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What is the evidence for creationism?

mark kennedy

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I see many threads in C&E discussing evolution. Creationists seem to spend a lot of time explaining why the theory of evolution doesn't work, but I don't see much information here explaining the evidence for creationism or how it works.

Evidence is sort of like a jigsaw puzzle, if you can find enough pieces that fit together, eventually you can start to see a comprehensive explanation of what you're trying to figure out, even with some pieces missing here and there.

So, I'm asking creationists to stop debunking evolution for a moment and explain to me why the theory of creationism works. Walk me through it step by step in layman's terms, explaining what the evidence is and how it fits together to form a comprehensive explanation of an omnipotent being creating everything.

No problem, you will need a working understanding of the laws of inheritance and a criteria for determining the historicity of an event.
 
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JohnR7

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In that context, I don't feel that Creationism is on the same standing as is the theory of evolution.
Because Christians do not spend time working on Creation Science to develop it they way they should. The theory of Evolution is a lot more developed because so many people spend time on developing it. That and they try to include things like Genetics as a part of evolution, when Genetics has nothing to do with it. Darwin associated with the theory of evolution, and Mendal did the work on genetics. Darwin never even bothered to read Mendals book.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Because Christians do not spend time working on Creation Science to develop it they way they should.

Because there's not much to develop. Poking holes into strawmen of the ToE only gets you so far...

The theory of Evolution is a lot more developed because so many people spend time on developing it.

Facts and evidence tend to get developed quickly like that.

That and they try to include things like Genetics as a part of evolution, when Genetics has nothing to do with it. Darwin associated with the theory of evolution, and Mendal did the work on genetics. Darwin never even bothered to read Mendals book.

Actually true. Darwin knew nothing of genetics when he proposed the theory of Natural Selection, and when knowledge of genetics (which came later into mainstream biology) supported Darwin, it was a great boon for the ToE.
 
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Elduran

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"I see no evidence here."

To be honest, I believe no matter what evidence creationists find, you may still say "I see no evidence".

So, is there really a reason why we should post here?
But creationists haven't found any evidence, which is why scientists tend to say that there is no evidence for creationism.

The fact is that very few (if any) creationists actually go looking for support for their hypotheses, and as such they're never likely to come up with anythign but bad arguments against well-supported science.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Huh? What you just said automatically places Creationism on entirely different standing from the theory of evolution. Adherents of every religion on Earth believe that evolutionary theory is a valid theory with strong supportig evidence (i.e. the truth).

I said:
In that context, I don't feel that Creationism is on the same standing as is the theory of evolution. I was presenting what I feel is a reasonable accounting of the Creation narrative with what we have as evidence in the universe



Then you say that it automatically places Creationism on entirely different standing from ToE. Are we not saying the same thing here?

As far as every religion on Earth believing in ToE, I would have to disagree. I don't think that some of the eastern religions support evolution.


'True' belief in evolutionary theory is not blind belief, but tentative belief based upon evidence, subject to disproval (however unlikely) upon the discovery of new evidence (blind belief is, of course, possible, but is against the culture of science).

Who said anything about blind belief?
Belief in Creationism is, by definition, blind, because there is zero evidence outside the Bible for the Biblical creation account.

I just gave some. So it can't be zero now can it? ;)
 
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Oncedeceived

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Are you saying that creationism is not scientific?

I am saying that Creationism is the foundation on which Science can be based upon.

Wrong, as shown by the numerous TEs on this forum alone.
TE's do not believe in a literal reading of the Bible. My point was personal though, so I wasn't generalizing.
Well, glad we finally cleared that up. The only thing creationism is on the same standing is astrology.

Oh, please.:D Creationism is the process in Which God created. Genesis 1 is the narrative for that process.

Where? I only saw some Genesis verses, interpreted so as to fit random scientific theories and observation.

So? I see that all the time in explaining processes in the world. Why should this be any different?
So if there is only one set, so to say, of evidence, and this said evidence points in a particular direction from every way you look at it, why not accept that?

That is not the case.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Because Christians do not spend time working on Creation Science to develop it they way they should. The theory of Evolution is a lot more developed because so many people spend time on developing it. That and they try to include things like Genetics as a part of evolution, when Genetics has nothing to do with it. Darwin associated with the theory of evolution, and Mendal did the work on genetics. Darwin never even bothered to read Mendals book.

I don't really think that "Creation Science" exists. I think that Science or at least research and testing should be unbiased in all aspects. I don't think that Science is evolutions exclusive territory.
 
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TeddyKGB

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I am saying that Creationism is the foundation on which Science can be based upon.
That is an interesting statement. I had no idea creationism has such broad implications.
 
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truthmonger89

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No problem, you will need a working understanding of the laws of inheritance and a criteria for determining the historicity of an event.

Well, we'll see if I can understand it or not, why don't you give it a go. Also, if you can, please try to explain the evidence or validation method used when people first proposed the theory of creationism, what would you say, about 2000 years ago, give or take?

To be honest, I'm not really a full-on academic type or member of the intelligentsia, so I had to do a little research to figure out what the laws of inheritance are. All the information I can find indicates that the laws of inheritance are closely associated with the study of genetics. So, once again we run into the problem we had a little while ago with the other guy who presented genetics as evidence of creationism. The basic concepts of genetics and the laws of inheritance were only realized approximately 150 years ago at most, but the theory of creationism was proposed long before that. So the most important task you need to accomplish first is to explain how the theory of creationism was conceptualized and validated in the first place when they weren't aware of any evidence for it. What did creationists use to validate their theory in the centuries preceeding the discovery of the evidence for it?
 
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Oncedeceived

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If you tried to base science on a foundation of a conclusion, it would cease to be science.

Science in the worldview of the unbeliever and the Christian both rest on the same thing; unfortunately, the unbeliever doesn't recognize this. A Christian believes that as God created the universe in an intelligible form the laws and processes are able to be studied due to this foundation. The Christian holds a preconceived or presuppositional view of creation and the Creator.

The unbeliever on one hand studies this intelligible form with its uniformity of nature and coherence of all things in the world knowing that without this foundation it would be impossible to make sense of the world; but on the other hand refusing to believe that it was Created.

So the Christian holds a worldveiw that reasons for the reason in the world while the unbeliever reasons without reason to believe there is a reason to believe that the world is reasonable for a reason.

So, according to your comment, "If you tried to base science on a foundation of a conclusion, it would cease to be science" calls into question your assumption that it is the Christian worldveiw that holds the conclusion. Science by its own creed presupposes the preconceived premise that all things must be viewed as natural rather than supernatural. The foundation of Science is based on the conclusion that all things can be tested, can be known and can be intellectually conceived. Without a world that is cohesive and uniform Science would have no foundation and without coherent knowledge Science would never be possible.

So my comment that Science has its foundation in Creationism is based on the fact that in the Christian worldview the world is intelligently designed to be known by its uniformity and laws. The Christian worldview holds that knowledge and reason come from an intelligent God in which we were made in the image thereof.

So you hold conclusions based on your preconceived presuppositional worldview just as much as I do.
 
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truthmonger89

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The Christian holds a preconceived or presuppositional view of creation and the Creator.
That would be an assumption, right?

...but on the other hand refusing to believe that it was Created.

Refusing to believe something implies that one is in denial of reality, however, creationists have consistently failed to provide any proof, evidence, or compelling argument to demonstrate that a creator exists in reality. The entire argument for the existence of a creator hinges upon a single unproven, self-refuting assumption. The sheer absurdity of their argument is made abundantly clear by the various parodies of Flying Spaghetti Monster and IPU, etc., but they never seem to recognize the egregious fallacy upon which their entire argument sits. If God made everything, what made God? An uncreated creator contradicts the logic used to reach the conclusion that everything was created in the first place, a simple fact that no semantic word game can hide. Simply calling something "uncreated," or "eternal," does not make one's argument exempt from logic, but creationists seem to think it does.
 
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Beastt

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You need to study up on that a little bit more. Those beliefs go back to the Greeks and they go back before the New Testament Christian Church.
That doesn't matter. What does matter is that the book you hold to be the truths of God include these ancient misconceptions.

There is little reason to believe a book to contain ultimate truth when it can be shown to contain demonstrable fallacies.

Yes and my ancestor was burned at the stake in 1555 for being a protestant. What is your point?
My point, as before, is that people who looked to the Bible for ultimate truth proclaimed that they had ultimate truth and acted upon that truth to punish others for what appeared to be "heresy". But we today know that the Bible is wrong and those punished were right. Yet many still refuse to see that the Bible contains many claims which are simply untrue. And if those which can be applied to physical testing are untrue, why are we to be compelled to believe those claims which are untestable by physical means to be any more accurate?

If you are going to take a stand for the truth, then you can expect that your going to be persecuted.
Even when that persecution comes from those proclaiming the Bible to be ultimate truth. Obviously, it is not yet people still insist that it is, even when they are willing to admit that persecution has come from adherence to biblical scripture.

Matthew 5:12
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You have a choice, you are either persecuted or persecutor, which one are you?
There is no middle ground and there is no fense sitting allowed. You are in or out with God, you are for him or against him.
Around here, I'm often persecuted for speaking out about my beliefs. And that persecution comes from those who believe as did the persecutors of Giordano and Galileo, who refuse to accept the evidence against that which they desire to believe.
 
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Chalnoth

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The unbeliever on one hand studies this intelligible form with its uniformity of nature and coherence of all things in the world knowing that without this foundation it would be impossible to make sense of the world; but on the other hand refusing to believe that it was Created.
No. The unbeliever doesn't believe that it was created because that's not what the evidence says. The only thing that is necessary is that the unbeliever believes that any creator will not be a deceiver. Thus it is enough to simply assume that if there is a creator, then that creator would leave evidence of creation.

From that premise, we do the only thing we can do: assume the present is the same as the past (by some measure). Then in doing this we explain as much as we can, and assume that if there is a creator, then the creation event will be visible as a definite break in the natural laws at some point in the past.

From these assumptions, science changes not one bit. And since science has been able to probe the universe nearly as far back as it is possible to measure, with no detection of any change in physical laws, the obvious conclusion is that there is no creator.

Now, you might suggest that the creation event would not be detectable, but this again changes science not one bit.

The primary problem with your assertion is simply that you do not understand those of us who do not believe in religion. I used to be a believer. I used to be a Christian fundamentalist who believed in an inerrant Bible, an omnipotent creator, and a young Earth and universe. Then I learned some of the evidence. I came to the conclusion that god doesn't exist, I never ever assumed it: the conclusion that god didn't exist was a very painful one for me to admit, and took a number of years to fully admit it to myself.
 
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AV1611VET

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Even when that persecution comes from those proclaiming the Bible to be ultimate truth. Obviously, it is not yet people still insist that it is, even when they are willing to admit that persecution has come from adherence to biblical scripture.

The Bible does not teach persecution in any way, shape, or form.

Not one person on the face of this earth --- ever --- was persecuted because the Bible was correct.
 
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Beastt

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Science in the worldview of the unbeliever and the Christian both rest on the same thing; unfortunately, the unbeliever doesn't recognize this. A Christian believes that as God created the universe in an intelligible form the laws and processes are able to be studied due to this foundation. The Christian holds a preconceived or presuppositional view of creation and the Creator.
From what we see on this forum Christians tend to believe in miracles as events which occur despite being well outside of the laws and processes of the known universe. They believe in miracles, rising from death, spirits and many other events which are strictly contradictory to the physical laws.

The unbelievers observe the laws, recognize them to always be true and therefore, find no reason to believe in the events proposed by believers.

The unbeliever on one hand studies this intelligible form with its uniformity of nature and coherence of all things in the world knowing that without this foundation it would be impossible to make sense of the world; but on the other hand refusing to believe that it was Created.
I see no evidence that it was created and the logic in reasoning that it was not created, certainly not by an all-knowing, sentient being, which itself, must have either been created or ever-existing. When have you ever seen anything created? Transformation is not the same as creation. I would suggest that you have never witnessed an act of creation, never been privy to a credible documentation of creation and yet you suggest that unbelievers are incorrect in reasoning that acts of creation do not, and have not, occurred.

So the Christian holds a worldveiw that reasons for the reason in the world while the unbeliever reasons without reason to believe there is a reason to believe that the world is reasonable for a reason.
Where is the reason in assuming that alongside nothingness, existed a sentience of complete knowledge and total power which then brought everything aside from itself into being? Where is your evidence of creation? Where is the evidence of this proposed being? How many beings of similar properties have been proposed by multitudes of cultures throughout the years only to have been eventually dismissed and forgotten? What you assert to be reason seems very much to be the absence of reason as viewed from a position of observer of reality.

So, according to your comment, "If you tried to base science on a foundation of a conclusion, it would cease to be science" calls into question your assumption that it is the Christian worldveiw that holds the conclusion. Science by its own creed presupposes the preconceived premise that all things must be viewed as natural rather than supernatural.
This is not true. Science is the study of reality. All of known reality is subject to science because there is evidence. That for which there exists no evidence can therefore be reasoned to be other than real.

The foundation of Science is based on the conclusion that all things can be tested, can be known and can be intellectually conceived. Without a world that is cohesive and uniform Science would have no foundation and without coherent knowledge Science would never be possible.
Without cohesive and uniform properties it is unlikely that any portion of reality could continue to exist. If God created the world, it would seem it was created with this concept well defined. Yet it is the belief in this God which leads people to believe that events occur which are outside of this necessary construct and property of reality. It is, in fact, the very book most believers attribute to this God which proclaims events which violate these laws and properties.

So my comment that Science has its foundation in Creationism is based on the fact that in the Christian worldview the world is intelligently designed to be known by its uniformity and laws.
But surely you must recognize that science does not subscribe to creationism, has been offered zero credible evidence of creationism, and has sufficient evidence to be compelling of mechanisms which would account for that for which creationism claims credit. Creationism lacks credible evidence and without credible evidence, no matter how much one might wish to subscribe to both science and Christianity, they will find the two to be incompatible on any level ruled by rationality and objectivity.

The Christian worldview holds that knowledge and reason come from an intelligent God in which we were made in the image thereof.
Which again is contrary to the evidence. God is said to be metaphysical; people are physical. God is said to be incapable of sin; humans are said to be incapable of complete avoidance of sin. God is said to be perfect; humans are certainly far from any claim of perfection. Where is it, exactly, that humans and God are supposed to offer a similar image?

The knowledge offered by Christianity and the belief in the Christian God have been geocentrism, ritualistic medicine, a global flood which never occured, growth of plants on Earth before the existence of the sun and the sun, moon and stars residing within the atmosphere of the Earth.

Science has shown all of these to be false. That's true knowledge. Belief in a book which is devoid of verification isn't knowledge.

So you hold conclusions based on your preconceived presuppositional worldview just as much as I do.
Less so, it would seem. The conclusions of science are based in evidence. The conclusions of the Christian worldview are based in blind belief and adherence to an ancient book which demonstrates all the expected properties and traits of a book of ancient tales, cultural traditions and traditional beliefs.
 
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AV1611VET

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But surely you must recognize that science does not subscribe to creationism, has been offered zero credible evidence of creationism...

That's because the ingredients of said creation (matter) didn't exist prior to the creation. In many events, the evidence exists well before the act is performed; but if it's after-the-fact evidence of creation you're looking for, I submit you're standing on it.

We are the evidence --- evidence looking for evidence --- does a fish know it's wet?
 
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shernren

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That's because the ingredients of said creation (matter) didn't exist prior to the creation. In many events, the evidence exists well before the act is performed; but if it's after-the-fact evidence of creation you're looking for, I submit you're standing on it.

We are the evidence --- evidence looking for evidence --- does a fish know it's wet?

Maybe not, but it definitely knows when it's been taken out of the water. Your point being?
 
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