i think i figured it out

[MrGoodBytes]

Whoa..... where in the bible does it explain about the elements?

Four elements, four letters in the name of God, four unbeatable axioms! Coincidence? I think not!

 

[AV1611VET]

Whoa..... where in the bible does it explain about the elements?

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]
• [bible]2 Peter 3:10-12[/bible]

 

[MrGoodBytes]

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]
• [bible]2 Peter 3:10-12[/bible]

The first quote says nothing at all about elements, the second mentions the word - twice. Color me underwhelmed.

 

[AV1611VET]

I suggest you go look up "omnipotence" somewhere.

What about it?

God said He wasn't going to drive them out all at once, but do it piecemeal style:

• [bible]Exodus 23:29[/bible]

 

[MrGoodBytes]

What about it?

God said He wasn't going to drive them out all at once, but do it piecemeal style:

• [bible]Exodus 23:29[/bible]

And he did so because of military equipment that became obsolete after the Iron Age. A deity not to be messed with, for sure.

 

[AV1611VET]

The first quote says nothing at all about elements, the second mentions the word - twice. Color me underwhelmed.

Let's connect the dots, okay?

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]

Now, let's insert Aristotle's teachings into the equation:

• Through faith, we understand that the universe was created ex nihilo, so that things which are seen were not made of earth, air, fire, and water.

 

[Split Rock]

Aristotle seriously stunted the growth of science for 2000 years by proposing that matter was made up of only 4 elements (despite the Bible saying otherwise), and while others disagreed with him, the scientific community prevailed.

Whoa..... where in the bible does it explain about the elements?

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]
• [bible]2 Peter 3:10-12[/bible]

Neither bible quote makes any claim concerning the number of "elements" or what they are. It is unclear what these passages are refering to with the term "elements." It only claims these "elements" will be melted, and that is clearly wrong, since many elements are non-metallic and do not melt.

 

[AV1611VET]

And he did so because of military equipment that became obsolete after the Iron Age. A deity not to be messed with, for sure.

As long as they kept their eyes on the Lord, He fought for them, but when they took their eyes off of the Lord, they couldn't do anything of importance militarily; and that was mainly due to the fact that their opponents had superior weaponry.

 

[Split Rock]

Let's connect the dots, okay?

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]

Now, let's insert Aristotle's teachings into the equation:

I guess if one can "connect the dots" and come up with whales, bulls, serpents, bears, etc. in the sky, you can do the same here. You can quote scripture to support any conjecture you want to.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Let's connect the dots, okay?

• [bible]Hebrews 11:3[/bible]

Now, let's insert Aristotle's teachings into the equation:

This is brilliant. "Let us now insert a random, prechristian philosopher into a vague bible quote, and all we have to do afterwards is squint really hard."

 

[djbcrawford]

Seems reasonably likely that this was the case.

However it is interesting to note that the Jewish/Christian God was so different to the others, who were really just bigger versions of the people who made them up and gave them fancy titles and powers.

If he lived. There's little to no evidence that he existed at all.

It's amazing how people who would believe in Julius Cesaer and Alexander the Great, suddenly find it so hard to believe Jesus existed.

There will probably always be someone who simply will not accept fact no matter how obviously correct it's shown to be. We can still hope though.

Facts have often been proved wrong and are often changed in light of new evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

Neither bible quote makes any claim concerning the number of "elements" or what they are.

So? What did you want Him to do? Give them a Periodic Chart? They wouldn't have understood it anyway. Do you have to show a Periodic Chart to a class if you're explaining to them how the physical universe is going to end?

It is unclear what these passages are refering to with the term "elements." It only claims these "elements" will be melted, and that is clearly wrong, since many elements are non-metallic and do not melt.

Unclear to whom? When the time comes, Jesus is going to relax His hold on the Strong Nuclear Force, and the protons are going to fly apart --- described in the Bible as "melting".

Remember this: the Scriptures describe scientific facts in the language of the observer, as well as in seed form, and are meant to be understood by children, as well as adults.

Can you picture going into a Sunday School classroom for little children and seeing a Periodic Chart on the wall?

 

[AV1611VET]

This is brilliant. "Let us now insert a random, prechristian philosopher into a vague bible quote, and all we have to do afterwards is squint really hard."

I did that for your benefit, to show how Aristotle stunted the growth of science, as well as show you how he violated Scripture with junk science.

Do you want to discuss this in a mature fashion, or just make silly remarks?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

However it is interesting to note that the Jewish/Christian God was so different to the others, who were really just bigger versions of the people who made them up and gave them fancy titles and powers.

Yes, like all those despicable pagan deities telling their followers to kill people left and right ...oh wait.

It's amazing how people who would believe in Julius Cesaer and Alexander the Great, suddenly find it so hard to believe Jesus existed.

While the existence of Jesus is IMHO, largely irrelevant to the debate, evidence for his existence is indeed rare. (though I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that around 30 AD, a self-proclaimed jewish prophet stepped on a few toes too many and got executed for high treason.)

 

[Split Rock]

So? What did you want Him to do? Give them a Periodic Chart? They wouldn't have understood it anyway. Do you have to show a Periodic Chart to a class if you're explaining to them how the physical universe is going to end?

You are the one that claimed that Aristotle went against biblical teachings by hypothesizing that there were four elements. You have not substantiated this claim with your bible quotes.

Unclear to whom? When the time comes, Jesus is going to relax His hold on the Strong Nuclear Force, and the protons are going to fly apart --- described in the Bible as "melting".

That is your interpretation, and it is really stretching what the bible says.

Remember this: the Scriptures describe scientific facts in the language of the observer, as well as in seed form, and are meant to be understood by children, as well as adults.

Remember this: The Old Testament was created by Bronze Age goat-herders who knew nothing about the elements.

Can you picture going into a Sunday School classroom for little children and seeing a Periodic Chart on the wall?

A classroom for Bronze Age Hebrew scholars wouldn't have such a chart either.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

So? What did you want Him to do? Give them a Periodic Chart?

If He meant to teach the properties of elements, yes.

They wouldn't have understood it anyway.

You were the one claiming that people were more intelligent in the past.

Unclear to whom? When the time comes, Jesus is going to relax His hold on the Strong Nuclear Force, and the protons are going to fly apart --- described in the Bible as "melting".

Oh, I'd love to see the Bible passage supporting this. On second thought, I don't.

 

[Skaloop]

However it is interesting to note that the Jewish/Christian God was so different to the others,

Unique does not equal real. No doubt that the novelty helped with its popularity, but that has no relevence to its veracity.

who were really just bigger versions of the people who made them up and gave them fancy titles and powers.

That describes God as much as it does any of those "other" gods.

It's amazing how people who would believe in Julius Cesaer and Alexander the Great, suddenly find it so hard to believe Jesus existed.

Two of those have multiple independent sources of corroborating evidence that they existed. One has only the Bible.

Facts have often been proved wrong and are often changed in light of new evidence.

The Bible has often been proved wrong and its interpretation is often changed in light of new evidence. The difference is that in the case of the scientific facts supporting evolution/going against ID, new evidence strongly supports and further refines our knowledge. The Bible, in light of new evidence, just keeps getting wronger and wronger.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

I did that for your benefit, to show how Aristotle stunted the growth of science, as well as show you how he violated Scripture with junk science.

I don't get it. At first, you claimed that the bible explains the elements. As evidence for this claim, you presented a quote that didn't even mention the word "element", let alone a scientfic explanation.

Then, you inserted Aristotle into said quote, apparently to show how he "violated scripture". Where is the biblical explanation of elements?

Do you want to discuss this in a mature fashion, or just make silly remarks?

I apologize if my remarks weren't constructive, but this debate is moving on a level of, uh, abstractness that makes it hard to stay focused.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Unclear to whom? When the time comes, Jesus is going to relax His hold on the Strong Nuclear Force, and the protons are going to fly apart --- described in the Bible as "melting".

Ah, yes, the well known Jesuon, carrier of the strong nuclear force. It all makes sense!
You have no evidence that your messiah is in direct control of the strength of the strong nuclear force. Hell, you have no evidence that your messiah even exists!
I'll prempt your response: 'There's lots of evidence! Scientists are finding more and more evidence that Jesus existed as described in my Bible.'
At least try to make sense. Jesuon indeed.

 

[Gracchus]

What made them turn to a higher power or god for answers? This is the same with cultures all over the globe. Why not some other supernatural explaination. This "religious" urge doesn't fit well within Darwinistic beliefs.

Darwin was no psychologist. The religious urge does fit well with the teachings of Freud.

How can religion and specifically morality and ethical values be a by-product of natural selection?

There comes a time in (nearly) every human life, when you need people, when you are vulnerable. That is when you can reap the benefits of applying the golden rule. That is when society can turn its back on the bully, the thief, the liar, and the cheat.

Maybe, just maybe, their urge to seek out a higher power is an instinct based on truth.

The universe is vast beyond imagining, strange beyond conception, and frightening beyond tolerance.

Parents are a refuge from these facts when we are young, but as we get older, we realize that parents are just as helpless as we are. So we close our minds to the incomprehensibility and postulate an all-powerful sky daddy (or mama) to whom we can turn for comfort and redress of grievances.

Don't be so quick to think the status quo today will be the same 100 years from now. Your assumptions about Christians and the theory of ID are just that, assumptions.

Assumptions are assumptions!? That is so profound I cannot argue with it. The logic is flawless.

You're only 14! That is not enough time to study and research the evidence.

Indeed! Many lifetimes have been spent studying and researching the evidence. No one can be familiar with all of it. But the evidence is largely self-consistent, because of that effort over all those lifetimes. When inconsistencies do arise, scientists revise. That is why science works.

It seems that you are taking the conclusions of others and making them your own.

Well, in science at least, the conclusions are tentative. When inconsistencies are noted, they are studied and resolved. In religion, on the other hand, when inconsistencies are noted, miracles and mysteries are proclaimed, and the matter is dropped. There are mysteries and there may be miracles, but they are to be studied until the mysteries are solved, and the miracles become our own.

Take the time to study ID from a non-bias source, you may be surprised.

Perhaps you can cite some sources you consider useful.