Will the Beast offer immortality?

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OttawaUk

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I thought about this today. Obviously in the last days its clear there are signs, wonders and supernatural things going on (Rev 13, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24).

Now here is my question, if the Beast will deceive most of the world, its clear that people will think he is of God. They will be deceived into thinking his mark is God's mark, otherwise why would they take it or worship him for that matter?

So that brings me to the point of this thread. Will part of the supernatural signs and wonders include immortality for those who follow him? Now let me be clear, I'm talking about immortality of the body, not forgiveness of sins. They would still be dead to sin, spiritually.

Consider this verse:

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." (Rev 9:6)

This verse does seem to indicate some sort of immortality for the wicked in those days.

It would be the complete opposite of what Christ did for us. Jesus came to save us spiritually not our flesh.

Will the Beast come to "save" the flesh yet the end result being eternal death for the soul in the lake of fire?

Your thoughts?

OU
 

timlamb

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I thought about this today. Obviously in the last days its clear there are signs, wonders and supernatural things going on (Rev 13, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24).

Now here is my question, if the Beast will deceive most of the world, its clear that people will think he is of God. They will be deceived into thinking his mark is God's mark, otherwise why would they take it or worship him for that matter?

So that brings me to the point of this thread. Will part of the supernatural signs and wonders include immortality for those who follow him? Now let me be clear, I'm talking about immortality of the body, not forgiveness of sins. They would still be dead to sin, spiritually.

Consider this verse:

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." (Rev 9:6)

This verse does seem to indicate some sort of immortality for the wicked in those days.

It would be the complete opposite of what Christ did for us. Jesus came to save us spiritually not our flesh.

Will the Beast come to "save" the flesh yet the end result being eternal death for the soul in the lake of fire?

Your thoughts?

OU
That verse is refering to those who do have the seal of God that is given to the 144000 Jews who come to faith in Christ after the rapture. See chapter 7
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Jesus came to save us spiritually not our flesh.

Actually, through the incarnation and resurrection, he did both. We'll go to heaven spiritually when we die, but at the end of time we will be united in new, physical bodies on a renewed, physical earth. God created us body and soul, and shall save us body and soul.

Anyway, the Book of Revelation is an ancient Jewish genre known as the apokalypsis, and its quite misleading to take things over-literally (some intertestimental Jewish apokalypsoi have keycodes and are shown to be quite symbolic and quite general in their meaning). As I see it, Rev 9:6 is a general statement that the suffering of the persecutors will be immense and prolonged.

Moreover, I think the Book of Revelation is primarily a book about Great Jewish Revolt of AD 66-74, specifically the Seige of Jerusalem and the final destruction of the temple (prophecied in Mark 13) in AD 70- the persecutors of the church are the collaborting Jewish authorities, and their suffering is chronicled in Josephus' The Wars of the Jews, Book VI, chapter 3.

(P.S. My belief about Revelation and the Great Jewish Revolt is not unfounded- 666 is a Hebrew word puzzle meaning Nero Caesar; the fleeing faithful remnant of Israel that goes into the mountains is reminiscent of the Jewish Christians who escaped the seige and fled into the mountains of the transjordan; the seven kings can be numbered to Nero; Babylon represents Rome, and the harlot is the collaborating Sadducees who have sold out the common Jews; and the heavenly visions correspond to the architecture of the temple, which was destroyed in these events)
 
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BombShelterBob

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GratiaCorpusCristi said:
Actually, through the incarnation and resurrection, he did both. We'll go to heaven spiritually when we die, but at the end of time we will be united in new, physical bodies on a renewed, physical earth. God created us body and soul, and shall save us body and soul.

Anyway, the Book of Revelation is an ancient Jewish genre known as the apokalypsis, and its quite misleading to take things over-literally (some intertestimental Jewish apokalypsoi have keycodes and are shown to be quite symbolic and quite general in their meaning). As I see it, Rev 9:6 is a general statement that the suffering of the persecutors will be immense and prolonged.

Moreover, I think the Book of Revelation is primarily a book about Great Jewish Revolt of AD 66-74, specifically the Seige of Jerusalem and the final destruction of the temple (prophecied in Mark 13) in AD 70- the persecutors of the church are the collaborting Jewish authorities, and their suffering is chronicled in Josephus' The Wars of the Jews, Book VI, chapter 3.

(P.S. My belief about Revelation and the Great Jewish Revolt is not unfounded- 666 is a Hebrew word puzzle meaning Nero Caesar; the fleeing faithful remnant of Israel that goes into the mountains is reminiscent of the Jewish Christians who escaped the seige and fled into the mountains of the transjordan; the seven kings can be numbered to Nero; Babylon represents Rome, and the harlot is the collaborating Sadducees who have sold out the common Jews; and the heavenly visions correspond to the architecture of the temple, which was destroyed in these events)

Yea.. i'sn't that the same kind of got it all figured out thinking that got the Jews in the trouble their in now.
 
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OttawaUk

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Sorry I meant to say our sinful flesh. Yes we will have glorified bodies and eternal life but our current physical bodies are dying even when we are spiritually alive.

The rest of your interpretation, I completely disagree with.

Nero is not 666, the Beast cometh.

OU
 
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bryanhilton

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It would be the complete opposite of what Christ did for us. Jesus came to save us spiritually not our flesh.

Will the Beast come to "save" the flesh yet the end result being eternal death for the soul in the lake of fire?

Your thoughts?

OU

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it says "17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (BibleGateway.com) which to me means that those who see this happen will tie into what 1 Corinthians 15:52 says about putting on the imperrishable. Any thoughts? Also, what about Enoch and Elijah who never died? I was also kinda curious about the people that Jesus brought back to life, I wonder if they died again or were taken away at some point that wasn't recorded, I never really thought about it until I started writing this. This is really interesting and hard to fathom with my finite mind!
 
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timlamb

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Actually, through the incarnation and resurrection, he did both. We'll go to heaven spiritually when we die, but at the end of time we will be united in new, physical bodies on a renewed, physical earth. God created us body and soul, and shall save us body and soul.

Anyway, the Book of Revelation is an ancient Jewish genre known as the apokalypsis, and its quite misleading to take things over-literally (some intertestimental Jewish apokalypsoi have keycodes and are shown to be quite symbolic and quite general in their meaning). As I see it, Rev 9:6 is a general statement that the suffering of the persecutors will be immense and prolonged.

Moreover, I think the Book of Revelation is primarily a book about Great Jewish Revolt of AD 66-74, specifically the Seige of Jerusalem and the final destruction of the temple (prophecied in Mark 13) in AD 70- the persecutors of the church are the collaborting Jewish authorities, and their suffering is chronicled in Josephus' The Wars of the Jews, Book VI, chapter 3.

(P.S. My belief about Revelation and the Great Jewish Revolt is not unfounded- 666 is a Hebrew word puzzle meaning Nero Caesar; the fleeing faithful remnant of Israel that goes into the mountains is reminiscent of the Jewish Christians who escaped the seige and fled into the mountains of the transjordan; the seven kings can be numbered to Nero; Babylon represents Rome, and the harlot is the collaborating Sadducees who have sold out the common Jews; and the heavenly visions correspond to the architecture of the temple, which was destroyed in these events)
This kind of talk just amazes me. With all the prophecy of Daniel and Isaiah and so many other books of the old and new testament, to say the book of revelation is to symbolic to be taken litterally, and then to claim it is anything but what John said it was, a prophecy from Jesus Christ....I can't say what I am thinking, it would be deleted.

The Jews didn't, and most still don't, see that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecy about Him 2000 yrs. ago. They read what they wanted Him to be into the prophecy and got it wrong. Where we who believe in Him can see how it was all fulfilled. It is the same with revelation, it will all happen just as it says.

The entire bible depends on revelation and genesis being true and accurate. You start tossing them out and you lost the integrety of the whole of scripture.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Yea.. i'sn't that the same kind of got it all figured out thinking that got the Jews in the trouble their in now.

Um..... no....

First of all, the Jews actually did have a lot of it figured out- the messiah was the one who would restore all Israel, open the worship of YHWH to the Gentiles, restore the proper form of worship, and conquer the worst enemies of God's people. Christ did all that- in the church, in Paul's missions, in eliminating the ritual law, and in defeating spiritual death. In the early first century there were about six or seven million Jews. By the late second century, there were about one million. Where did they all go? The Romans didn't kill them. They converted. They were convinced of the truth of Christianity precisely because Jesus fulfilled their expectations, not because he abandoned those expectations.

The Jews may not have seen perfectly, but they did far better than we give them credit.

Second of all, I certainly don't have it all figured out. It is, rather, pretribulation, premillennial dispensationalists who claim to be able to interpret the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation like some sort of roadmap to the future, month by month (RE: Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHay). I, rather, see general images. But where these general images are, they are quite clear.

For instance....

The rest of your interpretation, I completely disagree with.

666 is very definitely a word puzzle for Nero Caesar. Ancient alphabets had numerical equivilents for their letters (Roman numerals are a prime example).

So how is Nero Caesar spelled in Hebrew? Nrwn Qsr, or Nun (50), Resh (200), Vav (6), Nun (50), Kuf (100), Samekh (60), Resh (200). Add these up = 666.

Now granted this could just look like child's play if it stood alone. But it doesn't.

In certain early manuscripts, the number is preserved as 616. At a surface level this would seem to destroy the above they, but actually, it strengthens it. These manuscripts are most often found in western Europe, where there was limited knowledge of Hebrew (or Greek) and Latin was the norm. Now, if we take the Latin (Nero Caesar) and transliterate this into Hebrew, we get Nun (50), Resh (200), Vav (6), Kuf (100), Samekh (60), Resh (200) = 616. The textual variant is specifically engineered to make it more discernable to the Latin-speaker.

As for buying and selling without the mark of the beast- legionarres were tattooed on their foreheads and hands (and shoulders, to be fair) with the emperor's image, and the coins were minted with his image upon them. Moreover, one could not use Roman coins unless one participated in the emperor cult- the central religious feature of ancient Rome (its one reason there were moneychangers in the temple- only Tyrean sheckles would do for buying sacrifices, since Roman coins were idolatrous).

Now another clue- in AD 68 the empire was in rebellion against Nero and the man stabbed himself in the throat (dying with the words "What an artist dies in me!!"). And then, for the next two centuries, people were terrified of his impending resurrection. It was known as the Nero Redivinis myth. Sound like the beast, mortally wounded, and returning to life?

Another point- Revelation 17:10 speaks of seven kings- five have fallen, one is [ruling], and the other has not yet come. Who are the seven kings? The first seven emperors of the Roman Empire. Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Galigula, Claudius (the five fallen), Nero (the one ruling), and Galba (the one yet to come who shall rule for a little while- barely half a year, as it turned out).

...the Beast cometh.

May I make it clear that I don't deny this. Nero was the primary beast addressed in the book of Revelation, but certainly he points forward to the Antichrist- the Man of Sin in Paul, the Antichrist of John, the Gog and Magog at the end of the millennial age.

However, it is so very important to remember that these documents weren't locked away in a secret vault until the end of time. The Revelation was a document concerned with comforting Christians in John's present, as well as the future.

And this points us to a second aspect- the harlot of Babylon.

First of all, Babylon is often used as a reference to the primary oppressor of God's people. It is used in Isaiah 14 in such a capacity; and Peter sends greetings from the lady in Babylon writing from Rome.

But who is the false prophet who gives authority to the Beast (Nero)? Who is the harlot of Babylon (Rome)?

Caiaphas! And the Sadducean priesthood that defiled God's holy temple and collaborated with the Romans, going so far as to deny God's universal kingship and coming messiah as when Caiaphas yelled out to Pilate "We have no king but Caesar!" It was the Sanhedrin and Sadducean priests who whored out God's chosen people and turned them over to Rome- and prophecied (told a truth) of Caesar's rightful rule over Israel! And made daily sacrifices on his behalf in the temple!

These daily sacrifices were made on Caesar's behalf until AD 66, when the Great Jewish Revolt broke out- when the Jewish Christians alone escaped Titus' seige of Jerusalem and the temple was burnt down- an event still marked today on the saddest holiday in the Jewish year, Tisha B'Av (the ninth day of the month of Av). These Jewish Christians, I believe, are the same faithful remnant of Israel (ie, those Jews faithful to God and his new covenant through Christ) who are proported to be rescued in their entirety in Revelation 11.

Do remember that Christ said this generation will not pass away until those things prophecied in Mark 13 were fulfilled. And was was prophecied there? First, the destruction of the temple (most Christians agree on this); but second, a visitation of Christ in judgment. This is precisely what happened in AD 70 during the Seige of Jerusalem. The temple, defiled by collaborting Sadducean priests and Roman offerings, which represented the shadow which Christ came to fulfill in totality, was wiped off the map. In AD 66, shortly after the priests (under zealot influence) ceased offering sacrifices on behalf of Caesar, all Jerusalem saw a brilliant light shine from the temple and head a voice saying "Let us depart henceforth." There were numerous astrological events recorded by multiple historians of the period that speak to the event's apocalyptic nature, but this was the decisive one- the shekhinah glory, glowing, departed from the temple. The end of the age, as spoken of in Mark 13 and the Book of Revelation, had come. The Seige of Jerusalem marks, and the Book of Revelation records, the decisive end of the Jewish age in covenant history.

And where the old age of temple worship had ended, as shown to us in Revelation's apocalyptic scenes, the new age of worship had begun, shown to us in Revelation's heavenly scenes. As the book of Hebrews says, the temple was worship under shadows in mere imitation of heavenly worship; but Revelation shows John actually participating in heavenly worship. Amazing.

Anyway, I eagerly await your responses, brothers.
 
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OttawaUk

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Obviously I could be wrong as this is speculation, but it would mean that the Beast in effect sets up a global false Garden of Eden with a false Tree of Life.

Afterall the New Agers and Kaballahists do believe in a coming Tree of Life but more importantly there from what I see, there could be support in God's Word.

http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html

OU
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I think you know quite a lot, Ottowa, but I do not see this at all. I see no hint of it in scripture. Death will flee from them, seems to be God keeps them from dying for a bit so they suffer more.
I agree, even if I think it happened 1936 years ago.

Obviously I could be wrong as this is speculation, but it would mean that the Beast in effect sets up a global false Garden of Eden with a false Tree of Life.

Afterall the New Agers and Kaballahists do believe in a coming Tree of Life but more importantly there from what I see, there could be support in God's Word.

Now this I can definitely see- a false utopia, with man-as-god and perhaps, say, genetic engineering as the wellspring of life. I just don't think the one verse applies.
 
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OttawaUk

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Gratia,

I disagree completely.

1) The Beast, the False Prophet, and the Beast's followers are all destroyed at Christ's Second Coming. This is extremely clear by Revelation 19 as they gather their armies to fight Jesus! "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. " (Rev 19:19-20) This obviously means the Beast is in power at the time of Christ's coming to rule.

2) The False Prophet does signs and wonders. When did Caiaphas and the Sadducean priesthood have this power? "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev 19:20)

3) This tatoo system you're suggesting as the Mark. How can this be when all who received the Mark are condemned to the Lake of Fire when Christ returns? Also, look at this verse: "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Rev 16:2) When did this happen!?

4) Matthew 24 shows a long list of things which are to happen and Jesus says "This generation shall not pass iuntil all these things be fulfilled." The original question was "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:3). Now since I can list many, many events in Matthew 24 that have clearly not happened such as "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: " plus many others, so this clearly poses a problem. Since there are many unfulfilled prophecies, the generation which witnesses all of them cannot possibly have came to pass. This also means the Abomination of Desolation has not been fulfilled and it is still coming.

I could write much more, but I clearly don't prescribe to the preterist viewpoint at all.

OU
 
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BombShelterBob

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If it had happened we would be past the millennium, and time would be no more. I can see how you might think Nero was the Beast, but you have to do some pretty creative Bible interpretation to explain away the millinium, and the last battle. The Great White Thone of Judgment, What ever happened to that? Time has not ceased to be, or is my watch wrong? If time is no more Why did i even buy the watch in the first place? Why are we still dying wasn't that supposed to end also? If this is heaven we got ripped. Oh no what if this isn't heaven?
 
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