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Recent developments and a dilemma...

Simonski

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...
 

rocklife

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can I share a preaching about hellfire that is biblically sound (since you mention)? It really helps show God is loving. http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp and click Watch on Cities of Ash

I hope I can add, that christians are not perfect, I still make mistakes. The bible encourages us to be patient with each other. I hope in your search, you will continue seeking truth, even if Jesus' representatives haven't done such a great job, and try to study for yourself too, not base too much on other's opinions and talk. then you won't be easily swayed, if you study for yourself

:wave:
 
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duskiness

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
i think i know where are you caming from. "opium to people" and "fairytale for those who can grow up"... at least that is what i believed
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
I'm quite glad that you start to worry ;)
That's a C.S. Lewis about his conversion:
You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.
He also said:
I came into Christianity kicking and screaming
You are not the first and not the last to feel that way :D
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be
and what was before those "past few months"?.
Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...
I don't think that staying an atheist will give you today happiness. The sole fact that you came here, means that there is some fight in you.
it took me 2 or 3 years of going from "God" to "no god" back and forth before admitting that i believe. But once i started question, i couldn't find peace of mind for all those years
As a Christians i believed He has called you and you have heard it. Now, you will either try to fallow or try to silence this voice.
Either way it's a struggle before you and not a little, calm happiness.

I also don't think that giving up morals is so important (not to mention that Christians also disagree in some points - homosexuality included). Faith includes morality but that's not the main point. "Being good to avoiding hell" is also not that important (that's a trade and not faith - i'll be a good girl and you will nice in return).
The question is: is there is a God or not. If He is, then everything is different.
And one more quote (i think it's also Lewis):
Every story of conversion is the story of a blessed defeat.
hoping to see you defeated one day :)
n.
 
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Rafael

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...
Don't be afraid of losing anything or hating yourself for coming to freedom, as Jesus told us that the truth sets us free from the great deception of the devil that there is no Creator of man.
True love cancels out the fears and God gives us the help we need to heal from any emotional hurt that may come with disappointment in self or injury to pride. Eventually, we give up our pride in exchange for the divine nature that God is willing to share with us, and we find great esteem in allowing God's love to live through us.
The people that call themselves by Christ's name that hold up hateful banners over the homosexual community are as deceived as any because the only debt we have to mankind is love. Hate has no place in God's will for us to do towards another person. A "moral" position for the homosexual community for the Christian should always be love, although that does not mean we have to agree with undulging ourselves with a life of sin; but never to condemn others and judge for God the final analysis only He is able to see and make as Creator of those people who are our brothers and sisters in flesh. We are to have hope, faith, and love for them and to hold them up in prayer before God, being willing to help any and all - friend or even those who would harm us as enemies. The standard is set high for the Christian life and we often fail, but God's words never fail even though it takes quite a bit of time to understand and come to terms with our own egos and mistrusts that God will see final justice done for all. The first death is not the final note for any man and only God can judge the life of another although we often think to do so wrongly.
Essentially we are to encourage others to work on the eternal aspects of life and get away from the temporal life that focuses mainly on the self gratification of our flesh when the whole world cries out for help in pain. As a race of beings, the Bible puts its finger squarely on the condition of mankind's fallen nature to sin and die, having little love for others or the hope and faith that God says is eternal. We are simply called to service - one to another, in the practical love that shares the same things we would have for ourselves. We show love to ourselves by caring and nuturing our own bodies, washing, feeding, and clothing ourselves, and to see a neighbor in need and not help them to have the same is to not know the practical love spoken of in the Bible. The idea of loving self from the Bible is mistaken when to love self only means that we feed, clothe, and give shelter to our own bodies and should make sure the rest of the world enjoys the same as we. Is that what we see in the world or in ourselves? No, we are selfish by nature, even from the womb, and as a world we let millions go without every night and day - bringing upon ourselves their blood as a responsibility that should be taken more seriously. If seen babies barely able to walk fight and throw fits over toys, displaying the sin nature even as infants. So the Bible does say we are born dead spiritually into that fallenness that only Jesus escaped, being born of a virgin and the Holy Spirit so that He could live that one life identified with mankind that would bare the complete weight of sin and death for us all - once and for all. Why did He have to die for our sins? Because God is Holy and just and had to give man the choice in the garden or love would not exist. It cannot be forced on another being. Was there a time when the dimension of the spiritual and the physical came together more closely as in the Garden of Eden? Well why not? Scientists are finding that they now think the universe has 10 dimensions and we only perceive four of them. The unseen makes up more of reality than does the seen...
No matter what obstacle you may imagine in your way, God is calling you and do not let Him pass you by. Make a step of faith towards HIm by asking Him in common prayer to help you know Him more, and that He would help you with all the pieces. He is able to do that and more, as I can testify from my own life. I was once agnostic, never being able to say a being like God impossible, but through the years I have come to know some rather astounding things about how just great the deception is on this world. History shows us where these people are and have gone that are depicted in the Bible, but few look to see where the "sons of the lving God" might be and the characteristics and covenant they have. The prophecies are true, and I watch them unfold before my eyes through the very time I am living right now. Information has made the world much more easily observed that at any other time in history.
Don't let fear of loss rule your life. God would set you free, although sooner or later your love could be so great for Him that you would sell all you have just to be His servant. Being part of His will and family has to be the greatest expectation one could ever have, as it holds eternity.
 
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Key

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...

Well first of all, you might want to look around, and see if "Every Christian" believes all that "Fire and Brimstone" stuff. Maybe you might find that there are many diffrent paths to God and Christ.

As for your morals. Do you loose them, or just change them. Our morals change over our lives, things we thought were fine at 20 years old, are not so "Fine" when we hit 40 years old. Our morals change when we get married, when we have a child, when our best friend dies froma drinking and driving accident, (Suddenly having a few beers and cruseing down the road, does not seem all that "Ok" anymore).

So our morals, are not something we "Loose" but something that changes as we change. Becomming a Follower of Christ is not like "BAM, Here is your card, your life just went and changed" it changes, you make a choice, but then you follow that choice, like say going on a diet.

If you follow the diet because you know it is what is best for you, not because you feel that "You have to follow this diet to avoide being fat", then following it becomes easier, and over time, even a joy, some of the foods that you thought were soooooooooooo goooooooood, seems to lack any appeal to you, because, now, you do not even remember why you thouht they were so good to start with. But with any diet, you start slow, you make choices, and you follow the diet that is going to work the best for you, some times you fall short, some times you 'Sneak a bite", and it's a process of growth, and change as you progress, be careful not to just blindly follow the diet that worked the best for someone else, but take care to follow the diet that you can live with, and works best for you.

Hope I have helped.

But I want to say, I think that it is wonderful that you are taking a new look at things, maybe you should take a equally new look at Christanity, and see if it is all that you rememberd it to be, you might find that there is a lot more to the followers of Christ then just one church, and one way of doing things. There are many diffrent Churchs, and many diffrent ways of doing things.

Take a moment, and look at the diffrent Churchs, church hop and try diffrent ones, and stop at the church that made you feel at home and works the best for you.

If I can help you any more, or answer any more questions you may have, let me know. PM me if you want.

God Bless

Key.
 
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Keturah

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if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...

Christians hold many different views about hell and homosexuality. Maybe you'd like to have a nosey around the liberal theology forum...there's usually good discussion on these topics in there.
 
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Calminian

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...

Your reasoning seem to be spot on here. Jesus said,

Matt. 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 “who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Christ is more valuable than any thing or idea that we may hold on to.
 
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Rowan

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I know how you feel. I was brought to Christ "kicking and screaming" in my own way as well.

The fact that your inner militant athiest "went out for a smoke" is evidence of the Spirit working in your mind and heart. He is patient with us, thankfully.

I had to give up aspects of my life as well, but, eventually, I counted the loss as a gain. The treasures of wisdom in Christ surpass what I had before.

This is a big step, and it is life-changing. It's really normal to be aprehensive about change. It's outside of your comfort zone. All I can say is focus on Christ, and lay earthly issues, like the topic of homosexuality, alone for a while.

God makes it all worth it.
 
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FallingWaters

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice. It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like. So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...
I used to have a similar dilema when I would hear the gospel. I didn't want to give up anything. Thankfully, I got to the point where I realized that I was a sinner in need of a savior, and all that other stuff just didn't matter as much any more. Once I repented of my sins, God gave me the desire to be good and do good, and took away the desire for the things I was previously unwilling to give up.
 
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ebia

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'Sup chums! Earlier tonight (hang on, that's yesterday...) (in the UK of course) I had a strange feeling come over me. For the last two years or so I've been what I like to call a militant atheist, I'd happily argue with anyone who displayed the slightest trace of religion and ended up living with what was essentially an atheist faith (in my own view at the time, yes, this is a paradox!) seeing as I'd stopped listening to evidence and had utterly convinced myself that there was no god, that prayer didn't work and all that jazz.
But over the past... four days or so something changed inside me, that militant atheist had lain down his weapons and gone for a smoke, which is why I started posting on here (well, that change and a rather angry referral by a close friend of mine), slowly I've started to really think about it and I'm gradually starting to understand the possibility of god. I'll say this now, this worries me deeply.
Over the past few months I've managed to prove to myself (whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen) that God is imaginary, that the bible is nothing but lies and that Jesus wasn't as great as he was cracked up to be. Now I've got a problem, if I accept Christianity and start believing in god (which is possible) I will end up potentially hating myself for agreeing with a religion which (through my MAism) I've not found all that nice.
So look for an expression of Christianity that is "nice". For pity's sake don't join an expression that you know isn't.

It would also mean giving up lots of things that I think are important, my moral position on homosexuality and the like.
Would it? Again, examine whether the expressions of Christianity that are more in-line with what you already know to be moral might not be closer to where God is calling you.


So here's the crux of the problem (pun intended), if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true,
Why join that brand of Christianity? I wouldn't.


then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it, but if I remain militant atheist, or at least moderate atheist I can keep my morals as they are and be happy with myself for it, I just don't know what to do...
You seem to be setting yourself up with a false dilema - atheism or a rather nasty version of fundamentalism. There are plenty of other choices.
 
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Athaliamum

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The belief in God is just the start. Now you need to work on getting to know Him and really Him for who he is that is based upon scripture and not based upon other people's opinions. I would start with the gospel of Luke, his matiulous style for detail as a doctor would likely appeal to your want of particulars.

Also there is a website

http://www.givemeananswer.org/main/home/index.html

which contains arguments from both sides by people far more knowledgeable then I. Cliffe Knechtle is one of the best apologists I've seen in a very long time. He spends his time putting himself on the line in the public grounds of colleges answering questions about christianity and he is one of the most "real life" talkers I've heard. Maybe give that a got too.
 
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Radagast

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... if I become a Christian and all that fire and brimstone hell and whatnot is true, then I'll have to give up my morals to avoid it...
Surely not! One must never give up morals!

But if you accept Jesus as you Saviour, you will find your moral beliefs on some topics slowly changing...
 
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JustAVessel

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Hi! I'm trying to think of what I should tell you. Well, first I want to let you know that I'm really glad that you are considering the possibility of God and Christianity. Let me tell you this: Christianity is true. People shouldn't "choose" religions the way that they choose their favorite flavors of ice cream. The more facts you know about Christianity, to deny those facts would be to deny the truth. You would essentially be lying to youself. Is that something you want to do? Especially given the consequences? I'm not the type that preaches "fire and brimstone" but it is a definite reality.

What parts of Christianity do you find "not all that nice"? Is it true-from-the-Bible Christianity or is it religious legalism made by people? And about having to change- it's natural for us to hold on to our own beliefs and our own ways, but what God gives us is so much more. We try to content ourselves with "broken cisterns (wells)" when Jesus Himself is the "wellspring of life". We turn from what is good for a poor substitute.

This is kind of an odd way of putting it, but maybe it'll help. Life without Jesus is like a donut because there's a hole in the middle of you. And do they have those toys in England where there's these holes, and kids are supposed to put the right-shaped blocks in the right-shaped hole? For example, the square block goes through the square hole, the star shape goes through the star hole...etc. Well, that hole in our hearts- that's a God-shaped hole. Only God can fill it. But we try to cram so much stuff in that hole. People try different things: sometimes money, drugs, success, even family and friends. Some of those, like family and friends, are good things, but they're no substitute for God. People need family and friends and such, but they also need God. Only God can fill that God-shaped hole.

What I'm trying to say is that while there is some personal sacrifice involved, the gain is far greater- in this life and definitely in the next.

I will pray for you. PM me if you have any questions.
God bless!
 
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Simonski

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Thanks again for all the replies, I've come to a decision, for now at least. I'm going to remain an atheist. You see, the problem I've had with accepting the logic behind Christianity is that I'm a very logical person, I think a lot about what I choose to do or believe and at the moment I can't accept Christianity as being right, it just doesn't make sense to me. One of the primary reasons behind this is the number of different 'Christian' churches, like one of you said "People shouldn't "choose" religions the way that they choose their favorite flavors of ice cream." but that's what having to choose a church looks like to me, to an atheist at least, it looks like you're trying to dress up something that is difficult to take as it is, and that's not for me.

Thanks again for the replies, I'll stick around

All the best,

Simonski
 
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Calminian

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...One of the primary reasons behind this is the number of different 'Christian' churches, like one of you said "People shouldn't "choose" religions the way that they choose their favorite flavors of ice cream." but that's what having to choose a church looks like to me, to an atheist at least, it looks like you're trying to dress up something that is difficult to take as it is, and that's not for me.....

:( I’m saddened, but I'm actually glad you pointed this out, Simonski. This is exactly what many people do, including many on this thread. There's a tendency to make christianity PC in order to sell it. Just take out what you don't like. ;) Don't like hell? Reinterpret it! Don't like what it says about homosexuality? Impose your own beliefs onto it :doh:

My suggestion is, look to the Bible and test every christian testimony by it. Treat christians as the Bereans treated Paul.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
 
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Simonski

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:( I’m saddened, but I'm actually glad you pointed this out, Simonski. This is exactly what many people do, including many on this thread. There's a tendency to make christianity PC in order to sell it. Just take out what you don't like. ;) Don't like hell? Reinterpret it! Don't like what it says about homosexuality? Impose your own beliefs onto it :doh:

My suggestion is, look to the Bible and test every christian testimony by it. Treat christians as the Bereans treated Paul.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
That sounds like a good idea, an atheist friend of mine said "The bible is the militant [atheist]'s best friend", though it gets a bit time consuming : P!
 
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heron

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You see, the problem I've had with accepting the logic behind Christianity is that I'm a very logical person, I think a lot about what I choose to do or believe and at the moment I can't accept Christianity as being right, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Lol, Simon, there are many other logical people here at CF... some with PhD's. Ask a few people what their backgrounds are... you'd be amazed.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not going to twist your arm. Just try to separate how you relate to God, and how you relate to people.

What I mean, is -- if you think there's a chance there's a God, then it's completely between Him and you. You don't need to tell everyone else, or start defending Him, or start defending Christianity.

He knows better than anyone that there are errors in the church. Look through the Bible, and you'll find plenty of admonishments to corruption within the church. He knows. You don't suddenly have to start liking everything attached to God's name.

Argue it out with Him. Go one on one, reasoning with Him. He knows who you are and the way that you think. He won't crumble if you say something offensive.

Meanwhile, feel free to hang out here and be yourself. But don't miss the opportunity to face God for who He is... not who everyone wants Him to be.

Forty years from now, would you rather say that you had a good conversation with God, or say that you won many conversations with people?
 
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