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What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

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racer

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Hi Racer :wave: ,

In your opinion, what was the purpose and intent of the writers of the NT? Was it the same intent that one has when writing a biography/history book?

God Bless :)

Asinner, bless you girl! :wave: But why do so many people ask what others think regarding something without sharing what they think about the same issue?

Not necessarily, I was just responding to ThisRock's dismissal of my analogy using Stephen King as to how we know or don't know if all of a story has been told in only one book.

I think that Scripture was preserved in writing for purposes of telling the story of Christ, to substantiate His existence and His mission and to instruct. Basically, the same as the OT.

Now, if we were to specify that the NT was written solely to instruct, this would be even more reason to argue that it is not logical that any book provided for instructional purposes would leave any necessary instructions out. :) :wave:
 
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Asinner

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Asinner, bless you girl! :wave: But why do so many people ask what others think regarding something without sharing what they think about the same issue?

Not necessarily, I was just responding to ThisRock's dismissal of my analogy using Stephen King as to how we know or don't know if all of a story has been told in only one book.

I think that Scripture was preserved in writing for purposes of telling the story of Christ, to substantiate His existence and His mission and to instruct. Basically, the same as the OT.

Now, if we were to specify that the NT was written solely to instruct, this would be even more reason to argue that it is not logical that any book provided for instructional purposes would leave any necessary instructions out. :) :wave:

The writers instructed them on those issues they were struggling with. I believe that most of what Christ left to the Apostles is eluded to, at the very least, in the Scriptures, but certainly not everything is explicit. The Church received explicit teachings and upholds them to this day. The scriptures record truths that were already set forth, some explict, most implicit; therefore, cannot be used as a set of explicit instructions, although many people do use them as such, including personalizing the original meaning/context, the fruit of which, is made evident in the thousands of churches today.

You raise an interesting point. If what you say is correct about the scriptures being similar to that of an autobiography/history book and not leaving out anything significant, then certainly, by reading a biography of, let's say, George Washington's life, one can duplicate his life, in exact detail, to the original. Was everything explicitly recorded to make this scenario true?

Love,
Christina
 
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racer

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Asinner said:
The writers instructed them on those issues they were struggling with.

The writers instructed who on issues with which who struggled? Were they writing to clarify to themselves particular issues? If this is the case, how do you explain the four Gospels? You have four stories that are basically the same, tell basically the same tale, but only from different points of view. What would be the reason for such redundancy, if limited space was an issue? Why would God have chosen to take up four chapters of such an important book by repeating the same story if other issues of importance were going to have to be left out? How did He determine what would or wouldn’t be left out?

The four Gospels tell of Jesus’ earthly ministry, why would they tell the same story if other teachings were missing? Do you not believe that Scripture is inspired by God? Knowing this, do you think that God chose only to address issues with which only Christians of the biblical era struggled? Would He have not foreseen the struggle future Christians would have—the need they would have for substantiation of His commandments?

I believe that most of what Christ left to the Apostles is eluded to, at the very least, in the Scriptures, but certainly not everything is explicit.

An issue with which we both agree!

The Church received explicit teachings and upholds them to this day.

Upon what do you base this belief?

The scriptures record truths that were already set forth, some explict, most implicit

I agree to the extent that I believe Scriptures recorded truths delivered by Christ. Here’s my theory, we actually agree more that I acknowledged above. I think the Gospels record what Jesus taught during His ministry. The books following them do as you stated address the issues which were not so clear, issues with which the churches were struggling. These books elaborate on issues.

But, I don’t think any genuinely honest Sola Scripturist would argue or assert that Scripture is explicit on all doctrinal issues. Certainly, some issues are pretty simple and clear, and others are not. What is argued is that all that is necessary, all that we need to know concerning salvation is contained in there. Because it is not explicit, most lay Christians need instruction. That’s why the ministry was established.

therefore, cannot be used as a set of explicit instructions,

I agree to the extent it would be like having science class, the teacher passes out the text books and gives absolutely no instruction or teaching on the subject. Some people would figure it out pretty easily on their own—very few. Some would figure it out with some difficulty, and others wouldn’t have a clue where to begin.

although many people do use them as such, including personalizing the original meaning/context, the fruit of which, is made evident in the thousands of churches today.

I think that’s a false presumption/accusation at most, and at the very least it’s a very rare occurrence. Nobody belongs to any faith/denomination (unless they were born and raised in a particular church and just never questioned the legitimacy of it) without at some point have employed personal discernment and interpretation.

You raise an interesting point. If what you say is correct about the scriptures being similar to that of an autobiography/history book and not leaving out anything significant, then certainly, by reading a biography of, let's say, George Washington's life, one can duplicate his life, in exact detail, to the original. Was everything explicitly recorded to make this scenario true?

I disagree with your assertion. I don’t think the logical conclusion to my point about insignificant parts leads to being able to duplicate someone’s life in exact detail. The only way to duplicate anything in exact detail, could only be done if it is recorded in exact detail.
 
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Asinner

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The writers instructed who on issues with which who struggled? Were they writing to clarify to themselves particular issues? If this is the case, how do you explain the four Gospels? You have four stories that are basically the same, tell basically the same tale, but only from different points of view. What would be the reason for such redundancy, if limited space was an issue? Why would God have chosen to take up four chapters of such an important book by repeating the same story if other issues of importance were going to have to be left out? How did He determine what would or wouldn’t be left out?


I was referring more to the epistles, but forgot to mention that. :sorry:


I agree to the extent it would be like having science class, the teacher passes out the text books and gives absolutely no instruction or teaching on the subject. Some people would figure it out pretty easily on their own—very few. Some would figure it out with some difficulty, and others wouldn’t have a clue where to begin.
Good analogy. :)







The only way to duplicate anything in exact detail, could only be done if it is recorded in exact detail.
Yes. Teachings were given to the Apostles in detail and these details get lost when using only scripture.

Love,
Christina
 
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Athaliamum

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I don't know how any of you found this to be a proof for the Catholic Church! A scripiture without a context becomes a pretext. A pretext can be used to prove anything!

Context:

"I hope to visit you soon; but I am writing these things so that if I am delayed you may know how one should behave in the household of God which is the (as it says in greek) the Messianic Community of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

1. This passage lets us know that the book of Timothy will help us understand how to be a member of God's household.

2. The household is the Messianic (Jesus believer's) community, not church.

3. Vs 16 goes on to state what is needed to be this community - "....truth underlying our faith: He was manifested physically and proved righteous spiritually, seen by angels and proclaimed among the nations, trusted throughout the world and raised up in glory to heaven".

I pretty sure that this is the truth of everyone with a faith icon on this website, it is not monopolised alone by the Catholic Church.
 
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Oblio

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(as it says in greek) the Messianic Community

What does it say in Greek ?

Does it say 'community of the Annointed' ? Is a variant of Christos used in describing the community? No, the term used is Ekklesia, you are changing the Greek to fit your preconcieved beliefs.
 
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Athaliamum

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The whole point of this passage is to give us doctrine of how the household of God is to act - it doesn't give denomination does it. Therefore how can people seperate it and say that it is talking only about the Catholic Church - they can't, it is an unsupported position to say so of this verse.
 
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racer

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I was referring more to the epistles, but forgot to mention that.


Oh . . . okay, but don't let it happen again. ;)


Good analogy.

Thank you! :angel:


Yes. Teachings were given to the Apostles in detail and these details get lost when using only scripture.

How would you substantiate this assertion? :confused:
 
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Asinner

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Asinner said:
Yes. Teachings were given to the Apostles in detail and these details get lost when using only scripture.




[/font]

How would you substantiate this assertion? :confused:

We've discussed this before. The practice of baptism substantiates this. The Didache as well as Tradition, includes aspects to baptism that scripture lacks.

Love,
Christina
 
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ThisRock

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:clap: Who would have thunk it?!?

That when Paul wrote...


"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth."

...what he really was doing was plugging for Sola Scriptura 300 years before the bible!:help:

The argument basically is:
"Forget what Paul meant and what he was referring to in the letter. The only truth that we can count on is the bible."

Racer, you have a basic misunderstanding and even a mistrust of christianity.

The bible is not, has never been, and never will be the only source of revelation and guidance for christians.
Reading the bible will tell you that scripture nowhere claims to be the sole source of guidance for jews or christians and directly tells us otherwise.

The bible is a product of the church. A divinely inspired product, but a product nevertheless.

The Holy Spirit inspired certain authors to write what God wished to reveal to humanity and later guided the bishops of the church to determine which writings out of the 50 gospels and 500 "letters" and "Acts" were to be considered scripture. The Holy Spirit also led the church leaders to interpret and teach Old Testament scripture, oral apostolic teaching and (later) what became the New Testament. The church taught, developed and passed down ways of worship, prayer and church life not explicitly laid out in scripture.

Did Paul write:
"Scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth." ????:scratch:

or did he write:
"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth." ???:doh:
 
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Montanaman

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:clap: Who would have thunk it?!?

That when Paul wrote...


"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth."

...what he really was doing was plugging for Sola Scriptura 300 years before the bible!:help:

The argument basically is:
"Forget what Paul meant and what he was referring to in the letter. The only truth that we can count on is the bible."

Racer, you have a basic misunderstanding and even a mistrust of christianity.

The bible is not, has never been, and never will be the only source of revelation and guidance for christians.
Reading the bible will tell you that scripture nowhere claims to be the sole source of guidance for jews or christians and directly tells us otherwise.

The bible is a product of the church. A divinely inspired product, but a product nevertheless.

The Holy Spirit inspired certain authors to write what God wished to reveal to humanity and later guided the bishops of the church to determine which writings out of the 50 gospels and 500 "letters" and "Acts" were to be considered scripture. The Holy Spirit also led the church leaders to interpret and teach Old Testament scripture, oral apostolic teaching and (later) what became the New Testament. The church taught, developed and passed down ways of worship, prayer and church life not explicitly laid out in scripture.

Did Paul write:
"Scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth." ????:scratch:

or did he write:
"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth." ???:doh:

And if, as many will claim, that the "Church" really means the loose assembly of true believers, how does the fractured band of churches constitute truth? Seems like a pretty random pillar if you can't even rely on it to give you the final teaching on anything.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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:clap: Who would have thunk it?!?

That when Paul wrote...


"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth."

...what he really was doing was plugging for Sola Scriptura 300 years before the bible!:help:



Scripture existed centuries before the Roman Catholic denomination. The OT speaks of Scriptures. Jesus quotes and refers to the Scriptures some 50 times - all BEFORE Pentecost and centuries before there is any clearly identifialbe Roman Catholic denomination.


It is true that the Catholic Church did not officially acknowledge the NT until the mid to late 4th century (all denominations have acknowledged the NT Canon in similar fashion).



The bible is not, has never been, and never will be the only source of revelation and guidance for christians.
Reading the bible will tell you that scripture nowhere claims to be the sole source of guidance for jews or christians and directly tells us otherwise.

This much I know: Jesus referred to God's Holy Scriptures over 50 times - authoritatively and normatively. So did Peter, Paul, John, James. They NEVER ONCE refered to the Roman Catholic denomination, the Bishop of Rome, sucessors to the bishop of Rome 2,000 years later, the "vicar of Christ," the Infallible Pope. Not once. Kinda says something, I think...



The bible is a product of the church. A divinely inspired product, but a product nevertheless.


NO denomination ever wrote a single letter of God's Holy Spriptures. Not a single letter of it. And certainly not the Roman Catholic denomination. Here's what my textbook for my Catholic membership class states (perhaps you disagree, however): "The Bible is the Word of God and no greater assurance of credibility could be given." "The books which make up the Bible are, both as a whole and each separately, inspired by God. What exactly does this mean? It means that God himself is the author of these books. God used the penmen to write as He wished and guided them to do so without error." That's what I was taught by my Catholic priest - and I completely agree. NOTHING THERE about any writing or inspiring by the Roman Catholic denomination (or any other).



The Holy Spirit inspired certain authors to write what God wished to reveal to humanity and later guided the bishops of the church to determine which writings out of the 50 gospels and 500 "letters" and "Acts" were to be considered scripture.


My Catholic priest strongly disagrees. So does history. The development of the NT canon was a very slow, evolutionary and "grass roots" process. Clearly 18-20 of the books were embraced as Canonical before the RC denomination ever even existed (if such can be determined). NO denomination was even remotely involved in this until after the fact, after the issue had been largely resolved. As my priest taught: The Church did not create the Canon - it acknowledged it. That seems to be confirmed by history, as well. That Canon has not only been acknowledged by the RC denomination, but by the Orthodox and by Protestants as well - also in church meetings.



or did he write:
"The church is the pillar and foundation of truth." ???:doh:


Yup.

Did he write, "The Catholic Church?" "The Infallible Roman Pontiff?" "An institutional denomination?" Nope. He said "church." The verse does not contain the words, "Roman" "Catholic" "Denomination" "Institution" "Pope" "Pontiff" Nope.



My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.
 
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willard3

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But likewise, nowhere did He say "Protestant", "Luther", or "Calvin."

Has it occurred to anybody else that maybe God didn't reveal everything in the Bible? There has to be some mystery to Him, otherwise we could claim to know everything about God, which is incredibly prideful and sinful.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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But likewise, nowhere did He say "Protestant", "Luther", or "Calvin."


EXACTLY!!!!!!!

Has it occurred to anybody else that maybe God didn't reveal everything in the Bible? There has to be some mystery to Him, otherwise we could claim to know everything about God, which is incredibly prideful and sinful.


Amen!!!
Adveristment: Check out my thread: "Humility and Theology" here in GT - it's no doubt buried deep now...


Yes, it certainly IS theoretically possible that Joseph Smith was 100% correct and lots of dogmas are missing from the Bible. But, frankly, I'd rather base my dogmas on what we know God said than what some denomination says God said, I'd rather run with God's infallible, apostolic, authoritative, first-century, DIVINELY-inspired Word - written so that it's alterable by none and knowable by all. Cuz anyone can claim anything (and lots do). But that's just me.
 
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epistemaniac

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this rock... you are the one engaging in eisiogesis.... it is the unfounded presupposition of the Greek and the Roman who, when they read "tradition", who then pours into that word "Roman tradition" or "Greek tradition".... however, there is no difference between tradition and scripture.... tradition is that which was handed down through the apostles and was written for our edification… tradition cannot bear the weight of that which Rome or the Greek wish to make it bear.… it was never suited to that purpose, and the proliferation of unbiblical traditions that has resulted from the attempt to pour too much into that word is evidence of this fact.


"Jesus does build the Church upon — well, should we say Peter because that sounds personal! It can’t be Peter as a person — and how do you know that? Because if you read on in just a few verses Jesus calls Peter ‘Satan’! He says, “Get thee behind Me Satan!” So if Roman Catholics want to interpret that passage as referring Peter personally, and they’re going to take the whole paragraph into account where Jesus later calls Peter ‘Satan’, then I guess we’re left with the conclusion that the Church is built upon the foundation of Satan! Now that isn’t going to work either.

Well then, what is ‘the Rock’ upon which the Church is built? Well, I think it’s (1) important that you realize that Peter was speaking for all of the Apostles. This wasn’t just one man’s opinion! Jesus said, “But who do you (plural) say that I am? Not, “Who do you (singular, Peter) say that I am?” And Peter now speaks for the you plural and gives the answer, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God!” As Peter represents the confessing Apostles, Jesus builds His Church upon Peter and the others. But Peter, as a person, can just as much be Satan when he departs from the Word of God, and later receives the rebuke from Jesus! And so Jesus builds His Church upon the confessing Apostles. I think that support for that interpretation will be found in Ephesians 2:20 where Paul says (speaking of the household of God) that it’s built upon “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone.” (ASV) There’s a sense in which the Church then is built upon the foundation of the Apostles as they confess Christ truly and faithfully... as they bring the Word of God... as they are the authorized spokesmen for Jesus, then they provide the foundation for the Church.

And now this teaching of the Apostles was received as a body of truth which was a criteria for doctrine and for life in the Church of Jesus Christ. The teaching of the Apostles was received as a body of truth that was the standard for doctrine and for life. To make my point here, let me just refer to what the Apostles had as the truth. Now this truth comes from God (we’ve already seen that it’s a revelation of the Father and the Son and the power of the Spirit) — this truth from God (I’m saying) was the standard for doctrine and life in the early days of the Church.

I don’t think anyone has any problem with that, at this point. But the question is: how did the Church come to know this Truth? How did the Church, in its earliest days, learn of the apostolic truth from God? How did they come into contact with this body of dogma that the Apostles had every right and authority to communicate to God’s people? Well, we know that the body of truth was ‘passed down’ to the Church and through the Church. And because it was ‘passed down’ from the Apostles, it was often called “that which was delivered” or “the deposit”.

See, the truth gets ‘passed down’ to the Church! And because it’s “passed down” or “handed over” — the Greek word paradosis is used which means “to hand over” — it can be translated “the deposit,” “that which is given by hand,” that which is communicated from one person to another. And that is translated into English often as “the tradition,” that which is entrusted, that which is deposited, that which is delivered. Or as I’ve said, handed over or committed to another, the tradition. The Apostles have the truth from God and they hand it over to the Church. They deliver it to the Church. And that comes to be called the ‘tradition’! The ‘tradition’ is just the truth that the Apostles teach as a revelation from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Now what does the New Testament tell us about this ‘tradition’? Let’s look at a few verses together here for a few moments. Turn in your Bibles please to II Timothy 1:13 and 14. II Timothy 1:13, Paul says, “Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.” (ASV) Here Paul speaks of the ‘deposit’ — that which has been committed unto him — the ‘deposit’ that he has received, he passes on and he says is to be guarded! The Apostolic ‘deposit’ then is the pattern of sound words for the Church. Notice that? “Hold the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee” — that ‘deposit’, that ‘pattern of sound words’ that is the system of doctrine (‘pattern of sound words’), that system or network of healthy truth and teaching, the ‘pattern of sound words’, is the Apostolic deposit.

In I Timothy 6:20-21, we learn that this is to be guarded: “O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called; which some professing have erred concerning the faith.” (ASV) The pattern of sound words, the deposit of the Apostles, is to be guarded. People put their faith in jeopardy when they do not! Timothy is warned by Paul that some people professing to know the truth have erred concerning the faith because they haven’t guarded the Apostolic deposit.

Indeed, the Apostolic deposit, “the pattern of sound words,” passed to the Church by the Apostles was the standard for Christian life — look at II Thessalonians 3:6 — “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us.” (ASV) Here the English word ‘tradition’ is used — “that which was delivered from us and you received” — if any brother departs from that, then you’re to withdraw yourselves from him! That is the standard for Christian living: “the pattern of sound words” delivered by the Apostles to the Church and received by the Church.

Look at II Peter 2:21, “For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” To turn away from that which has been delivered by the Apostles is a horrible thing to do! It’d be better that you never knew the truth than you should reject it after the Apostolic deposit has been received.

And moreover this ‘pattern of sound words’ which is to be guarded as the standard for Christian living is to be the standard for all future teaching in the Church — II Timothy 2:2, “And the things which thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” The Apostles have a truth (a body of truth, a ‘pattern of sound words’) received from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit — they pass it on to the Church. And the Church is to guard that Apostolic pattern of sound words — they are to mark off as heretics those who depart from it! They are to use that as the standard for all future teachers in the Church.

What is this tradition? Is it the holy tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Is it the tradition of the popes in the Roman Catholic Church? No, it is the Apostolic tradition that truth which they have received from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! Can you not see that? It should be obvious in the reading of Scripture unless you go to the Bible trying to make it prove some preconceived idea! That tradition, the deposit, that which is handed over or delivered is not Church tradition, papal tradition — it’s rather the pattern of sound words taught by the Apostles. And they teach that on the basis of revelation from God the Father.

Now, we have to ask the next question. We know what the truth is (it’s the deposit). We know why it’s called tradition (because it’s ‘passed on’ to the Church and through the Church). Now the question is: how was it passed? In what form was it passed to the Church? And to answer that let’s turn in our Bibles to II Thessalonians 2:15. Paul says, “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.” Paul says, “Stand fast in the traditions,” that is, what the Apostles have delivered, handed over to the Church! Stand fast by that pattern of sound words, the truth, the deposit that they have from God to give to God’s people. Stand fast by it! And how did the Church learn about this deposit? How did the Apostles hand it over or deliver it? Well, Paul tells us right here. They did it not only by word but by epistle, by letter, by writing (if you will). “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.”

And so what I want to say is the truth was passed to the Church orally and in writing. In two ways that same deposit (or pattern of sound words) came to the Church. Is there any hint at all in this verse that what Paul means is part of the tradition came orally and part of the tradition came in writing — so make sure you keep the two of them together so you get everything? Is there any hint of that? It’s just the traditions; it’s just the deposit; it’s just the pattern of sound words that is communicated in two different ways! Paul doesn’t suggest that one or the other supplement the opposite. He simply says guard the traditions — and you received them in writing and you received them orally!

Now why am I stressing this point? Because, you see, Roman Catholics maintain that if you only keep to the Written Apostolic Tradition, you haven’t got the whole Word of God! You’ve got to have the Oral Apostolic Tradition as well. Well, there’s just a huge logical fallacy involved in that thinking! Because Paul doesn’t say, “Make sure you hold on to the oral traditions and to the written traditions,” does he? He says, “Hold fast to the traditions whether you heard them orally or in writing.” Can you see the difference there? Do you have one thing that comes to the Church in two ways? Or do you have two things that come to the Church?

If I might schematize the two different positions here, and what I have been arguing is that Paul says the Apostolic traditions are the pattern of sound words that govern the Church. And the Church, in that day, learned of them both orally and in writing, because there’s no suggestion when Paul says that there’s an oral aspect to the teaching and a written aspect, and you’ve got to make sure you keep the two together. And I’m emphasizing this because this is the favorite verse of contemporary Roman Catholic apologists where they try to prove that God’s people today must have oral tradition as well, because it says right here that you’re to hold fast to those traditions whether by word or epistle of ours.
And the answer to that, first of all, is that if you have it in either form you’ve got the ‘pattern of sound words’. But more than that, why is it that the truth could be passed through the Church orally and that would be binding on the Church? It’s because the one who was speaking this word had Apostolic authority! Remember Jesus said, “He who receives you receives Me!” So when the Apostles went to various congregations and taught, that was to be received as the very Word of Jesus Christ Himself. When the Apostles speak the Word of Christ, then that binds the Church....

Now when contemporary Roman Catholic apologists look at II Thessalonians 2:15 and say, “We’re bound to follow the traditions, oral as well as written,” my response to that is not only are oral and written two different ways of saying the same thing; but my response to that is simply, I’m under obligation to listen to the oral teaching of the Apostles; you’re absolutely right, and they’re not around any more! And you know, catch up with what’s happening in the Church, friend — we don’t have Apostles today! Where do you get the idea — even on your misreading of this verse — where do you get the idea that the authority of the Apostles in oral instruction has passed on to other people?....

In I Corinthians 4:6, we have what amounts to a virtual declaration of the Protestant doctrine or principle of Sola Scriptura! I Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, “Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” ( Greg Bahsen; Is Sola Scriptura a Protestant Concoction? A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura)



blessings,
Ken
 
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racer

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Asinner said:
We've discussed this before. The practice of baptism substantiates this. The Didache as well as Tradition, includes aspects to baptism that scripture lacks.

I had to go back and reread your statement which I was questioning to remind myself of my point. Anyhow, you said:

Yes. Teachings were given to the Apostles in detail and these details get lost when using only scripture

I guess I would make a couple of points; 1) referencing your “baptism” example. This practice has not been lost, maybe altered or changed to certain degrees, but not lost. 2) You can’t substantiate that claim because we have always had a teaching authority. Nobody has had to rely on Scripture alone without teaching and explanation.

Now, as far as you referring to the Didache as evidence for this, do you assert that it’s explanations of baptism are more explicit than Scripture? Here’s where it addresses baptism:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
Maybe just a little, but it still doesn’t mention “dunking.”

Now, the point I’ve made in the past, the “practices” you identify as “T”radition, are the practices that fall under the category of “t”radition for us. Sola Scripturist do acknowledge that there are practices and customs that Christianity employs which are not explicitly identified in Scripture. Some things may not be addressed, for example use of musical instruments during worship services.
 
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Asinner

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I guess I would make a couple of points; 1) referencing your “baptism” example. This practice has not been lost, maybe altered or changed to certain degrees, but not lost. 2) You can’t substantiate that claim because we have always had a teaching authority. Nobody has had to rely on Scripture alone without teaching and explanation.

The practice has not been lost, but details of it have.

Now, as far as you referring to the Didache as evidence for this, do you assert that it’s explanations of baptism are more explicit than Scripture? Here’s where it addresses baptism:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
Maybe just a little, but it still doesn’t mention “dunking.”

Now, the point I’ve made in the past, the “practices” you identify as “T”radition, are the practices that fall under the category of “t”radition for us. Sola Scripturist do acknowledge that there are practices and customs that Christianity employs which are not explicitly identified in Scripture. Some things may not be addressed, for example use of musical instruments during worship services.

Infant baptism is implicitly stated, yet many Christians today practice believer's baptism. That is another example of an important detail that can be lost using only scripture. There are more, but I'll stick to using one at a time for my own sanity.:sorry:

Love,
Christina
 
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