The "Final Authority" = the Bible

[ETide]

No saint is self proclaimed. Fact is a saint would never admit to being a saint because they are much to humble.

Yet they accept titles such as His All Holiness..

Now that's humility.. lol

 

[orthodoxy]

Well, according to some catholics on this forum and from what I went on to study, they believe they are the one true church because the catholic church teaches if you leave the catholic church or are not part of the RCC, you have to go to purgatory to wait for God to judge you.

That makes it more like a church based on terror and fear, and that's not what Christ intended his church to be.

This is a Gospel of good news, not enslavary.

We give our hearts to Jesus and follow his way because we love him and we believe he is the sinless lamb of God.

Oh yes, hear this, anyone not of the catholic church has to go to purgatory to await judgment for not being part of the catholic church.

Oookie dookie.

Here's the scripture about John, and this references to John the Baptist, not John the Apostle. Other scriptures can back this up, too.

(Luke 7:28 NIV) I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Well, according to some catholics on this forum and from what I went on to study, they believe they are the one true church because the catholic church teaches if you leave the catholic church or are not part of the RCC, you have to go to purgatory to wait for God to judge you.

The Orthodox Church is not part of the RCC.

That makes it more like a church based on terror and fear, and that's not what Christ intended his church to be.

But saying if one doesnt accept jesus into their heart or they go to hell is not using fear tactics?

This is a Gospel of good news, not enslavary.

The Good news is the Lord has mercy and came to save sinners like me who is first of these sinners in need of His mercy.

We give our hearts to Jesus and follow his way because we love him and we believe he is the sinless lamb of God.

How can you judge the hearts of Roman Catholics so harshly? Do you know their hearts?

Oh yes, hear this, anyone not of the catholic church has to go to purgatory to await judgment for not being part of the catholic church.

That is not an Orthodox teaching and never was so you are falsely accusing us of something we dont believe. The writer of this post is asking about the Orthodox Church not the Roman Catholic Church. I think you have the 2 confused.

Oookie dookie.

A little history lesson would clear up the confusion between the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Roman broke away from the 4 eastern patriarchs in 1054 ad officially.

Here's the scripture about John, and this references to John the Baptist, not John the Apostle. Other scriptures can back this up, too.

(Luke 7:28 NIV) I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Do you worship John the baptist as the greatest prophet?

kyril

 

[jad123]

Well, according to some catholics on this forum and from what I went on to study, they believe they are the one true church because the catholic church teaches if you leave the catholic church or are not part of the RCC, you have to go to purgatory to wait for God to judge you.

That makes it more like a church based on terror and fear, and that's not what Christ intended his church to be.

This is a Gospel of good news, not enslavary.

We give our hearts to Jesus and follow his way because we love him and we believe he is the sinless lamb of God.

Oh yes, hear this, anyone not of the catholic church has to go to purgatory to await judgment for not being part of the catholic church.

Oookie dookie.

Here's the scripture about John, and this references to John the Baptist, not John the Apostle. Other scriptures can back this up, too.

(Luke 7:28 NIV) I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

If I am not mistaken Catholic teaching on Purgatory has nothing to do with whether you are or are not part of the Catholic church. Catholics themselves must go to Purgator to be cleansed.

To my Catholic friends, if my interpretation of this is wrong, I apologize.

 

[orthodoxy]

God the Father does:


Ps 138:2 - Show Context I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

And Jesus would agree with the Father.

Excuse me that does not say anything about the bible. Are you saying "thy word" means the bible? What about the words that come from the mouth of God in the face of Jesus Christ? I am certain He did not regergitate ink and wood plup.


The church of Christ will abide by the written word of God. The Bible does NOT teach that the church is the final authority, it's being read into the Scripture. That wouldn't even be logical or have common sense. The Bible is the word of God and it's the truth therefore what it says is the final authority and Christ's true church will be grounded in that truth and uphold that truth.

Read Matthew 18, Jesus is plainly saying that all disputes should be brought before the Church. In Acts 1 they brought the issue of replacing Judas before the Church. In Acts 15 the same goes for the issue of circumcision. Are you telling me these "councils of the Church" are not valid but the Book that records the actions of the Church take presidence over the very Church that made the decisions?


The church is NOT Jesus Christ, nor is it God. The church (all Christians) is the bride of Jesus Christ and His body. Jesus spent a lot of time saying "it is written", not "the church says." Jesus Christ is never going to contradict the written word of God. They go hand in hand and one won't contradict the other.

Acts 8:3, But Saul began to destroy the church.

Acts 9:4-5, He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the CHURCH, Which is his BODY, the FULNESS OF HIM that filleth all in all.

Apparently you disagree with the Final Authority you proclaim.


I don't see any such thing in the Bible as popes. Protestants make the Father in heaven their papa, we're not our own papa/pope.

Basically, it's certain churches who want to have the final authority and power over people and make the word of God subject to them. If your prefer to believe your church has final authority on what's true and what isn't, I can't stop you. But I won't join you.

Here's a very good article someone shared with me for anyone who might care to read it:


http://www.bereanbeacon.org/CertaintyWrittenWordTruth.html


Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Best erase this verse from the final authority.


Joh 17:17 - Show Context Sanctify them through thytruth: thywordistruth.

Notice that it's the word that is the truth, not the church. It doesn't say "thy church is truth." The word is the authority and the church is to uphold that word. And any church that doesn't is in error.

But it does say the Church is the truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"

You have made the oral words of God into a book of ink and plup where Jesus Christ never intended an inanimate object to take the place of men in His Church.

the unworthy,

kyril

 

[orthodoxy]

Yet they accept titles such as His All Holiness..

Now that's humility.. lol

Holiness mean "set apart" not lord over all.

I dont know any Orthodox priest or bishop that has set himself up as lord over me. I willingly "obey and submit to those over me in the Church as commanded by Paul in Hebrews 13:17.

Tell me how you obey this command?

the unworthy

kyril

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Well the Roman Emperers did as they killed every Pope for the first 300 years.

There were no "Popes" first the first 300 years. There were bishops of Metropolitans, Rome being just one.

Testimony even from Roman Emperers.

​

Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian III (450) speak of "the primacy of the Apostolic See (Rome), made firm on account of the merits of Peter, Chief of the Corona of Bishops" (Inter ep Leon I, Vol XI, col 637)​

Since there are so many fabrications and forgeries surrounding the Roman Catholic claims of primacy and the Roman Catholic penchant for creating false history, I hope you are not offended that your citation is not accepted without strict scrutiny.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Holiness mean "set apart" not lord over all.

I dont know any Orthodox priest or bishop that has set himself up as lord over me. I willingly "obey and submit to those over me in the Church as commanded by Paul in Hebrews 13:17.

Tell me how you obey this command?

the unworthy

kyril

The facts of history demonstrate with full assurance that the Councils of Nicea, Chalcedon and Constantinople dispelled any notion of any "supreme pontiff".

Even the autocratic title, "His Holiness", etc, and "pontificus maximus", or "Vicar of Christ", or "supreme pontiff", is directly contrary to Christian Charity and the teaching of Christ that the greatest would be the servant of all, and not a lord over all as is fraudulent claimed by the church of Rome.

 

[ETide]

Holiness mean "set apart" not lord over all.

Holiness is purity within.. although the point is that you're speaking of humility with respect to saints not acknowledging themselves as saints.. and yet men would accept a title like this..? ?

I dont know any Orthodox priest or bishop that has set himself up as lord over me. I willingly "obey and submit to those over me in the Church as commanded by Paul in Hebrews 13:17.

This has nothing to do with the fact of the matter.. again, you're speaking of humility and yet this man has a title of His All Holiness...

The Apostle Paul knew what a wretched man he was, and yet this man is called His All Holiness..

Tell me how you obey this command?

I glady accept those who are over me in Christ.. especially elders in our assembly.. yet not a one of them would allow any person to call them His All Holiness.. that would be ridiculous..

Those who have the LIGHT of Christ in them understand that sin exists in our members.. and while we're called to be holy, as HE is holy.. there's not a Christian that I know of who would accept such a title as this..

 

[orthodoxy]

In fact I would say that God let the Catholic church pass into corruption according to plan and then inspired the Protestant reformation for just this reason. Some like to say that God is not a God of confusion, but they would be very wrong. The breaking up of the church is entirely consistent with God's policy with mankind since the Flood. Man's fundamental problem is the failure to take responsibility for things (passing the buck and all that) and it seems that when men organize, this tendency is greatly amplified.

quote]

I take it you are in a sinless Church. Do you believe this scripture?
Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come,
but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM SCANDAL DOES COME!"
Matthew 18:7

And He said to His disciples, "It is IMPOSSIBLE THAT SCANDALS SHOULD NOT COME;
BUT WOE TO HIM THROUGH WHOM THEY COME."
Luke 17:1
These are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Did he say the Church is the source, or the cause of the scandals? No, He said a man (or woman, to be politically correct for the time of the Gospel writing) is. Remember, the Catholic Church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners (Mark 2:17)I also believe Jesus when He said this abou His Church.

"I am with you ALL days, even until the end of the world."
Matthew 28:20

"...and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18

"...a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church, BEING HIMSELF SAVIOR OF THE BODY."
Ephesians 5:23
Isn't Saint Paul saying that Jesus Christ is the Savior of His Church here?
Well then, just who are you fighting against anyway?

most unfortunate that the heterodox world sees the Holy Spirit in the Church as such a colossal failure that He cannot keep an protect His Church throughout the ages in spite of men and women.

I guess we need to thank Luther for restoring Jesus's failed Church to its original form He was not able to keep from the gates of hell.....

A true sign of arrogance is saying one, anyone is a "reformer" of His Church.

IMHO Jesus Christ is not a failure nor will He ever be. His Church needs no reforming, retooling, remaking or "new and improved" americanism.

Again no one has shown me on Scripture where Jesus Christ sent, ordained or "set apart" a book to preach His gospel. Nor can I find any evidance that Jesus replaced men with a book.

kyril

 

[orthodoxy]

Okay, I'm sorry for asking an unclear question. Is God the source of the Scriptures, or are the Scriptures the source of God? Whichever is the source is the authority. The created cannot be greater than the creator.

Apparently Jesus Christ came after the scripture thus there is was a time when Jesus Christ did not exist as the Son of God.

This is Arianism at it's heart.

Was Jesus Christ created before the Scripture or were the Scriptures created before Jesus Christ?

an interesting twist in christian understanding, thus is the problem when one makes "thy word" into a book.

kyril

 

[ETide]

an interesting twist in christian understanding, thus is the problem when one makes "thy word" into a book.

kyril

Christians love and respect the living and abiding word of God as it is contained in the scriptures because in the volume of the book it is written of Me.. says the LORD..

It is God's testimony concerning His only begotten and beloved Son..

It is because of the incorruptible word of God that we're born again.. it is the living and powerful and effectual word of God which sanctifies us.. which washes us..

We're to live not by bread alone.. but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God..

The scriptures are God breathed..they're living and powerful..and so the words of men pale in comparison.. they're as the grass that fadeth away..

 

[orthodoxy]

[/COLOR][/FONT]

So the RC denomination self-claims...
So do some other denominations...
None has substantiated the self-claim in any way other than by using their self-claims to support their self-claims as arbitrated by themself.




You seem to assume that He "founded" an institution - and of course, it's you. I see no evidence that He "founded" any institution at all.

A denomination is a group of congregations that are associated together - usually under a name and administrative structure - and usually with a common defined creed. Typically there is an institutional structure of accountability and authority. Now, if you want to insist that every one of the world's tens of thousands of Catholic parishes are completely independent of one another - not under any magisterium or authority, there's no common name they share, no common adminsitrative struture, the clergy in each is accountable to no one or nothing outside the individual congregation, there is no common creed among them, unless St. Peter's Catholic Church and St. Francis Catholic Church near me have NOTHING to do with each other (and just randomly happened to choose "Catholic" in their name), then they are not nondenomination. They are a part of a denomination. Now, if you want to make the point that origianlly there was only one denomination - you can TRY to make that, but there's precious little beyond self-claims to support it and then we'd need to decide which today is that denomination (the OO and EO have a better claim to it, IMO), and we'd need to see where Jesus clearly have all Authority to that denomination.


Back to the topic?


Pax


- Josiah

it appears to me that you are just one that keeps taking the thread off topic.

I will state the topic of this thread for you....

where did Jesus Christ ordain and send a book to preach His gospel?

worded another way....

Where did God remove the eternal Ordaination provided to 12 men in John 15:16 by His Son, Jesus Christ, and place this eternal ordination on the Scriptures?

worded another way...

where did God send a book after Jesus Christ, the Son of God, sent 11 men in the same manner as the Father sent Him to preach His gospel as stated in John 20:21-23?

the unworthy

kyril

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Catholics themselves must go to Purgator to be cleansed.

LOL. Odd that only Roman Catholics go to purgatory.

Pray tell me, what part of 1 John 1 do you not understand?

1 John 1;

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Roman Catholicism prefers it's "traditions" over the plain word of God and the Apostles.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My perspective...

most unfortunate that the heterodox world sees the Holy Spirit in the Church as such a colossal failure

Well, I have no idea about the heterodox, but I don't see the Spirit OR the church as a failure.


I just don't view any particular denomination as the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. I believe that all Christians are people and that the Christian church is people.

And I don't view the Holy Spirit working only, soly in a particular institution. Not even in one that self-claims that He does (in itself, of course).

I guess we need to thank Luther for restoring Jesus's failed Church to its original form He was not able to keep from the gates of hell.....

When the Pope excommunicated Luther, spliting that denomination, the Pope did not render the Creed a lie, nor Holy Scriptures. I believe in "ONE holy CATHOLIC and apostolic church." The Pope didn't destroy the church - he cannot, no matter how many he excommunications he proclaims or what he self-claims for himself or what the RC denomination self-claims (or any other).


Yes, Christians can storm the gates of hell. How an institution would do that or what that has to do with the subject of this thread or with the RC denomination or any other, I don't know.

IMHO Jesus Christ is not a failure nor will He ever be. His Church needs no reforming, retooling, remaking or "new and improved" americanization.

I agree that Jesus Christ is not a failure.
What that has to do with any denomination or institution or with this thread is beyond me.


Christianity needs no retooling or remaking, but institutions are in nearly constant need of reforming. I suspect that any institution egotistical enough to self-claim it has no faults whatsoever has a HUGE need for reformation.


We've been warned repeatedly of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists, those that lead many astray. We've been told to "test the spirits." That suggests accountability to most, it seems to suggest self-claims of infallibility and unaccountability to a handful of teachers.

Again no one has shown me on Scripture where Jesus Christ sent, ordained or "set apart" a book to preach His gospel. Nor can I find any evidance that Jesus replaced men with a book.

I know of no one that says He did.

What some disagree with is that self is the sole arbiter for self base on the norm of the teachings chosen by self as interpreted and applied by self, and that self is infallible since self so self-claims. Some see this as self-authenticating.



Thank you.



pax



- Josiah

 

[orthodoxy]

Christians love and respect the living and abiding word of God as it is contained in the scriptures because in the volume of the book it is written of Me.. says the LORD..

It is God's testimony concerning His only begotten and beloved Son..

It is because of the incorruptible word of God that we're born again.. it is the living and powerful and effectual word of God which sanctifies us.. which washes us..

We're to live not by bread alone.. but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God..

The scriptures are God breathed..they're living and powerful..and so the words of men pale in comparison.. they're as the grass that fadeth away..

if you burned every bible on the planet the Church would remain.

So much for the "grass that does not fade away". This is the problem with the heterodox, you have no faith without a book telling you what it is that you have faith in for if the bible was taken away you would be lost.

I will state the topic of this thread for you....

where did Jesus Christ ordain and send a book to preach His gospel?

worded another way....

Where did God remove the eternal Ordaination provided to 12 men in John 15:16 by His Son, Jesus Christ, and place this eternal ordination on the Scriptures?

worded another way...

where did God send a book after Jesus Christ, the Son of God, sent 11 men in the same manner as the Father sent Him to preach His gospel as stated in John 20:21-23?

kyril

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

where did Jesus Christ ordain and send a book to preach His gospel?

The very fact that the Apostles saw fit to write the New Testament that the very earliest of the Church Fathers, including Polycarp, Ignatius, Pappias, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, etc called; "Sacred Scriptures" and recognized as being "Inspired of God"(thus Jesus since Jesus Is God) is ample evidence of that ordaination.

 

[Trento]

[/size]

There were no "Popes" first the first 300 years. There were bishops of Metropolitans, Rome being just one.

Since there are so many fabrications and forgeries surrounding the Roman Catholic claims of primacy and the Roman Catholic penchant for creating false history, I hope you are not offended that your citation is not accepted without strict scrutiny.​

The fabrications and false History perpetuated by you on these threads have been Exposed and you standing with quicksand under the feet. (Example below) Every word that comes forth from the heart will be judged.



Originally Posted by Augustine_Was_Calvinist
The severe problem with so much of what Roman Catholics call "tradition", especially as it pertains to the papacy and asserted primacy of the Roman bishop, are nothing more than fabrications that come from forgeries such as the Pseudo-Isodorian Decretals, the "liber pontificalis", "The Donation of Constantine", and other such forged documents, which were used by Gratian in his "Decretum", and duped Thomas Aquinas into basing his "Against the Errors of the Greeks", which contained the lies of forgery from the Pseudo-Isodorian Decretals", falsely and fraudulently ascribing quotes to Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria and Maximus the Abbot that made it appear they were espousing Roman primacy, when in reality, the quotes were forged, and contrived by Roman officials to falsely present the "ancient" case for Roman primacy.[/quote]







{Quote] Trento

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pseudo-Isidore is the pseudonym given to the scholar or group of scholars responsible for the most extensive and influential set of forgeries found in medieval Canon law. The works, produced during the mid-ninth century in north-eastern France, have been universally recognized as a set of forgeries by both Roman Catholic and Protestant scholars for well over a century.
With the Donation of Constantine and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the corpus of the "Pseudo-Isidore" is one of the three most persuasive forgeries in the history of the West.


Pseudo-Isidore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

 

[ETide]

where did Jesus Christ ordain and send a book to preach His gospel?

[bible]1 Peter 4:11[/bible]

What are the oracles of God to you folks..?

 

[orthodoxy]

You have confused me to the point of spinning.

Scripture is the final authority in this way, anything claimed to be Christian doctrine, must not contradict scripture.

Is this difficult?

Let me write it another way,

If a doctrine contradicts scripture, then it is false.

Lets make this an argument,

God preached the Good News to men. These men and their followers wrote down what God said. What is written down is called scripture. Therefore, to know what God has said, people read scripture. If someone says God said something, and this something contradicts what is in scripture, then God didn't say it.

Well it is difficult because Jesus Christ ordained 12 men in John 15:16 and sent 11 men in John 20:21-23.

The heterodox are contradicting scripture when they deny the Church and it's "ordained" and "sent" councils of Holy Spirit filled men.

That is the point of the thread. Where did Jesus Christ abandon these God ordained and God sent men and replace their authority, even to forgive sins, to a book?

the unworthy

kyril

 

[orthodoxy]

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." -Titus 3:9-11

then stay off the thread because you just strayed off topic