Question about Heaven and Hell

[BridgeBuilder]

Recently I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical "Fundamentalist" Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family. You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear daughter or sister in hell. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their daughter or sister (when he "wipes their tears away"), thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? I happen to be a mother too, and having a child has changed who I am in profound ways. If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, in a sense, all of my loved ones end up there with me, at least in spirit. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

 

[seajoy]

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

You're basing your whole belief on heaven and hell upon this premise?

Open your bible...Satan is the father of lies, and he's told you a big one here. Your choice to not believe in Jesus is your own. Why should your sister and mom worry about something you decided was right for you.

They will be in heaven, in total bliss, in Jesus' loving arms. Would you want your family to worry over you on a choice you made? Remember, you would have had your whole life on earth to believe in Jesus...it's His gift to you.

seajoy

 

[Cyprian31]

How's this.:

God IS love, pure and simple. Now, what if, at the last judgment, there was, say, a river of that pure love? And what if, say, that river was symbolically depicted as a river of fire?

Here's my point : those who have rejected God's love will experience a burning : a burning of love they cannot stand. This is satan's torment - since cutting himself off from Love itself, it is a torture to him. God's love is acceptable to those who have accepted Him. It's not the "stern dicsiplinarian" type, but the loving Father who wants all to know His salvation.

"But what about the weeping and gnashing of teeth?" you say. "And those worms that don't die?" Simple. Cut off from Love, there is only grief and heartache...forever. It's a choice, but one that saddens the Father.

The worms are bit trickier. Christ, as He often did, used analogies His followers could understand. And to understand THAT, you need to know 1st century sanitation habits. Outside of Jerusalem was a place claaed Gehenna. It was pretty much a refuse dump. where all the garbage and all that was considered unclean went. The keep it from completely engulfing Jerusalem, it was set on a perpetual fire. And, in the sections tht WEREN'T burning, worms, maggots and other unsavoury critters lurked. Christ was trying to get a point across. God is Love, and separating oneself from that love is pure hell.

If I've gotten anything wrong, blame me. Whatever I got right, credit my teachers. As always, forgive me if I've offended.

God bless.

 

[FrAnthony]

How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

Complicated question, because it's based on a false understanding of a false teaching. The doctrine of "eternal security" is a recent innovation intended to, in my opinion, fill seats in church. Unfortunately, this just tricks people into thinking salvation is simple/easy. It's not...but onto your question:

Being in heaven is not about being "happy" as we understand it "in the flesh", and, as far as any teaching I've heard, how they feel or react when they are "in heaven" is not dependent on whether or not their loved ones receive salvation themselves. If you choose to turn away from the path God laid out for us in Jesus Christ, then ultimately that's on you. In love, true love as God Loves all of us, He allows us to make choices even if they take us away from Him. Otherwise, it would be slavery.

Being "in heaven" is a divine (unknown) combination of being with God by your choice, your actions, His Love and His Grace. Being "in hell" is a divine combination of being removed from God by your choice, your actions, and His Love. The existence of "Heaven" or "Hell" is not dependant on your family being aware that you chose a path that lead to you being "in hell." If they are "in heaven", they'll understand and still love you...even if you are "in hell".

In Christ,
Fr. Anthony

PS. The quotes around "in heaven" and "in hell" are meant to emphasize that heaven and hell are not locations or places, but states of being, loving, and understanding

 

[BridgeBuilder]

If hell indeed is not a place of fire and brimstone and eternal torture, then it is easier to understand what you are saying. If hell is simply a state of being separated from God, that makes a lot more sense.

Some of these replies are very profound. Thank you for your insights. I actually posted this question on another Christian forum and didn't get any helpful responses at all. This must be an interesting place, with many thoughtful Christians.

BridgeBuilder

 

[dvd_holc]

the word Hell is mentioned 14 times in the New Testament. One of the greek words used to translated into Hell is the word Gehenna.

Gehenna that actual physical place:
Otherwise called "the valley of the son of Hinnom," or "the valley of Benhinnom"; a deep and narrow ravine with steep, rocky sides to the S and W of Jerusalem, separating Mt. Zion to the N from the "Hill of Evil Counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "valley of Rephaim" to the S. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in Josh 15:8; 18:16, where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity, Solomon erected high places for Molech (1 Kings 11:7), whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity by the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chron 28:3; 33:6), and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Topheth at its southeast extremity for a considerable period (Jer 7:31; 2 Kings 23:10). To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who rendered it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions (2 Kings 23:10,13-14; 2 Chron 34:3-5). From that time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which its sewage was conducted to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron, as well as a laystall, where all its solid filth was collected. From its ceremonial defilement and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed everburning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley Ge Hinnom, "Gehenna," to denote the place of eternal torment. The name by which it is now known is Wadi Jehennam, or Wadi er Rubeb. See Gehenna; Hell.

THE VALLEY OF HINNOM (GEHENNA)

http://www.bible-history.com/jerusalem/firstcenturyjerusalem_hinnom_valley.html

This place was an actual place in the physical world that had a physical fire to reduce the levels of waste and the dogs went around searching for food. When two dogs fought for bones and whatnot…there were times when their teeth would grind and a high pitch scream of the dogs. There was some much unclean stuff that the fire never went out in a physical reality.

The message is then, don’t become worthless so you don’t get thrown in there…be renewed in the image of Jesus so that you become a completed creation without seperation with God who full all people in the face of their oppostion.

 

[GladiusVeritas]

Actually your beliefs about God and hell are not contrary to the bible. People need to read the bible without preconceived ideas that have been preached for years. IF hell was eternal torment, why doesn't the bible reflect this in the teachings of Jesus, Peter, and Paul? (same with tithing, oooh, that's a touchy one!)
If hell is eternal torment, we should be out screaming on the street corners for everyone to hear! But we aren't , because deep down, nobody believes it!
The bible says that the wages of sin is DEATH. When you take hell as eternal torment out of the equation, all the questions about people dieing without hearing the gospel, kids and babies dieing without accepting Christ etc become a moot point.
I've heard Christians say that people that don't accept Jesus deserve hell, and they're happy about it. Those people do NOT have the love of God, and are sick and twisted. IF we are talking torture for EVER!!!
(We should never rejoice in the suffering of ANYONE!!!) God would not, and did not design a place like that, fully knowing that the majority of humanity would spend eternity there.
One of the main scripture for the basis of hell as eternal torment comes from Lazurus and the rich man. A PARABLE...not to be taken literally like any other parable.
I used to believe in hell, and no longer do. And I am happier and better for it. I no longer go out trying to bring someone to church, or get "another one for the scorecard", or tell people they are going to hell. I just go out and love them, be their friend with no hidden agenda, and let the love of Jesus shine through. Nobody brought into the kingdom through FEAR will last.
Tell your spouse this: Honey, I love you above all others, and I will give you all the desires of your heart. Love me and me only, or I will TORTURE YOU for all eternity!!! See where that gets you...you cannot love someone out of fear. Forgive the long post, but I am tired of manipulation and fear....perfect love casts out all fear.

 

[dvd_holc]

Luke 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

 

[seajoy]

Luke 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Excellent Scripture choice!

Take heed now, while there is still time.

Just thinking there isn't a hell, does not make it so. The bible does not lie...God tells us the truth so that we may enter heaven.

Yes, there is both a heaven, and a hell.

 

[BelindaP]

The Bible talks about the fires of hell being eternal, but it does not state that sinners will be there eternally. It is my belief that people will burn in hell until their sins are paid for, at which point they will be extinguished forever (the second death). This will not happen, of course, until those destined to hell see and acknowledge the error of their ways.

Those destined to heaven will see those destined to hell through God's eyes. Thus, they will not be grieved by loved ones going to hell.

The fires of hell will burn forever, because Satan and the angels that he took with him will burn forever.

 

[seajoy]

The Bible talks about the fires of hell being eternal, but it does not state that sinners will be there eternally. It is my belief that people will burn in hell until their sins are paid for, at which point they will be extinguished forever (the second death). This will not happen, of course, until those destined to hell see and acknowledge the error of their ways.

Those destined to heaven will see those destined to hell through God's eyes. Thus, they will not be grieved by loved ones going to hell.

The fires of hell will burn forever, because Satan and the angels that he took with him will burn forever.

Where are the verses to back up that unbelievers won't be in hell eternally?

Proverbs 11:7 When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes...

Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed man once to die, then the judgement...

Seeing and acknowledging the error of my ways would take about 2 seconds in hell.
We must hear the way of salvation, and believe it, while here on earth. There is no second chance.

Praise be to Jesus for suffering all for we who trust in Him!

 

[BelindaP]

I didn't say there was redemption from hell. Once you're there, you burn and then you die the second death. However, before that happens you will see the error of your ways. "...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..."

 

[revmalone]

Recently I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical "Fundamentalist" Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family. You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear daughter or sister in hell. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their daughter or sister (when he "wipes their tears away"), thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? I happen to be a mother too, and having a child has changed who I am in profound ways. If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, in a sense, all of my loved ones end up there with me, at least in spirit. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

Greetings
I'll address your family question, How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? You will be wiped out of there mind, so nobody will know any thing more about you, this is a grace God grants to us his children.

I'm sure some were, you've heard that, it's in Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Hell is not a test for Gods love, it's like a holding cell until you get to the Great White Throne Rev 20:11-15.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

So if you died today you'll have at least a 1000yrs plus to wait for the final judgement told about.
Rev 20:11-15;11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you believe in Death? yea, then you could agree that the Bible says that death is real. That would be a true statement right. Do you like to live wild and do all the things you like, when you like to do them?yea.

Anyone who lives like that are described in Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So if your living like that, your as lost as a blind dog at midnight, they'll forget about your if that is the way you want it. Spend all the time you can with your family, your friends, party hard this is all you get. But the more wicked you become the worse that Great White Judgement will be for you.

Do you even know the whole story about hell. I doubt it or you'd change your mind fast. I have heard of hundereds of people who died and went to hell but they were brought back and they didn't want to go back.

Your really trusting in your word which is not to old compaired to Gods word is it. If you step out onto the freeway, closed your eyes and said I do not believe in trucks would the truck vanish? no

Neither would hell.

If you'd like a better explaination about hell, tell me. Don't close your eyes because your going to be hit by God head on, and you'll lose.

Rev Malone

 

[Dasdream]

Greetings
I'll address your family question, How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? You will be wiped out of there mind, so nobody will know any thing more about you, this is a grace God grants to us his children.

I'm sure some were, you've heard that, it's in Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

that's what i was looking for.......enough said.

 

[seajoy]

"...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..."

This happens at the time of judgement. There is no second chance.

The sad part is that those who were unbelievers, and going to hell, will now know the truth, but it will be too late.

That's the true separation in hell. You know what you could have had if only you had trusted Jesus when you had the chance.

 

[seajoy]

Thanks RevMalone for reminding us of Rev. 21:4

 

[revmalone]

Thanks RevMalone for reminding us of Rev. 21:4

Greetings
your welcome, it's just sad that there throwing it all away.

God is merciful, and we need to pray for this fellow that God will show himself real to him and any other who doubt in him.

Peace to all in Jesus Christ
Rev Malone

 

[Key]

Ok, I am going to take a chance at this. Now first off, this is not my own belief I am explaining, because I do not view Hell as a Fire and Brimstone type deal, but that aside. I’ll do my best to explain this situation for you.

Recently I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical "Fundamentalist" Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family. You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

I mean no offence, but good luck with that, I hope that works out in some way. I do not share that belief, because Jesus himself said that there are three types, those that accept and follow, those that accept and fall away, and those that refuse. But if this works, I hope it does.

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

Heard this before, many times. Lets see what you have placed on the table.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist.

Yes, a painfully many times.

It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

Ok, I see what you have, lets see if there is more, I do not want to jump the gun here.

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear daughter or sister in hell. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their daughter or sister (when he "wipes their tears away"), thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? I happen to be a mother too, and having a child has changed who I am in profound ways. If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

Take this into your mind. I want you to see the love you have for your own child. A love so strong that you would give up Heaven itself for, if s/he was suffering. Think of that love, and focus in on it.

Now you stand before God, and after living a life of refusing Him, and denying him. God looks upon you, a sinner. One question comes from all this. God does not need to hear what good you have done, or what evils, he Knows this.

He has a special question for you.


“was the suffering and death of my Son not enough for you?”

Now you think of how much you claim to love your own child, and you know, to God, time is not a thing of value, his son, being nailed to that cross, might as well have been yesterday, Jesus crying to God, “Father, Father” as he suffered so you could have a place in his fathers home. Jesus suffered, Nails in his Writs and Feet, whipping, beatings, and ridicule, his blood flowed upon the ground freely, all for you. So at this final moment, you could come to Heaven.

And now, you stand before God, and have to provide this answer.

Hold that in your mind.

That is your answer.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

God let his only son, suffer, so that your time in Hell would begin. God made that Trade for you. He gave his Son, for your eternal Life.

When God places you before Him, and now have to tell him, That is Tell God Himself. That Jesus, Gods Son, was good enough for you.

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, in a sense, all of my loved ones end up there with me, at least in spirit. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

A friend of mine, that I had known all through High School, died just when I turned 18, we graduated together, and then when I came home from college break for Christmas I got the news he died. I was very said. I felt a great deal of pity and remorse at his death. I just lost a good friend.

I asked how he died, and I was told. “Well he liked to drink a lot and then go cruising around, and one night after having a quite a bit, he played chicken with a semi”

All my pity went away. Some how, I just could not bring myself to even feel the slightest bit of remorse eat his death anymore.

I believe that the people that End up in Hell, are viewed the same way by the people in Heaven.

“well, he lived a life of sin, and then told God to his face, that Jesus was not Good enough for him”

And we watch the pity for the “Poor Soul in Hell” just go away.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

Are we? Really?

We would let someone Kill our offspring, watch our child die, and then let other Mock their sacrifice? Even when the Sacrifice was for them.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

When a Parent, can not see the abhorrent disgust that would penetrate every fiber of a being who has just watched their own child die so that someone else could have a better life, and then watch as people not only refused it, but mocked it, insulted it, and when the moment comes, tell that parent. “Their Child was just not Good Enough for them”

I guess to that person, Hell will never make sense.

God Bless

Key

 

[BelindaP]

So, there will be no extra punishment for the grievous sinners? My version is very close to yours, except there is some burning before death, as each person has earned in their life.

 

[rocklife]

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

yeah, a loving God isn't going to torture people for billions and trillions of years in fire. many (unfortunately preachers too) have not studied hell fire prayerfully in context. the punishment for sin is death, not eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the price.

I recommend a preaching http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=667&x=12&y=20
and if you prefer to watch a preacher go over this information: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp go to the one called: Cities of Ash, watch, very good preaching of hell fires