What would be the evidence for ex nihilo creation?

[AV1611VET]

Some contend that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) --- could evidence be shown?

 

[:æ:]

Some contend that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) --- could evidence be shown?

I think the very idea of a state of nothingness existing is incoherent. "Nothing" is a complete lack of existence. It doesn't make sense to say that a complete lack of existence... existed.

Furthermore, it is usually presupposed that God existed, and unless I'm very mistaken about usual conceptualizations of the Christian God, He is not "nothing." So, even if only that God existed, it would not be true to say that nothing existed.

 

[JohnR7]

Some contend that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) --- could evidence be shown?

It all has to start somewhere. Otherwise it would not be here now. The Bible says that in the Beginning was God. So God is a part of the beginning.

Rev. 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi, :æ: --- very nice to meet you

I think the very idea of a state of nothingness existing is incoherent. "Nothing" is a complete lack of existence.

I agree.

It doesn't make sense to say that a complete lack of existence... existed.

Again, I agree --- but only because there's no known way to express that in the English language.

Furthermore, it is usually presupposed that God existed, and unless I'm very mistaken about usual conceptualizations of the Christian God, He is not "nothing."

God is self-existent.

So, even if only that God existed, it would not be true to say that nothing existed.

Technically, yes.

 

[fromdownunder]

Some contend that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) --- could evidence be shown?

Are you asking for scientific evidence? And, if so, is the evidence you are requesting for, or against, ex nihilo creation.

I would say that in either case the answer is no, not at the present time, and possibly not ever.

But since you appear to be making the claim that the Universe was specifically made by the God espoused in the KJV version of the Bible, it is up to you to provide the evidence for this statement.

Otherwise this is simply a statement of faith (which I have no problem with), and not a scientific discussion.

Norm

 

[Opethian]

First off, god is supposed to be a supernatural entity, so it is impossible to find evidence that would support a divine ex nihilo creation of the universe, since science and scientific evidence does not deal with the supernatural. Second of all, even if you do, you're still left with the problem of how that god came into being. If you're going to say "god is special, he has always existed, he doesn't need a creator", you might as well say that the universe is special, that it doesn't need a creator, and has always existed, and that god is in essence a methaphor for the universe and everything it spawned. God is not the creator, god is a creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you asking for scientific evidence?

Yes --- but I'll accept anything.

And, if so, is the evidence you are requesting for, or against, ex nihilo creation.

Either.

I would say that in either case the answer is no, not at the present time, and possibly not ever.

I agree.

But since you appear to be making the claim that the Universe was specifically made by the God espoused in the KJV version of the Bible, it is up to you to provide the evidence for this statement.

[bible]Job 26:7[/bible]

Otherwise this is simply a statement of faith (which I have no problem with), and not a scientific discussion.

I get a good statement of faith in every once in awhile.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you're going to say "god is special, he has always existed, he doesn't need a creator", you might as well say that the universe is special, that it doesn't need a creator, and has always existed, and that god is in essence a methaphor for the universe and everything it spawned. God is not the creator, god is a creation.

I believe this is exactly what Stephen Hawking said --- even he had no problem with a self-existent universe.

 

[fromdownunder]

AV, a bible verse is not scientific evidence.

Norm

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, a bible verse is not scientific evidence.

And that's exactly what I'm asking for in my OP --- could evidence exist for ex nihilo creation?

I personally don't think there is any --- other than what I'm standing on, and breathing, and seeing, etc., but for the act itself, it is, IMO, impossible to prove scientifically.

 

[fromdownunder]

And that's exactly what I'm asking for in my OP --- could evidence exist for ex nihilo creation?

I personally don't think there is any --- other than what I'm standing on, and breathing, and seeing, etc., but for the act itself, it is, IMO, impossible to prove scientifically.

I will add, or disprove (I mean falsify by that statement)!

I agree. And I do not know of anybody who is not smoking some rather wierd stuff who would disagree.

So what was the purpose of your OP?

Norm

 

[Oonna]

Does ex nihilo agree or disagree with the KJV? If it does, why are you asking for evidence, since you already believe it to be true? If it dosent, why are you asking for evidence when any that ever could be shown to you..you wouldnt believe anyways?

 

[AV1611VET]

Does ex nihilo agree or disagree with the KJV? If it does, why are you asking for evidence, since you already believe it to be true? If it dosent, why are you asking for evidence when any that ever could be shown to you..you wouldnt believe anyways?

Because when I hear people say stuff like:

• show me evidence for [whatever]

I tend to think that person already knows we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[Oonna]

Because when I hear people say stuff like:

• show me evidence for [whatever]

I tend to think that person already knows we walk by faith, not by sight.

Then what the heck is the point of this thread??

 

[Chalnoth]

Well, if we try to ask about this scientifically, we would start with the simplest assumptions.

So imagine we take an ex nihilo creation event 6000 years ago. The evidence of such an event would be a total lack of any history before 6000 years. The disproof of ex nihilo creation, then, would be evidence of history prior to 6000 years ago.

Since we have evidence of history out to about 13.7 billion years, then the most obvious ex nihilo creation theory is completely and utterly ruled out.

The only plausible explanation that could save ex nihilo creation would be a deceiver god, one who embeds history in creation. This explanation should be rejected on two grounds:
1. It is not scientifically testable, and thus a pointless explanation.
2. It is theologically undesirable: who wants to believe in a deceiver god?

Thus ex nihilo creation should be discounted out of hand as a poor concept.

 

[fromdownunder]

Well, if we try to ask about this scientifically, we would start with the simplest assumptions.

So imagine we take an ex nihilo creation event 6000 years ago. The evidence of such an event would be a total lack of any history before 6000 years. The disproof of ex nihilo creation, then, would be evidence of history prior to 6000 years ago.

Since we have evidence of history out to about 13.7 billion years, then the most obvious ex nihilo creation theory is completely and utterly ruled out.

The only plausible explanation that could save ex nihilo creation would be a deceiver god, one who embeds history in creation. This explanation should be rejected on two grounds:
1. It is not scientifically testable, and thus a pointless explanation.
2. It is theologically undesirable: who wants to believe in a deceiver god?

Thus ex nihilo creation should be discounted out of hand as a poor concept.

Well, to play devil's advocate here, this is not an argument against ex nihilo creation, it is only an argument againt a specific claim by YECs that the earth is only 6,000 years old, based on a book written by people who had no understanding of the nature of the universe.

It does not falsifiy any deity, including the various versions of the Judeo/Islamic/Christian God, the IPU (bless her pinkness), the FSM, or Zeus for that matter.

Norm

 

[Dragar]

If no observation can falsify a theory, you can have no evidence for that theory.

 

[fromdownunder]

If no observation can falsify a theory, you can have no evidence for that theory.

Correct. I have exactly the same amount of evidence that the IPU created the Universe as AV has that the God espoused in the KJV Bible created the Universe.

Norm

 

[Chalnoth]

Well, to play devil's advocate here, this is not an argument against ex nihilo creation, it is only an argument againt a specific claim by YECs that the earth is only 6,000 years old, based on a book written by people who had no understanding of the nature of the universe.

It does not falsifiy any deity, including the various versions of the Judeo/Islamic/Christian God, the IPU (bless her pinkness), the FSM, or Zeus for that matter.

Very true. But AV1611VET seems to believe the Earth was created ex nihilo 6000 years ago, and so I decided that I would combat that particular idea. And yes, this doesn't falsify any diety, either.

 

[Tomk80]

Some contend that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) --- could evidence be shown?

Yes. If a history was missing from the earth and the universe, this would show creation ex nihilo. Which is immediately it's falsification. We can show that our earth and universe have an extremely long history, so if creation ex nihilo had taken place, the only place to put it as far as I can see would at the start of the big bang, some 13 billion years ago.