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What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

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BrightCandle

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Is it possible to believe that Jesus founded a Church to mislead the world, on the Lords day and then after 1500 years approved of over 500 contradictory churches including the one founded by Ellen White.


Yes, it is quite possible, in fact it is biblical. Paul said that the "mystery of iniquity" was already at work in his time, the first century. The primitive Christians of the first century kept the 7th day Sabbath when Jesus was alive, when Jesus was dead in the grave, and after he resurrected from the tomb, and continued to keep the 7th day Sabbath for many centuries throughout Christendom, and only until Rome's power gradually triumphed in exalting the 1st day sabbath did 7th day Sabbath become rare but not non-existent.


BTW, EGW did not originate 7th day Sabbath keeping, there many Christians groups scattered all over the world who have consistently kept the 7th day Sabbath since the 1st century. Do a little research on the history of the 7th day Sabbath, you will see for yourself.

Note, the article below from the Catholic Encyclopedia. In particular the last paragraph, where it in no uncertain terms states the binding nature of God's Holy Law. It would seem that your view of the God's law is not in line with the RCC's view.

Catholic Encyclopedia

The Ten Commandments

Called also simply THE COMMANDMENTS, COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, or THE DECALOGUE (Gr. deka, ten, and logos, a word), the Ten Words of Sayings, the latter name generally applied by the Greek Fathers.

The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator's will in relation to man's whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but are given in an abridged form in the catechisms. Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai, and by him made the ground-work of the Mosaic Law. Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity--love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5). He also simplified or interpreted them, e.g. by declaring unnecessary oaths equally unlawful with false, by condemning hatred and calumny as well as murder, by enjoining even love of enemies, and by condemning indulgence of evil desires as fraught with the same malice as adultery (Matthew 5). The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.

There is no numerical division of the Commandments in the Books of Moses, but the injunctions are distinctly tenfold, and are found almost identical in both sources. The order, too, is the same except for the final prohibitions pronounced against concupiscence, that of Deuteronomy being adopted in preference to Exodus. A confusion, however, exists in the numbering, which is due to a difference of opinion concerning the initial precept on Divine worship.

The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of "Questions of Exodus" ("Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII", Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against -- the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord's Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence--the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods.

Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus, Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division. It seems, however, as logical to separate at the end as to group at the beginning, for while one single object is aimed at under worship, two specifically different sins are forbidden under covetousness; if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these evils.

The Supreme Law-Giver begins by proclaiming His Name and His Titles to the obedience of the creature man: "I am the Lord, thy God. . ." The laws which follow have regard to God and His representatives on earth (first four) and to our fellow-man (last six).

* Being the one true God, He alone is to be adored, and all rendering to creatures of the worship which belongs to Him falls under the ban of His displeasure; the making of "graven things" is condemned: not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served (First).
* Associated with God in the minds of men and representing Him, is His Holy Name, which by the Second Commandment is declared worthy of all veneration and respect and its profanation reprobated.
* And He claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy (Third).
* Finally, parents being the natural providence of their offspring, invested with authority for their guidance and correction, and holding the place of God before them, the child is bidden to honour and respect them as His lawful representatives (Fourth).

The precepts which follow are meant to protect man in his natural rights against the injustice of his fellows.

* His life is the object of the Fifth;
* the honour of his body as well as the source of life, of the Sixth;
* his lawful possessions, of the Seventh;
* his good name, of the Eighth;
* And in order to make him still more secure in the enjoyment of his rights, it is declared an offense against God to desire to wrong him, in his family rights by the Ninth;
* and in his property rights by the Tenth.

This legislation expresses not only the Maker's positive will, but the voice of nature as well--the laws which govern our being and are written more or less clearly in every human heart. The necessity of the written law is explained by the obscuring of the unwritten in men's souls by sin. These Divine mandates are regarded as binding on every human creature, and their violation, with sufficient reflection and consent of the will, if the matter be grave, is considered a grievous or mortal offense against God. They have always been esteemed as the most precious rules of life and are the basis of all Christian legislation.
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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The reason that most Christians believe that Joseph and Mary never had sex is not because sex is inherently evil but because of holiness of God.

In the OT, no one was allowed to touch the Ark of Covenant. In fact, once a man did touch it, and he immediately died. The Ark was holy. It contained the Ten Commandments. Sinful man was not allowed to touch it.

If the Ark was holy for merely containing the Ten Commandments, how much more would Mary be holy for containing the very Word of God, Jesus. Just as no sinful man could touch the Ark, non sinful man could touch Mary. It is not because what she is in herself, it is because of Whom she bore. Moses's face glowed after seeing God. It glowed so much that he had to wear a veil on his face afterward. If experiencing the vision of God can be so awesome that your face would glow afterward so much that no one could bear to look at you, imagine the experience of a woman bearing God! If no one could look at Moses after he saw God, how much more could no one ever touch Mary after she gave birth to God!

In the OT, when an object is once holy for God's use, it forvever remains holy. I believe this is why no one know where the Ark of Covenant is now, so it cannot be descrated by man. Even though Ark of Covenant is no longer used, it should still be considered holy. In the same way, the awesome bearing of the Holy One in her womb made Mary forever holy even after she gave birth.


I have been a Protestant and a Catholic. As a Catholic I have a greater vision of the holiness of God, especially in meditating on the Marian doctrine. As a Catholic, we believe that God is so holy that He could not bear to be in the presence of sin, which is why He could not bear to be in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months, thus the need for Mary to be be sinless. We also believe that bearing the Holy God is such an awesome experience for Mary that this forever made her to be holy herself, and so no mere sinful man would be able to touch her.


So it come down to this. How holy do you see God? If you have a high view of the holiness of God, you would not have a problem with the woman God chose to give birth to Him. If you have a low view of God, you will have a low view of His mother.


Kudos for this most Wonderful post. Your insight is especially poignant because you bring knowledge from a Protestant background.
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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Is it possible to believe that Jesus founded a Church to mislead the world, on the Lords day and then after 1500 years approved of over 500 contradictory churches.

Particularly when one keeps in mind that Jesus said He would be with it until the end of time. If He had, then He would have had to lie, which is not possible.


 
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racer

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That is incorrect, they didn't have any intimate sexual relationship. And, as a matter of fact 3/4 of all Christians know that they didn't have any intimate sexual relationships. It is you who keep insisting that they did, it is your obsession that they had sex, Which is not even the topic of this thread. So please, drop it and address the topic of the thread.

You "know" nothing of the sort. That's what you "believe." There's a big difference there. BIG difference-----really big difference . . . . . . . :doh:
 
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racer

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[Trento]Is it possible to believe that Jesus founded a Church to mislead the world, on the Lords day and then after 1500 years approved of over 500 contradictory churches including the one founded by Ellen White.[/quote]

Okay, according to this logic, why would he allow such an organization to be lead by corrupt men?
 
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Trento

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[Trento]Is it possible to believe that Jesus founded a Church to mislead the world, on the Lords day and then after 1500 years approved of over 500 contradictory churches including the one founded by Ellen White.

Okay, according to this logic, why would he allow such an organization to be lead by corrupt men?[/quote]



The Catholic Church claims that its teaching is infallible, but it does not claim that its people are not indefectible. Even Jesus chose a bad disciple.What is really amazing regarding the bad popes is that they stayed silent of issues of faith and morals. They could have defined all kinds of crazy doctrines in the name of their teaching authority, but they didn't. Catholics think this is a testimony in favour of the Papacy part of God's infallibility promise.
Jesus predicted scandals would come --

Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 1
loveit.gif


And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1
Here Christ Himself did not say the Church is the source, or the cause of the scandals but individual men.

So Sinners in the Church is Bibical.
The Bible clearly teaches that the Church is comprised of both saints and sinners, good and bad. We see this indisputably in several parables of Jesus about the kingdom of heaven (that is, the Church), such as the wheat and the weeds , where Jesus says that they will grow together until the final Judgment, or harvest time (Matthew 13:24-30; cf. Matthew 3:12). He compares the Church to a fishnet which draws good and bad fish, ultimately separated (Matthew 13:47-50), and a marriage banquet, from which one guest was cast out into the outer darkness (Matthew 22:1-14). This parable ends with the famous phrase, Many are called, but few are chosen, which may be interpreted as the distinction between lukewarm, or dead, or nominal Christians and the actual elect who will be saved in the end. Both are present in the Church, according to Jesus.
Now in denominationalism's reasonable grounds for forming a new sect is the desire to separate from sinners and sin, which may be infecting the group left (Example Luther) which is not Bibical


 
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