement in the Bible that says God does not know what will happen in the future.

Note the subjunctive sense in this passage. These are things that you haven't done yet.

Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
​

All the Bible claims is what God will do at a future time. That is all!

Then God does some strange things, making people not repent.

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 8:20-21
​

 

[Boxmaker]

Yes, if we accept them as the truth we can agree they're truthful collections of worship -- rightly attributing to God the value He deserves.

Actually, this statement in the Bible does say God knows you in all your ways.

O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
​

And your entire life is known to God

Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them.
​

Note the subjunctive sense in this passage. These are things that you haven't done yet.

Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.
​

Then God does some strange things, making people not repent.

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 8:20-21
​

Nice. Well done! You proved my statement wrong. Can you do as well with the New Testament?

 

[heymikey80]

Nice. Well done! You proved my statement wrong. Can you do as well with the New Testament?

We're talking about the same God in the Old Testament and the New, right? How would God lose knowledge transitioning from OT to NT?

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. Rom 10:12
​

And putting them together ...

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Col 1:15-20
​

It can be demonstrated that the early Christians held the same view of God.

And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all ..." Ac 1:24
​

 

[mlqurgw]

sov·er·eign
1.a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2.a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3.a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4.a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914. –adjective
5.belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6.having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7.supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8.greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9.being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10.efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.

There is nothing in the above definitions that says sovereign must control every detail or be controlled by them. It means the one in absolute charge. Again, my boss does not have to micro-manage everything I do to get the right outcome. Nor does God.

God does not have to react to man. Mans actions for good or evil, are within Gods creatioin. He has made provisions for those who believe and those whe don't.

Here is a question for you. It is Gods will that all men be saved. It is Gods sovereign will that all men be saved. (1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version) 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,) Why do so many turn away from God if His sovereign will wants them saved?

No it isn't His will that all men be saved. If it were they would be. Is His hand shortened that it cannot save? Does He lack the wisdom or power to save all men if He desired it? Verses 1-3 give us the context and the answer to what Paul intended in verse 4. God saves all sorts of men, rich and poor, strong and weak, high and low, Jew and Greek. God doesn't respect the status or station of people.
You haven't answered the verses I gave you. Why?

 

[GodsElect]

We, as true bible believing christians, who understand and fall on our faces at the Glory of the ALL knowing, Great Creator of ALL things, and who works ALL things according the council of His own will, when encountering people like Boxmaker, must even still, look to God's word for answers to handling those who just do not hear what the scriptures are teaching and have their own "ideas" of how to interpret scripture, we must...

Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

we will...

Matthew 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

Boxmaker, Do not give us YOUR interpretation of what the bible says. I have read your testamony and you are asking all loaded questions and do not even care what Calvinists think. You obviously need to study the word of God more. Ask that He may reveal to you the plain truth that is in His word. And NOT YOUR interpretation of what you THINK it says. You will not win any intellectual arguments on this topic of theology. Not with a Calvinist, True Lutheran, or any true reformed position. The thing of it is, you probably only have pieces of scripture to back up your arguments.(Mostly way out of context as I have read) While we have the WHOLE bible to make our calling and election sure.

 

[mlqurgw]

We, as true bible believing christians, who understand and fall on our faces at the Glory of the ALL knowing, Great Creator of ALL things, and who works ALL things according the council of His own will, when encountering people like Boxmaker, must even still, look to God's word for answers to handling those who just do not hear what the scriptures are teaching and have their own "ideas" of how to interpret scripture, we must...

Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

we will...

Matthew 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

Boxmaker, Do not give us YOUR interpretation of what the bible says. I have read your testamony and you are asking all loaded questions and do not even care what Calvinists think. You obviously need to study the word of God more. Ask that He may reveal to you the plain truth that is in His word. And NOT YOUR interpretation of what you THINK it says. You will not win any intellectual arguments on this topic of theology. Not with a Calvinist, True Lutheran, or any true reformed position. The thing of it is, you probably only have pieces of scripture to back up your arguments.(Mostly way out of context as I have read) While we have the WHOLE bible to make our calling and election sure.

2Thess. 2 comes to mind, 10-12 especially.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

So set us on the right path. What definitions should we (I) be using?

Had you been honestly seeking an answer to your question, you'd already have those definitions, and probably questions about them.

Having examined subsequent posts on this thread, i have to arrive at the opinion that you have not posted your "issues" with complete integredy.

If i am mistaken in that opinion, i suggest that you examine the second volume of Hodge's Systematic Theology for an accurate represenation of the terms as defined by Reformed and Non-Reformed Christians.

Forget the logical traps if you want to have a serious discussion, son. You don't think that i recognise the OP as question begging?

 

[Boxmaker]

While waiting for the kids to get up I read through some of the other threads. They lead me to ask a couple of questions.
What, exactly, is predestined?

Is predestination concerned only with accepting Jesus?

Is everything in life predestined?

 

[heymikey80]

While waiting for the kids to get up I read through some of the other threads. They lead me to ask a couple of questions.
What, exactly, is predestined?

Is predestination concerned only with accepting Jesus?

Is everything in life predestined?

Predestination is a concept developed from statements in Scripture. It's full terminology is "Predestination to Eternal Life".

Predestination is the concept (not the cause) that God makes decisions about changing people -- their thoughts, desires, hearts, actions, and indeed their entire lives -- long before they are ever born; and then does so. It's normally introduced with Romans 8:28-39 and Ep 1:4ff.

Predestination is not solely concerned with accepting Jesus, but it is centrally concerned with accepting Jesus.

In most versions of Reformed thought Predestination (to life) is a subset of predestination in all its senses, or it's sometimes simply called by a different name: foreordination. In foreordination God does determine everything which comes to pass. But God predestines people to salvation by specific choices He makes. These choices have attributes -- which God describes in Scripture -- that other foreordained events do not. People are predestined not out of what they've done or what they desire (cf. Rom 9).

Predestination to life is concerned with how people are saved.

Predestination doesn't lock a person into behavior without his will agreeing. God isn't violating the freedoms people have in order to change them. God is changing wills, He's changing desires of those He chooses. He's not pressing a person to do something fatalistically against that person's desire. He's changing people entirely: from the inside out.

Again, Boettner is answering these questions in detail in a readable style. Print out the book if you like.

 

[nill]

To Boxmaker,

I'll fifth this motion (is it at five already?): stop reading here, and instead go read the book entitled The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. It's not a hard read by any means, and I reckon it will answer what you are asking here.

 

[Boxmaker]

Quoted from the first paragraph of Boettner

In the Westminster Confession, which sets forth the beliefs of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches and which is the most perfect expression of the Reformed Faith, we read: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." And further, "Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

I didn't even get past the first paragraph before I found things that appear as contridictions to me. There is one clause that says God ardained whatsoever (which seems to mean everything in this case) that comes to pass. This is followed by four clauses that point out God is did not ordain quite ordain everything but rather ordained that which is holy and merely established that which we would consider evil.

I find this interesting ecause if you look up ordain and establish, the both mean basicly the same thing. Ordain carries with it the conotation of a order that others carry out and follow. Establish carries with it the conotation of direct creation. But the both mean that God is responsible. So I'm struggling with the difference between ordain and establish. Any suggestions?

 

[Boxmaker]

In one of the links, I forget which one, sorry, it pointed out that predestination is required because if we were to have free will, excercising that free will to accept salvation would be a work. Since salvation is through faith alone, any work on our part is not allowed therefore, not possible.

This verse is from Revelations 3:
To the Church in Laodicea

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Verse 20 is the one that I am interested in at the moment. Jesus is speaking these words. He says He stands at the door and knocks. Anybody who hears and opens the door is saved. The verse says that we need to respond to what God initiates. Responding t God is not a work in the meaning that is generally used by the Bible. Typically, works in the Bible refers to helping and caring for those who need it. Telling God that we need Him, that we accept His offer of salvation is not a work, it is a statement of faith.

Your thoughts?

 

[Boxmaker]

To Boxmaker,

I'll fifth this motion (is it at five already?): stop reading here, and instead go read the book entitled The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. It's not a hard read by any means, and I reckon it will answer what you are asking here.

There comes a point when reading extra-biblical sources is good. Now is not the time. I listened to Bob George on the radio for several years before I read his book Classic Christianity. He was able to present the theaching of the Bible in a clear and well supported manor. He was able to defend his faith and give a reason for the hope that lies within.

So far, I have not seen a good support for the Reformed position nor have I read anything here that explains the hope you have.

If you are able to present a convencing argument for Calvinism, then I will read more. Until then, it is up to you to evangalize me.

 

[kimlva]

Until God opens your eyes to the truth of His Word, it will not matter how many things you read, or how many explanations you hear. But when (if) He does, it will all come together and make perfect sense, and you will wonder how in the world you ever missed it and why you didn't see it before.

 

[nill]

Boxmaker said:
"So far, I have not seen a good support for the Reformed position nor have I read anything here that explains the hope you have.

If you are able to present a convencing argument for Calvinism, then I will read more. Until then, it is up to you to evangalize me."



Boxmaker, come on. You wanted to know what the Reformed (Calvinistic) position on predestination was, so what do we do? Continually offer a resource for you to learn it (incidentally, a book called The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination). You want me to evangelize to you, you say, so what do I do? I point you to a far better source, and instead you reject it. And your reasoning is that what I'm pointing you to is "extra-Biblical." Well, I'm extra-Biblical, too, you know. If you wanted me to do nothing but throw Scriptures at you, then you could go read the Bible for yourself. If you wanted me to do nothing but explain these Scriptures to you, so that you grasp the Reformed understanding of predestination, then you could go get someone else's explanations--like, oh, I dunno, a guy who wrote a book on it? I haven't written a book on it. I haven't studied as long Boettner had. So my solution for your questions is to get past the first paragraph or however much you read of it, and then continue reading the book. You might as well have judged the book by its cover. (You stopped reading? Why would you stop reading? Is that really the best way to gather the book's whole scope? I think you know it's not.)

 

[Boxmaker]

Until God opens your eyes to the truth of His Word, it will not matter how many things you read, or how many explanations you hear. But when (if) He does, it will all come together and make perfect sense, and you will wonder how in the world you ever missed it and why you didn't see it before.

And this is helpful how?

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

I asked a question, in a provocative way, and have been call a dog, a swine and been told that I am not worth talking to. Your reply implies that you have no part in leading me, or anybody else, to findinf the truth. Really?

When somebody asks, or taunts you, don't you think you have a responsibility to respond in a Christian manor. You may end up doing the same thing over and over and over. Is a soul worth that? Does obediance to Jesus require it?

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker said:
"So far, I have not seen a good support for the Reformed position nor have I read anything here that explains the hope you have.

If you are able to present a convencing argument for Calvinism, then I will read more. Until then, it is up to you to evangalize me."



Boxmaker, come on. You wanted to know what the Reformed (Calvinistic) position on predestination was, so what do we do? Continually offer a resource for you to learn it (incidentally, a book called The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination). You want me to evangelize to you, you say, so what do I do? I point you to a far better source, and instead you reject it. And your reasoning is that what I'm pointing you to is "extra-Biblical." Well, I'm extra-Biblical, too, you know. If you wanted me to do nothing but throw Scriptures at you, then you could go read the Bible for yourself. If you wanted me to do nothing but explain these Scriptures to you, so that you grasp the Reformed understanding of predestination, then you could go get someone else's explanations--like, oh, I dunno, a guy who wrote a book on it? I haven't written a book on it. I haven't studied as long Boettner had. So my solution for your questions is to get past the first paragraph or however much you read of it, and then continue reading the book. You might as well have judged the book by its cover. (You stopped reading? Why would you stop reading? Is that really the best way to gather the book's whole scope? I think you know it's not.)

He studied it and wrote books on it. You are living it. If you are living it based on what he wrote, does it not make sense that you should be able to explain your faith? If you can't, what does that mean?

 

[nill]

Boxmaker said:
"He studied it and wrote books on it. You are living it. If you are living it based on what he wrote, does it not make sense that you should be able to explain your faith? If you can't, what does that mean?"


You do realize that this is what it comes down to, right: Boettner's words or mine? No, I can't explain it as well as he. So go read him. It's like you're begging for a poorer explanation.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Quoted from the first paragraph of Boettner
I didn't even get past the first paragraph before I found things that appear as contridictions to me. There is one clause that says God ardained whatsoever (which seems to mean everything in this case) that comes to pass. This is followed by four clauses that point out God is did not ordain quite ordain everything but rather ordained that which is holy and merely established that which we would consider evil.

I find this interesting ecause if you look up ordain and establish, the both mean basicly the same thing. Ordain carries with it the conotation of a order that others carry out and follow. Establish carries with it the conotation of direct creation. But the both mean that God is responsible. So I'm struggling with the difference between ordain and establish. Any suggestions?

Hello Boxemaker,

There are no controdiction there. If God were a man than there would be, but He is not man and not bound by our limitations.

The God of the Bible is One God and yet He is Three. This too makes no sense to many people, yet it is taught in Scripture and foundational to our faith.

Jesus Christ is wholly mand and He is also Wholly God, second person of the Holy Trinity. THis too is beyond our understanding.

The Scriptures teach that man is a morally responsable creature and all that he does he does willingly. The Scriptures also teach that man is fallen in Adam, he is a slave to sin, is concieved iniquity and is born speaking lies.

The Scripture Call man to follow God and tell us that own his own he can not do so. The Scriptures also tell us that God has determined the End from the Beginning and that He has Predestined who will be saved.

All of these things are true. The Scriptures teach all these things and they are not contradictioins. The Scriptures are not a buffet line were we can walk down the counter and pick and choose what we like and want and leave the parts we don't like. It is a package deal.

I can try to work with you on these things if you like. I have posted on this issue before and if you want to discuss these issues I may point to some of these previous posts now and then.

I wish you well,
Kenith