Why is Fundamental Christians so down on Homosexuality?

[intricatic]

Ro 3: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

RO 2: [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Gods standard remains. It is a piece of who he is. To take awy from the law takes away from the picture of who God is. We are no longer subject to the penalty the law required for our sin, because Yeshua in his mercy took the penalty part upon himself for us so that we would be free to live in him.

What are these passages talking about? I considered that they were speaking towards The Law in the sense of what Jeremiah 31 enunciates. I agree, to an extent, but I also disagree because I've found 'living under the law', which is spoken of in the Epistles in the negative, as being a binding form to punishment instead of Christian liberty in Christ. That doesn't mean we're free to do whatever we want, willy nilly, but that;

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

And...

Romans 6
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And the rest of the Epistles, which speak to a change in the mode of relating to God, through Christ - which is not to say God's character has changed, but that God's promise of a blessing was fulfilled in Christ. We're not slaves to the letter, but slaves to the spirit - which also implies an inversion of the way the Law is established over mankind. Essentially, I agree with you and find your posts to be very interesting and well-thought out, but I do see a problem with making propositional statements about the Law of Moses. It's the spirit behind the Law, so to speak, that becomes the bringer of righteousness, because all are sinful and none are without the requirement of punishment under the Law when taken as precept.

 

[~InHisHands~]

[/font]

I don't believe that you do. For instance, you don't believe that the law is important in evangelism. The Bible tells us that it is and I've already given you two examples from scripture to show this.

Then, you say that Jesus tells us that we can come to Him just the way we are. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus tells us that we must repent and die to the flesh, not come to Him as we are.



That's swell. However, being a Republican does not give you a pass on matters of doctrine.



I'm not. Why are you so angry?



I'm not yelling at you.



In the growing list of examples I've already given you.



Very much so, thank you.



If somebody disagreeing with you is "abuse", then why on Earth would you come to a discussion forum where you know that people are going to disagree with you.



I'm not.

Quick question...when you first came to Christ, you came fully repented and dead of the flesh? You didn't come to him as a sinner? As you were?

 

[Charles YTK]

What are these passages talking about? I considered that they were speaking towards The Law in the sense of what Jeremiah 31 enunciates. I agree, to an extent, but I also disagree because I've found 'living under the law', which is spoken of in the Epistles in the negative, as being a binding form to punishment instead of Christian liberty in Christ. That doesn't mean we're free to do whatever we want, willy nilly, but that;



And...



And the rest of the Epistles, which speak to a change in the mode of relating to God, through Christ - which is not to say God's character has changed, but that God's promise of a blessing was fulfilled in Christ. We're not slaves to the letter, but slaves to the spirit - which also implies an inversion of the way the Law is established over mankind. Essentially, I agree with you and find your posts to be very interesting and well-thought out, but I do see a problem with making propositional statements about the Law of Moses. It's the spirit behind the Law, so to speak, that becomes the bringer of righteousness, because all are sinful and none are without the requirement of punishment under the Law when taken as precept.

And the rest of the Epistles, which speak to a change in the mode of relating to God, through Christ - which is not to say God's character has changed, but that God's promise of a blessing was fulfilled in Christ. We're not slaves to the letter, but slaves to the spirit - which also implies an inversion of the way the Law is established over mankind. Essentially, I agree with you and find your posts to be very interesting and well-thought out, but I do see a problem with making propositional statements about the Law of Moses. It's the spirit behind the Law, so to speak, that becomes the bringer of righteousness, because all are sinful and none are without the requirement of punishment under the Law when taken as precept.

I agree. It is the new life in the spirit which having the law of God written on our hearts and moving us by the spirit that causes the person to begin to live in compliance with the righteousness of the law. So in the end the law is kept. This is just as Paul has said.
But it is not Rabbinical law that is written on our hearts or kept in my new nature, but the Law of God for the Kingdom. It is not exactly word for word with the Torah of the Sinai covenant, but has many points in common.

So now I know from the heart that it is wrong to murder or even to be angry without cause. Now I know from within that not only is adultery wrong but to look upon another mans with lust is wrong. I feel it from inside. And so I avert my eyes, and I avert my anger. Ect Ect.

 

[lilymarie]

What I've been thinking about since your posts Charles is that the peace I felt upon reading your posts is if we make peace with the law itself and the word of God, that is freedom and that becomes peace because we no longer have to pick and chose this thing or that thing, meaning our flesh will no longer "wage" against it or parts of its. I felt like my whole being just became complete when I read your post. But, also, I'm really not able to put into words exactly what I'm feeling right now, but it's really wonderful.

It's hard to explain what I'm feeling but I think what my heart is telling me is that there is peace within the law.

However, my other point is that the law has "evolved" in parts towards progression and some towards regression, and so is this where Christian disunity and confusion comes in?

Because as I see it, the world wants the word of God, the Bible, to conform to the world, and in doing that, there will never be peace for me within the word of God.

The word of God cannot conform to the world... the world needs to conform to the word of God, and therein would lie the peace.

But again, as far as the law itself, I think humankind has evolved in certains areas of the law and excelled, and in other areas we've regressed.

How do we reconcile this in our current world?

 

[Charles YTK]

What I've been thinking about since your posts Charles is that the peace I felt upon reading your posts is if we make peace with the law itself and the word of God, that is freedom and that becomes peace because we no longer have to pick and chose this thing or that thing, meaning our flesh will no longer "wage" against it or parts of its. I felt like my whole being just became complete when I read your post. But, also, I'm really not able to put into words exactly what I'm feeling right now, but it's really wonderful.

It's hard to explain what I'm feeling but I think what my heart is telling me is that there is peace within the law.

However, my other point is that the law has "evolved" in parts towards progression and some towards regression, and so is this where Christian disunity and confusion comes in?

Because as I see it, the world wants the word of God, the Bible, to conform to the world, and in doing that, there will never be peace for me within the word of God.

The word of God cannot conform to the world... the world needs to conform to the word of God, and therein would lie the peace.

But again, as far as the law itself, I think humankind has evolved in certains areas of the law and excelled, and in other areas we've regressed.

How do we reconcile this in our current world?

Somewhere it is said, "Let God be true and every man a liar."

I see this to be the issue at the most critical time in history. And that was when the early church fathers took the next generation from the days of the apostles to the Christian era that followed and which pretty much remains to this day. They did just as you said, the conformed the bible to their world. And by their manipulation of a largely uneducated populace they built an empire through the coupling of the Roman military, legends about Jesus and the will of the Church. They tried to create by military might and forced conversions, a Kingdom that only God could create by in reality by changing mens hearts.

When I read these Church father there is so much that is totally contrary to Gods word and yet it became the foundational structures of the Church that would evolve in the Roman Empire and the lands it occupied.

This is why I am not part of religion or denominational or Orthodox Christianity. Its doctrines are founded on those Church fathers and is in conflict with the word of God and life of the Prophets, the Lord Messiah and his disciples. So let God be true and every man a liar. I will follow the Lord. And as I do I find great peace because no matter where I open the book I find the same God saying and doing the same things. He fulfills his promises and keeps his covenants. If we find something that seems to be in conflict then it is usually because we have not understood the context or the language differences. When we dig a little we find the truth that is consistant as only truth can be.

So for me there is peace in living by Gods law. Christians will skoff and will revile me for the way I live and my doctrine. They tell me I am not saved and have lost my salvation through Jesus. (Another example of their failure to understand the scriptures in context.) But it doesn't matter, because I have the Lord and am not anchored to a man made tradition. I don't need a booklet that tells me what we (our denomnation) believes and holds as truth. For me it is right there in the scriptures.

You will never find me defending my position from the Church fathers doctrine. I might use thier writings as a historical record of how they felt or what they reported about others, but I do not ever say, "I believe this or that because that is what the Church fathers taught" , or "It is the traditions of the faith handed down by the saints." These aguments never appear in my mind or in my writings.


We are all called to be disciples of Yeshua. The commadment was "Go into all nations making disciples of all men." A disciple sits at the masters feet. He learns his words, his teachings, his way of living, his manner, what he eats, how he dresses and so on. A Disciple become a copy of the original. Elisha sat at Elijahs feet and we can not always tell them apart in the stories and get them confused. Yeshua said call no man master or father or Rabbi. For there is only one who is your Master. We are to sit at Yeshua's feet, and be HIS Disciples, not the disciples of the Apostles or the disciples of the Church fathers or of any man who came after them and claim to be in their order of authority. We are disciples to Yeshua. We emulate him. We speak His words and live as he lived as much as we are able to in this age.

 

[lilymarie]

Somewhere it is said, "Let God be true and every man a liar."

I see this to be the issue at the most critical time in history. And that was when the early church fathers took the next generation from the days of the apostles to the Christian era that followed and which pretty much remains to this day. They did just as you said, the conformed the bible to their world. And by their manipulation of a largely uneducated populace they built an empire through the coupling of the Roman military, legends about Jesus and the will of the Church. They tried to create by military might and forced conversions, a Kingdom that only God could create by in reality by changing mens hearts.

When I read these Church father there is so much that is totally contrary to Gods word and yet it became the foundational structures of the Church that would evolve in the Roman Empire and the lands it occupied.

This is why I am not part of religion or denominational or Orthodox Christianity. Its doctrines are founded on those Church fathers and is in conflict with the word of God and life of the Prophets, the Lord Messiah and his disciples. So let God be true and every man a liar. I will follow the Lord. And as I do I find great peace because no matter where I open the book I find the same God saying and doing the same things. He fulfills his promises and keeps his covenants. If we find something that seems to be in conflict then it is usually because we have not understood the context or the language differences. When we dig a little we find the truth that is consistant as only truth can be.

So for me there is peace in living by Gods law. Christians will skoff and will revile me for the way I live and my doctrine. They tell me I am not saved and have lost my salvation through Jesus. (Another example of their failure to understand the scriptures in context.) But it doesn't matter, because I have the Lord and am not anchored to a man made tradition. I don't need a booklet that tells me what we (our denomnation) believes and holds as truth. For me it is right there in the scriptures.

You will never find me defending my position from the Church fathers doctrine. I might use thier writings as a historical record of how they felt or what they reported about others, but I do not ever say, "I believe this or that because that is what the Church fathers taught" , or "It is the traditions of the faith handed down by the saints." These aguments never appear in my mind or in my writings.


We are all called to be disciples of Yeshua. The commadment was "Go into all nations making disciples of all men." A disciple sits at the masters feet. He learns his words, his teachings, his way of living, his manner, what he eats, how he dresses and so on. A Disciple become a copy of the original. Elisha sat at Elijahs feet and we can not always tell them apart in the stories and get them confused. Yeshua said call no man master or father or Rabbi. For there is only one who is your Master. We are to sit at Yeshua's feet, and be HIS Disciples, not the disciples of the Apostles or the disciples of the Church fathers or of any man who came after them and claim to be in their order of authority. We are disciples to Yeshua. We emulate him. We speak His words and live as he lived as much as we are able to in this age.

I think this is another absolutely marvelous post. This is truth.

As a non-denominational, we're not into the ECF's either, not as far as I know. We follow Christ and the Holy Spirit, and our house is a house of prayer, and a place for all to worship The Lord in song, praise and the reading of the word.

As far as following the ECF's or the RCC, I think that would led me astray. I completely denounce following their view as it's not scriptural. There are far too many places that say wonderful things about the word, such as heaven and earth shall pass away, but the word of The Lord stands forever.

Amen to that.

 

[cubanito]

My favorite group are the physical men who claim they feel like lesbians. That is, they feel like women trapped inside a male body, but who want sex with other women. And of course, access to the locker room...

Ya can't make up this stuff.

JR

 

[Charles YTK]

My favorite group are the physical men who claim they feel like lesbians. That is, they feel like women trapped inside a male body, but who want sex with other women. And of course, access to the locker room...

Ya can't make up this stuff.

JR

Ah Yes. Life acording to one of the greatest Jewish sages of OUR time, Robin Williams, who said "I am just a lesbian stuck in a man's body." (I can relate to that.)

Another one of his I liked real well, "I though about using the National Equirerer to line a bird cage, but what's the point, it would be redundant!"

 

[cubanito]

Ah Yes. Life acording to one of the greatest Jewish sages of OUR time, Robin Williams, who said "I am just a lesbian stuck in a man's body." (I can relate to that.)

Another one of his I liked real well, "I though about using the National Equirerer to line a bird cage, but what's the point, it would be redundant!"

I didn't know about Williams' joke. I do remember a group of men making the claim for real.

JR

 

[GenemZ]

Why is a persons personal sexual orientation a problem to most Christians. All that is required is that you love God and Love your neighbor, so if two Homosexuals are in your Church and they love God and love their neighbors and are going to Church, what is the problem?

Charles. I have a question for you. Are you gay? The reason I ask? Is because if you do not like being thought of as being gay? Its a moot point as to what the answer is to your question.

Why are you asking this question? It is the in vogue pet liberal concept that makes liberals feel better at being open minded, and pridefully superior to those who stick with the Bible. Its a pride game that thinks its being righteous, when in fact, its self righteous pride about one being liberally minded that motivates some to wrongly think God accepts homosexuality as a norm these days. God accepts the homosexual. But he rejects the homosexuality. Just as God accepts the criminal, but rejects criminality...

Why is this so hard to grasp for some? They do not want to give up their prideful sense of liberalism? Or, may be trying to appeal to the body of Christ for acceptance as they are, rather than acceptance because of who Christ made them to be when they believed.

2 Corinthians 5:17 niv
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
​

The goal of the believer is to grow in grace and knowledge of the Word as to discover what it is God has made them become the moment they believed in Christ! Many leave their new creation in a dormant stage as they try gain respectabilty of sin by tagging themself with the name 'Christian.'

Not every Christian will live as a Christian should. That does not mean they are not saved. It just means they never discover the benefits of being saved.

God has saved us all with some area of weakness left entact. The goal of our salvation is to eventually overcome our weakness(es). Not, justify them by distorting Scripture as to gain a new found in for acceptance. Homosexuals are welcome in Church. Homosexuality is not.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

 

[S Walch]

Actually Genez, Charles asked this question to make a point:

Why do those who are so down on homosexuality use the passage from leviticus to show that it's wrong, yet don't obey everything else contained in the law. Charles is getting people to realise their hypocrisy.

 

[Charles YTK]

And to make sure it is stated for others, no I am not Gay. I have been married to the same women for 37 years and we have 5 children, 7 grandchildren and one great grandchild.

I have been a spirit filled Messianic believer since 1976.

(Thanks again Mr. Walch for keeping things in order.)

 

[GenemZ]

Actually Genez, Charles asked this question to make a point:

Why do those who are so down on homosexuality use the passage from leviticus to show that it's wrong, yet don't obey everything else contained in the law. Charles is getting people to realise their hypocrisy.

You miss the point. They do see what the passage says. They do not deny it.

What they decide to do with other passages that pertain to what they do not wish to follow is not the point. The point is, the Bible condemns homosexuality. If homosexuals were not trying so hard to prove that were not the case, it would not receive all the attention it does get.

Then they beg the question.... "Why are Christians so obsessed with homosexuality?!" WHY? Because they are trying to take control of the cultural thinking as to make it an accepted norm for all. That's why...

To me, its just another false dostrine that needs to be refuted. Trouble is, its denial of denial after denial, that one is dealing with.

Proverbs 30:20 (New American Standard Bible)
"This is the way of an adulterous woman:
She eats and wipes her mouth,
And says, "I have done no wrong."
​

Adultery for norming, anyone?

They see no wrong in what they do. And, we know that the Bible condemns adultery, too. Now? If an organization began trying to promote books for kids in school showing... Mommy has Boyfriends... Christians would seem to be adultery obsessed.


We are not obsessed with only homosexuality. Its because homosexuals are now obsesssed in gaining EQUAL standing with godly design by means of social and political pressure to conform to their desired goal.

Romans 12:2 niv​

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."​

Those who make excuses against those opposing free acceptance of homosexuality as a norm, are the ones who are conforming to the world. They want acceptance from people before they seek acceptance from God. Being seen by people as being closed minded shames them. They really desire acceptance of the world as being open minded and loving. Its wrong, and a distortion of why we as Christians have been put on the earth.

Luke 6:26 niv​

"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets."​

Grace and truth, GeneZ​

​

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Excelent example of "missing the point" genez

 

[Charles YTK]

You have still missed the point of the thread. Your own point is valid yes, but I only used Homosexuality as an example of how the Church picks the laws it wants to make an issue of and ignores things that it does not want to conform to itself.

The Christians love to eat Pork and shellfish, shrimp and anythingthing else that they can think of. But God says eating those things is an abomination to us and to him, just as he also says that homosexuality and having sex with an animal is an abomination. So what isn't the Christians getting their act together and doing what Gods says? Because the Dietary laws are Jewish laws and sexual matters are not? Wrong answer. They are both given by God to those who are his children.

 

[icedtea]

Were they given to the gentiles, also?

 

[Charles YTK]

Were they given to the gentiles, also?

Yes they were. Both in the Sinai covenant and in the New Covenant for the Kingdom. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the New Covenant.

It says I will write my Torah upon their hearts and every man will know me. Jeremiah 31

 

[GenemZ]

You have still missed the point of the thread. Your own point is valid yes, but I only used Homosexuality as an example of how the Church picks the laws it wants to make an issue of and ignores things that it does not want to conform to itself.

The Christians love to eat Pork and shellfish, shrimp and anythingthing else that they can think of. But God says eating those things is an abomination to us and to him, just as he also says that homosexuality and having sex with an animal is an abomination.

A little balance is needed here. Eating pork and shellfish was not inluding capital punishment, as homosexuality and adultery did.

You are crossing over the dietary laws which God nullified with Peter, and the CIVIL laws of the land which dealt with an entirely different aspect of Jewish life.

The dietary laws, by the way, are quite interesting. Pork could cause trichinosis, and shell fish, hepatitis. They could cause their own penalty.

Yet, God knowing the Church was now to go into all the world, dropped the consequences of the Law. Yet, did not drop the spirit of the Law.

Romans 1:32 niv​

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."​

Paul said that those who practiced homosexuality 'deserved death." But, since they were not under the Law of Israel (which was given by God) they were not to be executed. Yet, the spirit of the Law REMAINS!

Are you getting this?

So what isn't the Christians getting their act together and doing what Gods says? Because the Dietary laws are Jewish laws and sexual matters are not? Wrong answer. They are both given by God to those who are his children.

Dietary laws are one thing. Murder is still murder. Lying is still lying. Homosexuality is still homosexuality.

If murder takes on a new form? Late term abortion? Is it not murder because such abortions were not performed at the time of the Law?

Homosexuality may have changed its act over time. Its still a man lying with a man as a man lies with a woman.

The first homosexuals were fallen angels. Not men. That is why this particular sin was forbidden by God. For those who involve themselves in such activity must receive their inspiration from evil... That's what many miss here in seeing. They think its just a preference.

Genesis 6 reveals that angels were originally created with sexual ability...

In Christ, GeneZ​

​

 

[Charles YTK]

Peter didn't nullify Dietary laws.

Where did you get that Angels were the first to practice homsexuality?

God made laws for many things. But who are we to choose which are important. God has that authority not man. And since he says that when the Lord (Yeshua) comes to judge the nations those who are eating Pork and rats will be found in the place of Judgment. Are we simple to corect God and tell him he has no right because the Church fathers said it was OK?

 

[icedtea]

It seems as though you are arguing for legalism over grace.