predestination vs. free will

[brownie3]

Okay, here we go... I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but I need answers, and the right answers at that! I'm confused as to what is the truth: free will (Christ died for all and if you accept His sacrifice you will be with Him in heaven one day) or predestination (God chose some people for salvation and some for damnation, to show His glory). I've been reading books on this and having somewhat of an email discussion with an acquaintance of mine - yet he is predestination all the way and has given me books as such, one of which first told me not to assume/believe anything that's not in the Bible, and then later goes on to state that he (the author) believes that God saves some and damns some to show the angels how great He is, and that they live on another planet in a galaxy far, far away which modern science could eventually take us to with space travel!

So, you see, I'm at odds with the information I've received thus far, and I don't know who/what to believe. I'm trying to discover more through my Bible readings, but sometimes the Bible seems contradictory... I know it doesn't really do that (I know this by faith!) but it seems that way. Also, the passages that people use to defend one viewpoint or the other are ones that, when I read them, can be taken in different ways, depending on what Jesus was really talking about when He said what He said (or what Paul said or whatever the particular passage may be)!!

Essentially, I'm looking for the church (that'd be you guys ) to give me some direction in this matter. It's so hard to trust what I already know, I'm afraid of not being able to trust that and more. Does that make sense? Hey, I appreciate any posts that'll help me get a better understanding of who God is and how He really does run things, in this regard. (I have a friend that says he believes free will, but he doesn't know if it's even an issue [i.e. does it matter?]. However, when thought through all the way, I see a significant difference in the personality/essence of God between these two viewpoints. That is why I want to know the truth - to know God for who He really is.)

 

[ArcticFox]

I would believe ALL of the Bible

The Bible has many warnings about remaining in the faith (Hebrews 3:12), but then it talks about God keeping us (John 10:29) and promising never to lose us (John 6:39). Which is it? I believe it is both. I believe that God uses these warnings to keep people in the faith. A God who predestines does not set the end and then leave the means to chance; that is, God doesn't determine what will happen in the end and then leave all the stuff in the middle to random chance. He guides and directs everything, the beginning, middle, and end.

You could take a look at my post about the 6 misconceptions of Calvinism; I think it paints a good picture of what many who believe in predestination believe that the Scriptures teach. You will be pleased to find MUCH Scripture. That post, however, does not address verses that seem to be contrary; that is something I would encourage you to seek out the help of John Piper, who has done some wonderful Scripture-searching to come up with a solid theology. His website is:

http://www.desiringgod.org

If you want to see the post I made, go here:

The 6 Misconceptions about What is Called Calvinism

If you believe in the whole counsel of God, then you may occasionally find yourself feeling contradictory; but at least you don't be flat-out denying any part of the Scriptures .

If you can't come to a conclusion now, that's ok; these things can take years to work out. Keep reading, and please do ignore that stuff about angels living on planets far away, I don't know WHERE that guy is getting that from; it's unnecessary for this discussion.

The most helpful two verses for me to determine if people are saved and then fall away, or if people are 'never really saved,' are the following. I won't interpret them for you, but let you read them and see for yourself what you think:

Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Blessings in your search for the truth! Your humble spirit will get you VERY Far; never lose it.

 

[stumpjumper]

This kind of reminds me of an essay by Karl Barth titled God's Word and The Decision of Faith...

Barth said that faith always means "choice, life, and transition" but then he went on to elaborate that a little further:

"In faith we acknowledge that we deserve wrath and rejection, the wrath and rejection which Jesus Christ has taken upon Himself in our place, in order to place us, whose life is glorified in Him, in the light of divine grace. We can only choose as men who have already been chosen!"

The choice is simply the acknowledgement of God's choice to redeem mankind...

 

[icxn]

St. John Damascene (8th century) explains the subject thoroughly IMO in his Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, CHAPTER XXV "Concerning what is in our own power, that is, concerning Free-will." through CHAPTER XXX "Concerning Prescience and Predestination."

Here's the text (You have to scroll towards the end to locate the chapters).

 

[ozbloke]

Hey Brownie,

Well for a long time, I was very much in the free will camp. I have, however, seen the light

I was involved in a discussion that really helped me understand and clarify the issue in my mind - think of it this way. You have the choice in any situation to do what you want. Thats the free will bit. Now, the better you know someone, the better you know what decision they will make in a given situation - I don't know you, so I cant say whether you might prefer , say, in a trivial example, chocolate or fruit. My wife, who I know fairly well after 10 years of marriage I can say that not only would she probably choose chocolate, but I could have a fair stab at *what* chocolate she would choose.

God knows us so well - better than we could possibly know anyone or even ourselves, that he can predict with absolute certainly which decision that you will make in any circumstance. He can then 'plan' future events based on that choice, even tho you may not have made the choice, or know what choice you would make.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[brownie3]

Ozbloke, you say God predicts our choice (Him or Satan, essentially) and then plans around it. But does He not also plan our personality, our very persons, so that in that way He is also controlling the choice we'd make? So we are, after all, not even making a choice, as God formed us in a way that would make us choose Him or Satan. Therefore, no free will. Right?

 

[Rick Otto]

and they are "free" only in a very limited,(unfree) way.
Only The creator is free of the limits of His creation.
Our choices being predestined do not make them any less OURs.
Romans 9 raises & answers these questions.

11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

>>>Not of works - not of our own decision. All works in creation are a part of creation & subject to the predeterminate counsel according to His knowledge before his act of creation. Ephesians 1*

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

>>>Here again, our personal decision to believe is pointed out as the result, not the cause, of God's mercy toward us.

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

>>That was your question re: how we can be held responsible for predetermined choices. Notice how Paul's answer is a correction of the very premise of that question.

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

>>dishonor being equatable with damnation.
Here's why God would do such a thing:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

*Ephesians 1 displays the omniscience involved in God's total sovereignity, His foreknowledge is a result of predeterminate counsel of a Potter with a vision, not mere clairvoyance of for example, which horse will win a race, or which card will be chosen from a deck.

4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Instead of predestination giving me license to "lay back" on my walk of faith, it has greatly relieved me of the stress of believing my salvation was dependant in any way on me, freeing a tsunami of gratitude that serves well as motivation to justify my salvation before mankind with good works I've been ordained to walk in.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Read 9-17 for the full, extremely edifying context!
And yet again, regarding ordained good works:
Ephesians2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Forgive me for saying this, but... I've always loved the epistle from the apostle with the emphasis at Ephesus!

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I think this thread is based on a slight misconception of the overaching debate.

No single confession of faith of any Protestant denomination rejects predestination. Predestination is clearly taught in Scripture.

The question is, rather: Does God predestine us according to His foreknoweldge of a choice we will make, or does He predestine us according to His good please and divine will?

The two sides to the debate, as it is commonly presented, take one of these two options. Arminians (whose theology permiates Methodist, Baptist, and evangelical churches) state that God predestined according to his foreknowledge of our future choice- conditional election. Calvinists (whose theology permiates Reformed/Presbyterian and Anglican churches) state that God predestined according to the good pleasure of His will alone- unconditional election.

And I would be inclined to the latter view (Calvinist unconditional election), because where Scripture speaks of foreknowledge (Romans... 9? 11?) it does not specify the content of that knowledge (some future choice), yet where it speaks of 'good pleasure and will' it is specifically within the context of predestination (Ephesians 1).

Moreover, since I believe in total depravity, I do not believe that humans have the capacity for free will after the fall. I also do not believe in what Arminians call 'prevenient grace,' a grace that since the atonement has reversed the blinding and paralyzing effects of sin and so allows people to choose, since it is found nowhere in Scripture.

 

[hopperace]

Hi brownie, and welcome again to CF. As you might see, even we, the Church, are quite a diverse group when it comes to the nuts-and-bolts of theology. The classic Arminian/Calvinist debate harkens back to the Augustinian/Pelagius debate, which is an ancient dual in the history of the Church. Orthodox Christianity, in other words, what the Church has historically supported in its understanding of Christian Scripture, has supported the predestination side of the equation. Modern predominance in Christianity tends to support the free-will side of the equation. I’m what you would call a historic predestinationalist, or a Calvinist, if you will.

Essentially in any high view of Christian Scripture as inerrant and non-contradictory we are left to find some way of piecing all that it teaches together in some way that makes a coherent whole – that, after a fashion, makes sense of everything we find there. It doesn’t necessarily have to answer all of the questions we have concerning it, but the answers we find have to fit together in a non-contradictory way. Some (especially many non-Christians, but even some Christians) feel this is a naturally forced matter, squeezing the Bible into the molds we’ve fashioned for it. As a Biblicist (the term Calvin preferred for himself) I’m inclined to view that both proponents of predestination and free-will are mostly genuinely seeking to determine what the Scriptures actually support as true – they’re just seeing the truth from different vantage points of emphasis. The Bible is often paradoxical, where two seemingly conflicting matters are nonetheless both true and non-contradictory. Calvinism and Arminianism are certainly contradictory with each other, but they are each systematic ways formulated to make sense of what is found in Scripture.

Your mention of reading that heaven as a planet, is a bit disconcerting. It sounds as though you may have been reading some literature of the Watchtower Society – the Jehovah’s Witnesses – which I find inconsistent with the Christian Scriptures. I would caution you in this regard, but that’s perhaps another matter entirely.

Specifically as regards predestination and free-will, I personally reason from the Scriptures that God is sovereign over all his Creation. He is God and his will cannot be thwarted. Human will cannot supersede His will nor influence it in any way. To do otherwise would seem, to me, to give man some power over God or even put man in God’s stead, as god himself. There is no question that we were created in God’s image, distinct in this regard from all other creatures. The debate begins with what this means, and with what happened when human sin entered into the picture, and there is actually quite a bit of historical diversity from Christianity in this regard. Is man now born in some stain from that original sin, or is man born with a sinless nature? I would ascertain the former. Does original sin so corrupt the image of God in man as to render our free-will bound to sin, or do we maintain a capacity, by virtue of God’s image, to lead a sinless life and make good, holy, and perfect choices? I would ascertain the former. I would claim that God made us with free-will as part of His image in us, but that our will is now bound to sin. This is what I reason the Scriptures teach, and what I evidence from life experience.

One of the many sticky issues of this, is that (in predestination) the choice is all God’s, as to what will become of us; and yet the responsibility of the binding of our free-will as a slave to sin (due to Adam and Eve’s disobedience, as well as our own) is all our own. Essentially, we have already used our free-will to make a choice which has bound and limited our free-will, as well as our ability to please God or bend our own will back to Him in any perfect, sinless, fashion that would be acceptable to Him. He must enable us again, by a restoration through His Holy Spirit quickened in us, which He has predestined to do before the foundation of the world.

Another sticky point, is that the Bible clearly indicates that He predestined this for those He chose. And the debate rages as to the who and what of this choosing.

Oh, and it’s quite common for each side (both predestination and free-will) to mischaracterize the other and aim to frame their disparate positions in the worst possible light. This seems to be the nature of debate, even by well-meaning Christians intent toward loving one another and championing the cause of Christ.

 

[Axion]

Here is the anti-predestination view of Arminius

http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius7.htm

 

[Sothron]

I sincerely doubt God sat around in Heaven and one day decided to create humanity and on a whim decided that half (or more) of his creations would be condemned with no choice and the others would be saved despite anything they might do or believe.

Jesus said that no man may come to the Father but through him. He did not then add "Except you Bob and your wife and your great great grandson. And oh yeah Bill? Its your lucky day. God drew your name out of the Heavenly Top Hat and you get in despite the fact in two years time you will be a Hindu."

I have never nor will ever understand how anyone can think God can be as capricious as that or that Jesus's sacrfice was basically a mulligan since certain people are getting in no matter what.

No thanks.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I sincerely doubt God sat around in Heaven and one day decided to create humanity and on a whim decided that half (or more) of his creations would be condemned with no choice and the others would be saved despite anything they might do or believe.

You're framing the debate in terms of a strict either/or; either God predestinating all people to either heaven or hell (Calvinist), or his predestination is entirely dependent on their foreknowledge (Arminian).

What about Lutherans?!

We believe in single predestination. God created the world knowing that many would reject him. He didn't predestine them to hell; that is human free will rejecting God. Yet he chose to save some by predestining them to eternal life- maybe not ot according only to his good pleasure and will before the foundation of the world, but perhaps according to his foreknowledge of the Spirit's action in the Church. Not according to his foreknowledge of people's future choice, since post-fall choice for God is impossible.

 

[Sothron]

I believe that God knows in the end whether or not each individual person will accept Him or not. But each day of that person's life they have the concious free choice to accept Him and those that do not have only themselves to blame. Not a quanitity of grace that they did not have or they missed the secret elect handshake that gets you in the club.

And for myself it really is a simple either/or. Either you believe that Jesus died for all of us and allows all of us the opportunity to be lifted through salvation or his death was essentially a mulligan since those who know the secret handshake get let in no matter what they do in life.

No offense to anyone's beliefs or sensibilities. I do not believe in the slightest God would arbitrarily select some of his creations and condemn the others. We, the creations, make a concious choice of our free will. He knows what we pick in the end but it is our own choice.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

And for myself it really is a simple either/or. Either you believe that Jesus died for all of us and allows all of us the opportunity to be lifted through salvation or his death was essentially a mulligan since those who know the secret handshake get let in no matter what they do in life.

This is not the Calvinist nor the Lutheran position. If one is elect, then they will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit since, by being elect, God has placed the Spirit in them.

Moreover, the only reason God's election can be communicated to us is because Christ died on the cross. If the cross did not allow for the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness than there would simply be no means for this election to be effective.

I believe that God knows in the end whether or not each individual person will accept Him or not.

This assumes we can make such a choice in the first place. Show me where in Scripture the capacity for faith is presented as a choice, because as I recall Scripture says that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit. God much work on us first. Any later choice is merely a reflection is a justification given by grace that has already occured.

 

[Sothron]

Show me in the Scripture where Jesus says that only certain people are saved after accepting Him. I do not recall Jesus ever saying or coming close to suggesting that entire concept.

If you are using "good works" as proof of the "elect" then we slip even further into the abstract. Unless God opened up the Book of Life and let us carefully record every single name found therein no man may know or suppose whose name is written in it.

As for the choice, of course you made a decision in the first place. You made a concious decision of your own free will to accept Christ as Savior. And by that decision you are redeemed. No where in the Scripture does it state that that very same redemption is dependent on your name being crosschecked off a list somewhere.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Show me in the Scripture where Jesus says that only certain people are saved after accepting Him. I do not recall Jesus ever saying or coming close to suggesting that entire concept.

This is not at all what I am saying. 'Only certain people are saved after accepting Him' ? No, not at all. All who accept him are saved, but it is God who chose them, not they who chose God. Their 'acceptance' is only an outward sign of what God has already accomplished in their hearts.

If you are using "good works" as proof of the "elect" then we slip even further into the abstract.

I never suggested, as Calvinists do, that good works tell us (or God, for that matter) who the elect are and who the elect aren't. I merely stated that it is unreasonable to think that God's election will not effect good works in the individual who is elected, as you characterized the doctrine.

Good works are not the evidence of salvation, but they are the result. Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Look at the epistle of James.

As for the choice, of course you made a decision in the first place. You made a concious decision of your own free will to accept Christ as Savior. And by that decision you are redeemed.

No I didn't. God chose me. I can't remember a time in my life when I wasn't a Christian.

We're the chosen people, not the choosing people. Show me somewhere in Scripture where it says that our faith is a result of choice, and not a result of God's grace.

No, it is God's action that implants faith in us (no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit ), not we that exert our will and so direct some inborn faith toward a spiritual ideal.

 

[Sothron]

I posted this on a similiar thread on TAW, taken from an Orthodox site:

THE TEACHING ON PREDESTINATION AND THE VENERATION OF SAINTS. Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consis-tent. If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish? There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."

The erroneousness of the reformers'teaching is obvious. It perverts the truly Christian understanding of God's justice and mercy, of man's worth and purpose as a free and rational being. God appears here not as a loving, merciful Father, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition.
The Orthodox Church also recognizes predestination, but does not consider it unconditional, that is, independent of men's free well and based on a groundless decision of the divine will. Accord-ing to Orthodox teaching, God, as omniscient, knows, foresees the moral state of men and, on the basis of this foresight, preordains, predetermines for them a certain fate.

But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state; He does not preordain either a virtuous or a sinful life and does not at all inhibit our freedom. Therefore, even the Apostle Paul, whom the reformers cite, very closely connects the teaching on predestination with the teaching on God's foresight. In the Epistle to the Romans, he explains this thought in detail, and, incidentally, says concerning predestina-tion: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son? Moreover whom he did pre-destinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). In this way, God predestinates to glory not according to His groundless arbitrariness, as the reformers think, but according to His foreknowledge of a man's merits accomplished through his free will.

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

Think of it this way. God is timeless. He lives in one 'indivisable present.' There is no past or future with Him. Therefore, all must be predestined, because it is impossible for God to be outside of time yet unknowing and not ordaining the things that belong to time.

Jesus said: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Notice He doesn't say all. Only many.
My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me
Jesus says He knows His sheep, and logically, that they can be numbered.

"I do not believe in the slightest God would arbitrarily select some of his creations and condemn the others."


And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Calvinists don't believe God arbitrarily selects from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor. God has purpose in those that are called, and they are predestined to the image of His son.

"but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition."

Rom 9:19. Paul introduces the question of 'how does He find fault' yet he gives no answer. None. Paul does not even begin to try to defend how God finds fault. He instead alludes to Job 38. We have no right to make statements of God's decisions.


I don't understand how people can Biblically stand for Pelagian heresies that were denied so many years ago. Not even Arminius was daft enough to say that we have total free will. He only erred on the side of previnient grace. His followers resurrected the old heresies. The idea of man being in control of his own destiny is completely antithetical to all of scripture, and is only a rationality made by western men who want to give honor to the intentions of their mind. Paul calls this foolishness. Romans 9 will not stand for the dotrine of man's ultimate determination.

 

[Sothron]

Yes, we all know how much the Orthodox Church has been influenced by Protestants.

 

[ozbloke]

Hi Brownie,

Ozbloke, you say God predicts our choice (Him or Satan, essentially) and then plans around it. But does He not also plan our personality, our very persons, so that in that way He is also controlling the choice we'd make? So we are, after all, not even making a choice, as God formed us in a way that would make us choose Him or Satan. Therefore, no free will. Right?

Hmm, thats a very good question. I can't say that I have thought about it to that extent. I think when I have a minute, I will read through the links posted by other responders and have a look at that. For the moment, I don't have an answer to your question tho. Sorry.