Why is Fundamental Christians so down on Homosexuality?

[Charles YTK]

Actually, I already said, but didn't clarify why, that we are not held under the dietary laws anymore. However, I think it's fascinating how God's word is true, and as far as pigs -- they didn't have farm regulations back then. This was God teaching early man; however, we have evolved with nutrition and how to stay healthier with regards to boils and such and such. My point was that God even had to tell us what food was good to eat and what was not, and we're not grateful for that.

Also, most Christians refuse to read the OT and there is so much to gain by reading the OT.

But I know what Romans 14 says... it's basically saying one WHO eats does so unto The Lord and the one WHO abstains from eating does so also unto The Lord -- however, the point was EACH should be FULLY convinced in their own mind. Oh, and I'm kind of in the vegetable category for the most part.

Lilly,

We have to keep this passage in the context in which it was writen. It is not about clean and unclean meat in a biblical Kosher sence. Pauls discussion here is about normally clean food that might have been contaminated in t Rabbinical sence, for example having ben sacrificed to Idols which is where much of th emat in th emarkets came from, or having ben handled by or slaughtered by a Gentile. In a Rabbinical context these would make the food unclean. Biblically it would not. Paul is concerned that some who were afraid to eat any meat for fear of a Rabbinical uncleaness were having dispute with those who ate the meat without concern for the Rabbincal rulings. It come down to the strong and the weak in faith.

Paul says "20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble."

For a Jew food is only tht which is Kosher. If it is not Kosher it is not even called food. The problem is that the food (Kosher) was considered by the Rabbinate to be unclean if handled by Gentiles. This is what Paul is concerned with. He does not want the burden of all those Rabbinical laws to get in th eway of simple obedience through faith to Gods own commandments. And he does not want th ebrothers tearing one another apart over Rabbinical ordinances which were not even an issue with God. They were only mans traditions, religion.

 

[intricatic]

Gentiles who adjoin themselves to Israel are part of Israel and as such are to keep the laws God gave Israel. Those who believe in Messiah are are saved by his sacrifice are grafted into Israel.

Num 15: [14] And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

If a stranger was eating unclean food he would not be allowed to make a sarifice.

Deuteronomy 14
3 “You shall not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the mountain goat, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts, and that chews the cud, among the animals. 7 Nevertheless, of those that chew the cud or have cloven hooves, you shall not eat, such as these: the camel, the hare, and the rock hyrax; for they chew the cud but do not have cloven hooves; they are unclean for you. 8 Also the swine is unclean for you, because it has cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud; you shall not eat their flesh or touch their dead carcasses.
9 “These you may eat of all that are in the waters: you may eat all that have fins and scales. 10 And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.
11 “All clean birds you may eat. 12 But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 13 the red kite, the falcon, and the kite after their kinds; 14 every raven after its kind; 15 the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after their kinds; 16 the little owl, the screech owl, the white owl, 17 the jackdaw, the carrion vulture, the fisher owl, 18 the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat.
19 “Also every creeping thing that flies is unclean for you; they shall not be eaten.
20 “You may eat all clean birds.
21 “You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the LORD your God.
“You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.

Are you telling me these laws and the exceptions we see throughout them are not a statement to the same idea of what faith itself is?

All I need know about it is this;

Colossians 2
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

How so? The way people were made righteous in the Old covenant was through faith. Is that different now?

What does it mean to be righteous?

Here is the word Righteous:


1342dikaios { dik’-ah-yos}

from 1349; TDNT - 2:182,168; adj

AV - righteous 41, just 33, right 5, meet 2; 81

GK - 1465 { δίκαιος }

1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Strong, J. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible :

Here is one from the Old testament:
6662tsaddiyq { tsad-deek’}

from 6663; TWOT - 1879c; adj

AV - righteous 162, just 42, righteous man 1, lawful 1; 206

GK - 7404 { צַדִּיק }

1) just, lawful, righteous
1a) just, righteous (in government)
1b) just, right (in one’s cause)
1c) just, righteous (in conduct and character)
1d) righteous (as justified and vindicated by God)
1e) right, correct, lawful
Strong, J. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible :


Abraham was a man who believed God and he was counted as righteous. Did his faith create a way of life within him?

Here is the testimony concerning Abraham:

Gen 26: [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here. We also see examples of God's righteous servants ignoring the Law, and being still blessed despite.

Matthew 12
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

It doesn't rally matter how we take it. Peter was given the meaning of the vision and he said it was about the acceptance of the Gentiles. And he never brings up any change in Dietary laws. He goes to stay with Cornelius, but Cornelius is a God fearer and ate a Kosher diet. Don't take the acceptance of the Gentiles and make it about food. It was not about that acording to Peter. I think we must accept his explanation.

Absolutely. The fact still remains that the form it took is an antitype in itself. Or was the form absolutely unnecessary and contradictory to it's true purpose? Why didn't God just show Peter a diverse group of people being baptized?

 

[lilymarie]

Lilly,

We have to keep this passage in the context in which it was writen. It is not about clean and unclean meat in a biblical Kosher sence. Pauls discussion here is about normally clean food that might have been contaminated in t Rabbinical sence, for example having ben sacrificed to Idols which is where much of th emat in th emarkets came from, or having ben handled by or slaughtered by a Gentile. In a Rabbinical context these would make the food unclean. Biblically it would not. Paul is concerned that some who were afraid to eat any meat for fear of a Rabbinical uncleaness were having dispute with those who ate the meat without concern for the Rabbincal rulings. It come down to the strong and the weak in faith.

Paul says "20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble."

For a Jew food is only tht which is Kosher. If it is not Kosher it is not even called food. The problem is that the food (Kosher) was considered by the Rabbinate to be unclean if handled by Gentiles. This is what Paul is concerned with. He does not want the burden of all those Rabbinical laws to get in th eway of simple obedience through faith to Gods own commandments. And he does not want th ebrothers tearing one another apart over Rabbinical ordinances which were not even an issue with God. They were only mans traditions, religion.

I think Romans 14 is much deeper than Rabbis because look at Romans 14:5... one man considers ONE day MORE sacred than another....

What Romans 14:5 seems to be addressing is which DAY would the Sabbath fall on, since the Hebrew calendar was a lunar calendar and the Greek/Roman calendar was a solar calendar; therefore, the day for the Sabbath would not coincide. Therefore, I think Romans 14 is really discussing traditional Sabbath day and WHICH foods should be shared among those who disagree about foods, as the Hebrews and Greeks obviously did.

What do you think of my analogy of Romans 14?

And for those of you reading this who don't understand the ancient calendars, let me give you a brief synopsis. In a very brief explanation, a lunar calendar and solar calendar differ greatly. Because Jesus was crucified the day after Passover this is why our celebration day of Easter changes every year as Easter needs to coincide with the lunar calendar to determine when Passover is. Our Solar calendar cannot tell us when Passover is. Hope that helped explain a little. And, also some scripture above that intricatic posted speaks of this same idea, i.e. The New Moon Festival and don't let anyone judge you about A Sabbath Day. Therefore, which day the Sabbath fell on was a main thing in dispute. And also all wanted to share the Sabbath together, though I do believe they were fighting over food.

Romans 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23

Edit in: Here's the scripture intricatic posted.

Colossians 2
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

__________

Oh, and I disagree with some posters who say ALL foods are clean. I'm not gonna eat rats and that's final!

 

[Charles YTK]

Are you telling me these laws and the exceptions we see throughout them are not a statement to the same idea of what faith itself is?

All I need know about it is this;




I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here. We also see examples of God's righteous servants ignoring the Law, and being still blessed despite.





Absolutely. The fact still remains that the form it took is an antitype in itself. Or was the form absolutely unnecessary and contradictory to it's true purpose? Why didn't God just show Peter a diverse group of people being baptized?

First off we need to see what Paul is talking about here in Colossians 2: [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He seems to be talking about philosophy and traditions of men and not about God's laws of Torah. It is likely that he has in mind the Rabbinical ordiances that made life in Torah such a burden. But lets look at this in a short analyses.


[SIZE=-1] Paul is saying don't let anyone criticize you in these things. There are two possibilities; either he is saying not to let people criticize you for NOT doing them, which then means that Paul is not in agreement with his own Judaism and is indeed an apostate, OR he is saying not to let people criticize them FOR DOING them, which makes Paul a true apostle fully supporting Judaism in which he lives and in harmony with the teachings of Messiah and also in agreement with himself where in other places he says that there is no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile, that they are all one and part of the Israel of God.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]Now lets go on, who would be criticizing the Gentiles for NOT keeping the festivals and Sabbaths?[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Jews? No they did not want the Gentiles to do these things. They were very protective of Torah and feared assimilation.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Messianic Jews of the circumcision party? No, they wanted the Gentiles to do them as long as they had converted first to Judaism.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles? No they didn't care if other Gentiles were not observing Jewish things.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]But if we take the position that Paul was true to his own convictions and the teaching that Gentiles were fully a part of Israel through faith in Messiah, then the Gentiles Would be criticized by the Jews for doing them, because they did not recognize Gentiles as part of Israel, and did not want Judaism polluted by Gentiles.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The circumcision party would also be critical because the Gentiles were doing them without converting and being circumcised first.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles would not really care either way.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So it makes a clear connection that the Gentiles WERE DOING the festivals and Sabbaths and were being criticized for DOING them and not for failing to do them.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Paul goes on to warn the Gentiles not to go into false teachings like Angle worship and self denial possible associated with some separate group.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]This understanding maintains Paul’s position toward Gentiles and is in agreement with the teachings of Messiah as well.[/SIZE]

Paul had a lot of problems bringing his Gentile believers into some sort of balance, pressured by Pagan rituals of their friends and family, Esthics of sects like th eEscenes, Oral Torah Rabbinical traitons by th ecircumcision party, Jews who wanted them to convert and be Jews and many other things. Paul here istelling them to stay focused on Yeshua. All the rituals and appointed times of th eLord they had a right to do as it says, "They were a shadow of things coming, but the body is of Messiah."

Absolutely. The fact still remains that the form it took is an antitype in itself. Or was the form absolutely unnecessary and contradictory to it's true purpose? Why didn't God just show Peter a diverse group of people being baptized?

We can't answer the why part of this. All we know is that Peter understood it to be about Gentiles. Gentiles were considered the same as an unclean animal somthing amost sub-human if you will. They were of th eopinon that a Gentile could no more be saved than a pig could be saved. But God showed Peter that the Rabbis were wrong and that God did indeed have a plan to save the Gentiles just as he had spoken through the prophets and promised to Abraham.

[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It was not about food, and th eissue of food or abolishing Kosher law never comes up. Contrary to that we see the Gentiles given two Kosher laws as part of the four to observe as a starting point.

 

[intricatic]

Oh, and I disagree with some posters who say ALL foods are clean. I'm not gonna eat rats and that's final!

That's just common sense. I really doubt it'd have any implication on one's spiritual wellbeing, though. The only problem I find is in the monastic view that states the spiritual and the physical are united and complete - it's difficult to see eating bacon as either spiritually bad or physically bad, though. At least, not so bas as taking a stroll down a busy street, or going to work in a warehouse, or eating anything with preservatives in it. Thank God that our health is not what determines our salvation!

 

[Charles YTK]

I think Romans 14 is much deeper than Rabbis because look at Romans 14:5... one man considers ONE day MORE sacred than another....

What Romans 14:5 seems to be addressing is which DAY would the Sabbath fall on, since the Hebrew calendar was a lunar calendar and the Greek/Roman calendar was a solar calendar; therefore, the day for the Sabbath would not coincide. Therefore, I think Romans 14 is really discussing traditional Sabbath day and WHICH foods should be shared among those who disagree about foods, as the Hebrews and Greeks obviously did.

What do you think of my analogy of Romans 14?

I don't think the regular weekly Sabbath is the issue here. Because we see no evidence from scripture that the Apostles or believers stop keeping Sabbath. Some add Sunday as a meeting time and some meet every day but no mention of changing or abolishing the Sabbath.

What is likely in view her is the extra sabbats that the Rabbis added to the religion, like the day of wood cutting, the day of the brides dance, Chanucha, Purim, and so many other things. Fasts as well were added, on almost a weekly basis. It was all relgious ferver but not biblical commandments.

There are things mentioned too that could be conneted with the Escenes, like veneration of Angels, and don't handle don't touch and abstaining from meats ect. These ae not Torah issues. They fall outside of that into the traditions of men.

 

[Charles YTK]

That's just common sense. I really doubt it'd have any implication on one's spiritual wellbeing, though. The only problem I find is in the monastic view that states the spiritual and the physical are united and complete - it's difficult to see eating bacon as either spiritually bad or physically bad, though. At least, not so bas as taking a stroll down a busy street, or going to work in a warehouse, or eating anything with preservatives in it. Thank God that our health is not what determines our salvation!

Isaiah 66: [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.


This speaks of the second coming of the Lord when he comes to judge all men and establish his kingdom.

 

[lilymarie]

First off we need to see what Paul is talking about here in Colossians 2: [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He seems to be talking about philosophy and traditions of men and not about God's laws of Torah. It is likely that he has in mind the Rabbinical ordiances that made life in Torah such a burden. But lets look at this in a short analyses.


[SIZE=-1] Paul is saying don't let anyone criticize you in these things. There are two possibilities; either he is saying not to let people criticize you for NOT doing them, which then means that Paul is not in agreement with his own Judaism and is indeed an apostate, OR he is saying not to let people criticize them FOR DOING them, which makes Paul a true apostle fully supporting Judaism in which he lives and in harmony with the teachings of Messiah and also in agreement with himself where in other places he says that there is no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile, that they are all one and part of the Israel of God.[/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]Now lets go on, who would be criticizing the Gentiles for NOT keeping the festivals and Sabbaths?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Jews? No they did not want the Gentiles to do these things. They were very protective of Torah and feared assimilation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Messianic Jews of the circumcision party? No, they wanted the Gentiles to do them as long as they had converted first to Judaism.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles? No they didn't care if other Gentiles were not observing Jewish things.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]But if we take the position that Paul was true to his own convictions and the teaching that Gentiles were fully a part of Israel through faith in Messiah, then the Gentiles Would be criticized by the Jews for doing them, because they did not recognize Gentiles as part of Israel, and did not want Judaism polluted by Gentiles.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The circumcision party would also be critical because the Gentiles were doing them without converting and being circumcised first.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles would not really care either way.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So it makes a clear connection that the Gentiles WERE DOING the festivals and Sabbaths and were being criticized for DOING them and not for failing to do them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Paul goes on to warn the Gentiles not to go into false teachings like Angle worship and self denial possible associated with some separate group.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]This understanding maintains Paul’s position toward Gentiles and is in agreement with the teachings of Messiah as well.[/SIZE]

Paul had a lot of problems bringing his Gentile believers into some sort of balance, pressured by Pagan rituals of their friends and family, Esthics of sects like th eEscenes, Oral Torah Rabbinical traitons by th ecircumcision party, Jews who wanted them to convert and be Jews and many other things. Paul here istelling them to stay focused on Yeshua. All the rituals and appointed times of th eLord they had a right to do as it says, "They were a shadow of things coming, but the body is of Messiah."




We can't answer the why part of this. All we know is that Peter understood it to be about Gentiles. Gentiles were considered the same as an unclean animal somthing amost sub-human if you will. They were of th eopinon that a Gentile could no more be saved than a pig could be saved. But God showed Peter that the Rabbis were wrong and that God did indeed have a plan to save the Gentiles just as he had spoken through the prophets and promised to Abraham.

[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It was not about food, and th eissue of food or abolishing Kosher law never comes up. Contrary to that we see the Gentiles given two Kosher laws as part of the four to observe as a starting point.

I read both yours and intricatics posts and I think they are wonderful! Bravo!

But now my question is... how does this food issue and the festivals or pagan festivals and/or the extra Rabbinical rules relate to the question of homosexual acts? Or lets take it a step further, bisexuality and orgies also to include us heteros. Or just stick with your OP regarding homosexual acts if you chose.

How do these issues connect with homosexual acts?

 

[lilymarie]

I don't think the regular weekly Sabbath is the issue here. Because we see no evidence from scripture that the Apostles or believers stop keeping Sabbath. Some add Sunday as a meeting time and some meet every day but no mention of changing or abolishing the Sabbath.

What is likely in view her is the extra sabbats that the Rabbis added to the religion, like the day of wood cutting, the day of the brides dance, Chanucha, Purim, and so many other things. Fasts as well were added, on almost a weekly basis. It was all relgious ferver but not biblical commandments.

There are things mentioned too that could be conneted with the Escenes, like veneration of Angels, and don't handle don't touch and abstaining from meats ect. These ae not Torah issues. They fall outside of that into the traditions of men.

I never said they wanted to abolish traditional Sabbath? I think what Romans 14 is addressing is ALL days are worthy of worship to The Lord. And we, as modern day Gentile Christians have no right to judge Messianics if they want to have a traditional Sabbath, nor is anyone to judge how we would like to worship The Lord, even if it's everyday.

My point was the differing calendars would make the one sacred day differ, and I said 'thus' they were fighting over it. I never said abolish the Sabbath at all.

My point is in regards to the differing calendars as a lunar calendar compared to a solar calendar would differ... this is why Passover/Easter change within as little as two to thirty five days in any given year because a lunar calendar is very, very different than the solar.

 

[Charles YTK]

I read both yours and intricatics posts and I think they are wonderful! Bravo!

But now my question is... how does this food issue and the festivals or pagan festivals and/or the extra Rabbinical rules relate to the question of homosexual acts? Or lets take it a step further, bisexuality and orgies also to include us heteros. Or just stick with your OP regarding homosexual acts if you chose.

How do these issues connect with homosexual acts?

My point in the post is this:

Both the laws of sexual morality and the laws of clean and unclean food are from God's law in Leviticus. If christians bring judgment against homosexuality based on the law, then they can not turn around and say the dietary laws are abolished because they are the same laws from the same God. It is inconsistent to call homosexual (and other deviant sexual practices) sin without also admitting that eating pork, shell-fish, worms, rats and snakes is also sin. We can't pick laws we like and abolish the ones we don't like. God has told us what is food and what s not food. God has told us what is good normal sexual function and what is not normal or approved, (like sex with a near relation)

 

[intricatic]

First off we need to see what Paul is talking about here in Colossians 2: [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He seems to be talking about philosophy and traditions of men and not about God's laws of Torah. It is likely that he has in mind the Rabbinical ordiances that made life in Torah such a burden. But lets look at this in a short analyses.


[SIZE=-1] Paul is saying don't let anyone criticize you in these things. There are two possibilities; either he is saying not to let people criticize you for NOT doing them, which then means that Paul is not in agreement with his own Judaism and is indeed an apostate, OR he is saying not to let people criticize them FOR DOING them, which makes Paul a true apostle fully supporting Judaism in which he lives and in harmony with the teachings of Messiah and also in agreement with himself where in other places he says that there is no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile, that they are all one and part of the Israel of God.[/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]Now lets go on, who would be criticizing the Gentiles for NOT keeping the festivals and Sabbaths?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Jews? No they did not want the Gentiles to do these things. They were very protective of Torah and feared assimilation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Messianic Jews of the circumcision party? No, they wanted the Gentiles to do them as long as they had converted first to Judaism.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles? No they didn't care if other Gentiles were not observing Jewish things.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]But if we take the position that Paul was true to his own convictions and the teaching that Gentiles were fully a part of Israel through faith in Messiah, then the Gentiles Would be criticized by the Jews for doing them, because they did not recognize Gentiles as part of Israel, and did not want Judaism polluted by Gentiles.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The circumcision party would also be critical because the Gentiles were doing them without converting and being circumcised first.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Gentiles would not really care either way.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]So it makes a clear connection that the Gentiles WERE DOING the festivals and Sabbaths and were being criticized for DOING them and not for failing to do them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Paul goes on to warn the Gentiles not to go into false teachings like Angle worship and self denial possible associated with some separate group.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]This understanding maintains Paul’s position toward Gentiles and is in agreement with the teachings of Messiah as well.[/SIZE]

Paul had a lot of problems bringing his Gentile believers into some sort of balance, pressured by Pagan rituals of their friends and family, Esthics of sects like th eEscenes, Oral Torah Rabbinical traitons by th ecircumcision party, Jews who wanted them to convert and be Jews and many other things. Paul here istelling them to stay focused on Yeshua. All the rituals and appointed times of th eLord they had a right to do as it says, "They were a shadow of things coming, but the body is of Messiah."

I see.

Colossians 2
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

It's rather obvious what he's talking about, but I guess I can see where you're coming from, or how it ties into this.

We can't answer the why part of this. All we know is that Peter understood it to be about Gentiles. Gentiles were considered the same as an unclean animal somthing amost sub-human if you will. They were of th eopinon that a Gentile could no more be saved than a pig could be saved. But God showed Peter that the Rabbis were wrong and that God did indeed have a plan to save the Gentiles just as he had spoken through the prophets and promised to Abraham.

[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It was not about food, and th eissue of food or abolishing Kosher law never comes up. Contrary to that we see the Gentiles given two Kosher laws as part of the four to observe as a starting point.

As I agree - but it still doesn't change the text itself to say something other than it does, in fact, say. One has to over-complicate the text to a massive degree in order to trivialize this fact.

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are but under law toward Christ without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

 

[lilymarie]

My point in the post is this:

Both the laws of sexual morality and the laws of clean and unclean food are from God's law in Leviticus. If christians bring judgment against homosexuality based on the law, then they can not turn around and say the dietary laws are abolished because they are the same laws from the same God. It is inconsistent to call homosexual (and other deviant sexual practices) sin without also admitting that eating pork, shell-fish, worms, rats and snakes is also sin. We can't pick laws we like and abolish the ones we don't like. God has told us what is food and what s not food. God has told us what is good normal sexual function and what is not normal or approved, (like sex with a near relation)

I agree to a point, as Levitical dietary law has very common sense, BUT here's my issue:

Jesus came to change the inner person of the heart, and Jesus said do not worry about what you will eat nor what you will wear...? Which is some ways means "don't be superficial" somewhat like the fake Pharisees were. You're not gonna tell me I need to wear fringes are you?

However, Jesus said do not commit porneia.

Could you elaborate your point a little Charles. I'm missing something.

Oh, and you said no sex with a near relation... what other sex acts are forbidden? Just asking you to spell out your post a little clearer.

Thanks.

p.s. I think this is an interesting debate.

 

[Charles YTK]

Yes you are quite right about the calendars. And then even further within Judaism there were two different Lunar calendars in the days of Yeshua, one by the temple authority and one by the Escenes. This resulted in two Passover observances. This is how Yeshua and the disciples had a Passover seder on one day and the next day Yeshua was killed when the jews were observing their passover.

 

[lilymarie]

Yes you are quite right about the calendars. And then even further within Judaism there were two different Lunar calendars in the days of Yeshua, one by the temple authority and one by the Escenes. This resulted in two Passover observances. This is how Yeshua and the disciples had a Passover seder on one day and the next day Yeshua was killed when the jews were observing their passover.

Wait, back up a sec. So, if the Jews were celebrating a Passover, then who were the people involved in asking for the crucifixtion of Jesus? Were these a different type of "Jews" then? Or some other kind of people?

That lost me....but could be very interesting....

 

[Charles YTK]

I agree to a point, as Levitical dietary law has very common sense, BUT here's my issue:

Jesus came to change the inner person of the heart, and Jesus said do not worry about what you will eat nor what you will wear...? Which is some ways means "don't be superficial" somewhat like the fake Pharisees were. You're not gonna tell me I need to wear fringes are you?

However, Jesus said do not commit porneia.

Could you elaborate your point a little Charles. I'm missing something.

Oh, and you said no sex with a near relation... what other sex acts are forbidden? Just asking you to spell out your post a little clearer.

Thanks.

p.s. I think this is an interesting debate.

Jesus did change the inner person, by giving us his spirit. Just as this change results in our having a new desire to live according to his instructions and his own life example, it should also provoke in us a desire to live sexually pure, and to also pay atention to anything else God says we are to do.

All of these laws are to do with sanctification, making a people who can represent him in the earth, and just as we would rejet a minister who was a pervert, we should also recognize that a minister who does not have control of his appitites for food is not living by the spirit either.

The laws about sexual purity is is Leviticus 18 and the food laws are mostly in Lev 11.


Sanctification

Paul says the Tanakh (Old Testament) is to be used for training in righteousness to prepare us for all good works. He says that the word (Law) is the washing of regeneration for sanctification. (my paraphrase.) I thought maybe some simple examples of Sanctification through law might help.

God says I want you redeemed people to represent me in the earth as a testimony of who I am. In order to do this you must be holy as I am holy. Your way of living must be set apart and righteous and not like those nations of lost Pagan out there I want you to witness to. And so he sets down guiding lines so that we know the difference between what is holy and what is unholy. He takes the common, that which is typical of all men and makes it into a holy act. Consider these examples.

Time is continuous. Every day is just another day. A dog does not know what day it is. Neither does a slave. Every day is a work day. So God Sanctifies time in a special way making divisions that make the continuous time line into segments and divides them further in to holy and regular days.
The week he divides into Sabbath (rest) and the other six for common work. He divides the month with the Rosh Kodesh. He divides the year into holy days and special sabbaths or festivals like Pesac, First fruits, shavuot, ect. Then he divides the cycles into Sabbaticals of 7 years when lands are rested and the cycle of sabbaticals into Jubilees. So through this there are common times and Holy times. These are all Sabbaths. Without Sabbath we are all slaves or like animals.

Sex is a universal human trait. We can have sex any time we want with whomever we choose and allow sex to be the same as any other animal. But God says there is holy sex and unholy. He defines who can be a sex partner and who can not. He sanctifies sex through marriage making something common into something sacred. Without marriage and purity laws we are all like common animals.

There are all sorts of things to eat that will not harm you. An animal will eat anything he finds. And the unrighteous man will eat anything. But God once again defines what is food and what is not food through Kosher food laws, There are clean and unclean. There are times of feasting and times of fasting. So now we have some restrictions but we also have a holy way of eating. We are not controlled by our appetites, we control our appetites. So through Gods laws the common act of eating is made into a holy act.

God can be worshipped in many different ways. A look at the many Pagan practices which incorporated brutality human sacrifice, temple sex, debauchery and degradation can serve as an example of diversity. But God says, you are not to worship me as the Pagans worship their Gods. And so he tells us what is the holy way of worship and what is an abomination to him. He sanctifies our worship through his law.

He teaches us how to give charity in a holy way. How to help others in a holy way. How to bless others even our enemies and turn conflict into holy forgiveness.

And so on it goes. The law takes what is common and routine and carves out of that a way of holiness, sanctifying, making holy things that would otherwise be common. And no-one explained the law and how to apply it to out lives better than Yeshua. Throughout the Gospels and especially in Matt Chapters 5-7 we see Torah teaching according to the Lord himself, the one who gave us the law. Today even in Rabbinical schools the Gospels are studied because the Torah teaching of Yeshua is the pinnacle of understanding. We who have been saved by his grace through messiah do not give legalistic service to the law as had become the custom during 2nd temple times. Our lives are changed having the Torah of God written on our inward parts and the spirit given to guide us into all truth. So now those things that we desire to do we should discover, with no surprise, are the same things that are contained in the law. By this process the Lord prepares us for his coming, showing us our lives compared to the commandment within our hearts “ That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.”

 

[Charles YTK]

Wait, back up a sec. So, if the Jews were celebrating a Passover, then who were the people involved in asking for the crucifixtion of Jesus? Were these a different type of "Jews" then? Or some other kind of people?

That lost me....but could be very interesting....

Well it is intersting yes, because it proves that the scriptures are 100% correct about the events. The Jews of the temple authority wanted Yeshua killed because he was so popular with the people that they feared they would make him king. and they wanted it done quickly before the Passover closed the Roman judgments for the week. This could give time for the supporters of Jesus to organize and get him out of jail. So they wanted him killed right away.

While they are plotting all this Yeshua and the Disciples go to the Escene Quarter, who are really the former Zadokite priests and who because of a dispute over how to determine the Passover, oberve their own Passover and even kill their own lambs, which was legal and allowed becuase they are the former Zadokites of the days of David. And they live on the slopes of the temple mount.

So the Lord has his passover with them on Tuesday (the Escene Passover is always on Tuesday) which is the 14th to them, and the Jews of the temple authority (Saducees) hold their passover the next day which is the 14th to them. but is Wednesday. So Yeshua is killed on Wed afternood at 3 Pm which is preparation day for the high Sabbath of the feast of unleavned bread, and is put in the tomb. He remains there thursday friday and Sabbath and is resurreted some time during the night hours of the first day beore Sunrise. (The Jewish day begins at sundown) exactly 3 days and thre nights.

 

[lilymarie]

Jesus did change the inner person, by giving us his spirit. Just as this change results in our having a new desire to live according to his instructions and his own life example, it should also provoke in us a desire to live sexually pure, and to also pay atention to anything else God says we are to do.

All of these laws are to do with sanctification, making a people who can represent him in the earth, and just as we would rejet a minister who was a pervert, we should also recognize that a minister who does not have control of his appitites for food is not living by the spirit either.

The laws about sexual purity is is Leviticus 18 and the food laws are mostly in Lev 11.


Sanctification

Paul says the Tanakh (Old Testament) is to be used for training in righteousness to prepare us for all good works. He says that the word (Law) is the washing of regeneration for sanctification. (my paraphrase.) I thought maybe some simple examples of Sanctification through law might help.

God says I want you redeemed people to represent me in the earth as a testimony of who I am. In order to do this you must be holy as I am holy. Your way of living must be set apart and righteous and not like those nations of lost Pagan out there I want you to witness to. And so he sets down guiding lines so that we know the difference between what is holy and what is unholy. He takes the common, that which is typical of all men and makes it into a holy act. Consider these examples.

Time is continuous. Every day is just another day. A dog does not know what day it is. Neither does a slave. Every day is a work day. So God Sanctifies time in a special way making divisions that make the continuous time line into segments and divides them further in to holy and regular days.
The week he divides into Sabbath (rest) and the other six for common work. He divides the month with the Rosh Kodesh. He divides the year into holy days and special sabbaths or festivals like Pesac, First fruits, shavuot, ect. Then he divides the cycles into Sabbaticals of 7 years when lands are rested and the cycle of sabbaticals into Jubilees. So through this there are common times and Holy times. These are all Sabbaths. Without Sabbath we are all slaves or like animals.

Sex is a universal human trait. We can have sex any time we want with whomever we choose and allow sex to be the same as any other animal. But God says there is holy sex and unholy. He defines who can be a sex partner and who can not. He sanctifies sex through marriage making something common into something sacred. Without marriage and purity laws we are all like common animals.

There are all sorts of things to eat that will not harm you. An animal will eat anything he finds. And the unrighteous man will eat anything. But God once again defines what is food and what is not food through Kosher food laws, There are clean and unclean. There are times of feasting and times of fasting. So now we have some restrictions but we also have a holy way of eating. We are not controlled by our appetites, we control our appetites. So through Gods laws the common act of eating is made into a holy act.

God can be worshipped in many different ways. A look at the many Pagan practices which incorporated brutality human sacrifice, temple sex, debauchery and degradation can serve as an example of diversity. But God says, you are not to worship me as the Pagans worship their Gods. And so he tells us what is the holy way of worship and what is an abomination to him. He sanctifies our worship through his law.

He teaches us how to give charity in a holy way. How to help others in a holy way. How to bless others even our enemies and turn conflict into holy forgiveness.

And so on it goes. The law takes what is common and routine and carves out of that a way of holiness, sanctifying, making holy things that would otherwise be common. And no-one explained the law and how to apply it to out lives better than Yeshua. Throughout the Gospels and especially in Matt Chapters 5-7 we see Torah teaching according to the Lord himself, the one who gave us the law. Today even in Rabbinical schools the Gospels are studied because the Torah teaching of Yeshua is the pinnacle of understanding. We who have been saved by his grace through messiah do not give legalistic service to the law as had become the custom during 2nd temple times. Our lives are changed having the Torah of God written on our inward parts and the spirit given to guide us into all truth. So now those things that we desire to do we should discover, with no surprise, are the same things that are contained in the law. By this process the Lord prepares us for his coming, showing us our lives compared to the commandment within our hearts “ That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.”

I think this is an awesome and humbling post.

Thank you for sharing.

The Lord has opened my heart greatly to Messianics... as there are so many keys to the truth here.

However Charles, I'm sure you know that most Christians will not agree nor understand you.

I do, however, because The Lord has been dealing with me wonderfully in this area.

Thank you again for sharing.

I feel peace in my heart for some reason after reading your post.

 

[Charles YTK]

Thank you. What you are feeling I am quite familiar with. It is the assurace that God is simply and perfectly God and not this changable hard to understand, always changing his mind God that some seem to extract from missusing the scriptures. There is a wonderful flow of agreement throughout the word if we just read it and quite trying to wrestle with it. At least that has been my experience.

Blesings to you,

Charles

 

[intricatic]

My point in the post is this:

Both the laws of sexual morality and the laws of clean and unclean food are from God's law in Leviticus. If christians bring judgment against homosexuality based on the law, then they can not turn around and say the dietary laws are abolished because they are the same laws from the same God. It is inconsistent to call homosexual (and other deviant sexual practices) sin without also admitting that eating pork, shell-fish, worms, rats and snakes is also sin. We can't pick laws we like and abolish the ones we don't like. God has told us what is food and what s not food. God has told us what is good normal sexual function and what is not normal or approved, (like sex with a near relation)

Christians do not bring judgement against homosexuals. The ethical statements of the Law are still standards by which we measure 'living righteously'. The dietary Law; use common sense and do not eat things that are unhealthy. Is it a legal precedent? Nope. The sexual purity Law; sex is a holy institute given by God as an expression of love between a husband and wife. Is it a legal precedent? Nope. Are there punishment being prescribed for one and not the other? By some, but far from universally.

Essentially; The Law, as a form of civil code and absolute standard of purity was symbolic in representation of what Christ would bring to life - the Law, and living under it is living under death.

 

[Charles YTK]

Ro 3: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

RO 2: [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,

Gods standard remains. It is a piece of who he is. To take awy from the law takes away from the picture of who God is. We are no longer subject to the penalty the law required for our sin, because Yeshua in his mercy took the penalty part upon himself for us so that we would be free to live in him.