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Where to hunter/gatherers come from?

Chalnoth

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As I have said before, micro-evolution, a fancy term for adaptation, has evidence (Christians have always believed in adaptation); macro-evolution, a fancy term for changes in genera, on the other hand, does not.
Playing the word game won't help you. Where is there a law in so-called microevolution that says change must stop here, no further? What mechanism is there to prevent speciation? What mechanism is there to prevent such wide divergences as we see given enough time without interbreeding?

You see, it doesn't make any sense at all for there to be microevolution but not macroevolution: the two are connected by continuity (See Loki's Wager).

I'd still like to see you refute even one of talkorigin.org's 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution. Pick one, any one.

Edit: though please, if you'd like to try to refute one, start a new thread. I'd feel guilty if I contributed to further thread derailment.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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thank you for the link to: (See Loki's Wager)
it is the same argument in Shylock's pound of flesh in The Merchant of Venice.

Many Christians accept evolution but I can remember when creationists denied speciation, this was before they decided they needed hyperevolution to reduce the number of animals needed on the ark.


this is an excellent point, it demonstrates that YECism is responsive to criticism and that the argument that science changes and the Bible remains the same is fallacious from their own history, YECism itself is evolving.
 
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shernren

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In any event, I'm not here to debate Ken Ham and AiG. What they believe is their business.

Christians, IMO, need to get out of the "evidence producing" business, and let God handle the convictions.

Christians look silly when they try using evidence (other than their faith) to prove God, and Atheists look silly when they deny the singularities that occurred in the first 4000 years of Earth's history.

That implies that you no longer stand by what you quoted from them, right? "What they believe is their business" ... not yours.

This post should be linked and quoted every time AV1611VET tries to cite AiG in future. Not that it would make much difference.
 
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AV1611VET

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...after all the Latin term for kinds in Gen 1 is genus.
Hebrew miyn=Greek idea=Latin genus
hence the origin of the term in Linnaeus' reading of the Bible in Latin.

This is why God gave us His purified Word via the Gothic language.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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This is why God gave us His purified Word via the Gothic language.

i'll bite, what exactly is the organic relationship between Ulfilas Gothic translation and the KJV? The KJV is translated from Greek and Hebrew not from a secondary source like the Gothic translation of the Greek..

or perhaps you would PM me the link to your defense of this statement on another more appropriate forum.
 
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AV1611VET

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Hmm. I thought SETI was privately funded.

They are NOW --- we woke up.

Anyone who "earns their paycheck" by distorting science to fool the faithful into giving donations is a hustler. Ken Ham is a hustler.

What makes "his" science any better than "yours"? If I today, claim there are nine planets in the solar system, would you say the same thing about me?

What give you that idea?

Teaching is a licensed profession.

Either he lied or he is ignorant of a subject he is selling himself as an expert on (The Creation Evolution Debate).

Once again, I wouldn't know --- I didn't see the webcast.

Many Christians accept evolution but I can remember when creationists denied speciation, this was before they decided they needed hyperevolution to reduce the number of animals needed on the ark.

Yes --- you're right --- but back then evolution didn't consist of microevolution and macroevolution. The acceptance of microevolution is not an acceptance of evolution, per se, but simply a more technical way of describing adaptation.

Macroevolution is well established in science. Get over it.

Not hardly --- not even hardly.

Faith is hardly evidence.

God says otherwise:

[bible]Hebrews 11:1[/bible]

It funny that you denigrate SETI when the ancedotal evidence for extraterrestial visitors to earth is so strong.

SETI is an attempt to eventually make contact with life beyond our planet. I believe that this universe is teeming with life --- but not the kind you're thinking of.

In Genesis 6, the angels paid a dear, dear price for communicating with us, and I have a feeling they are loathe to try it again.

They're there, and they probably are tempted to reply, but they know better. The trouble is, do we? I don't know of one person who endorses SETI and believes in the Flood at the same time.

[bible]Jude 1:6[/bible]

First you said there was no evidence then you said there was evidence. Make up your mind.

Context, FB, context. It's a way of properly understanding what was said when you have a paradox.
 
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JohnR7

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i'll bite, what exactly is the organic relationship between Ulfilas Gothic translation and the KJV? The KJV is translated from Greek and Hebrew not from a secondary source like the Gothic translation of the Greek..

The KJV was translated into a Anglo-Norman language used by the educated at the time. The Norman's had control over Italy, Jerusalem and England.

If you go back 2000 yrs the Noman, Anglo & Gothic are all branches of the Germanic language that is a branch on the Indo-European langage.

English just happened to be the language that they were using when they modified the langage to use on the printing press in the 1500's.
If you look in the American Heritage Dictionary it will tell you if the word comes from Greek, Latin, French or whatever.

The Brittians of course without the Roman Garrisons were not able to hold the land. They were only able to hold onto London.
 
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AV1611VET

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Playing the word game won't help you. Where is there a law in so-called microevolution that says change must stop here, no further? What mechanism is there to prevent speciation? What mechanism is there to prevent such wide divergences as we see given enough time without interbreeding?

That mechanism is obedience.

It's interesting that you said 'no further', in light of:

[bible]Job 38:11[/bible]

And although this verse seems to be God commanding the waters of the Flood to 'back off', you can see that He clearly set the geodesic boundaries.

All these goofy bible "versions" that say the Spirit of God "brooded" over the face of the waters in Genesis 1, need to say what God really said He did ---

[bible]Genesis 1:2[/bible]

That is, "moved", as in going from Point A to Point B --- taking geodesic surveys.

(I know --- that's too deep theology --- just ignore it.)

You see, it doesn't make any sense at all for there to be microevolution but not macroevolution: the two are connected by continuity (See Loki's Wager).

Fine --- if the term bothers you --- we can just go back to calling it 'adaptation'.

I'd still like to see you refute even one of talkorigin.org's 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution. Pick one, any one.

For me, that would be easy; just read my signature; but for you, that would be impossible for anyone to do --- unless scientists got together after 76 years and voted against it in light of "newly-acquired evidence".

Edit: though please, if you'd like to try to refute one, start a new thread. I'd feel guilty if I contributed to further thread derailment.

Don't worry --- I'm under the impression that only a scientist's vote can refute a scientist's theory.

I vote we call it --- Plutoing.
 
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AV1611VET

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That implies that you no longer stand by what you quoted from them, right? "What they believe is their business" ... not yours.

No --- that's not an implication of seceding --- it's simply stating that they and I don't necessarily see eye-to-eye.

This post should be linked and quoted every time AV1611VET tries to cite AiG in future. Not that it would make much difference.

Go ahead --- I don't think I've ever quoted AiG, anyway.
 
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AV1611VET

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i'll bite, what exactly is the organic relationship between Ulfilas Gothic translation and the KJV? The KJV is translated from Greek and Hebrew not from a secondary source like the Gothic translation of the Greek..

Off the record, here is the authorized line:
  • 96AD --- completed Scriptures
  • AV100 Koine Greek Version
  • AV350 Gothic Version
  • AV700 Anglo-Saxon Version
  • AV1389 Wycliffe Version
  • AV1530 Tyndale Version
  • AV1560 Geneva Bible
  • AV1568 Bishops' Bible
  • AV1611 King James Version
 
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AV1611VET

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The KJV was translated into a Anglo-Norman language used by the educated at the time. The Norman's had control over Italy, Jerusalem and England.

God's language of choice for His final version was English, and He timed His English versions to appear after moveable type was invented.
 
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USincognito

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Well let's try and get this thread back on topic...

Now, don't imagine I've saved all the rebuttals for the creationists :p I found an interesting article: http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/199705/0077.html which seems to argue for the exact opposite of the OP. The problem isn't how some cultures could have so quickly lost technology, it's how cultures could actually have kept any technology, given that there were only eight people on the Ark.

What a great article by Glenn... but that goes without saying. However, I think his points are more on a tangent from mine, than in opposition.

His comments on the Tasmanians are taken from the same source material (Flood and Rhys Jones) as Diamond did for Guns, Germs and Steel, from which I developed my OP*. We (Glenn and myself) both agree that time, isolation and small population size led to the loss of technology. And that gets to why I don't think his article is necessarily a refutation of the OP. He's making a positive argument using standard archaeology to provide an example supporting his technological dark age following the Flood 5Mya. I'm making a negative argument using standard archeology against YECism.

The one difference between Glenn's article, my OP and YECism is that the last one doesn't allow for time or claim there was technology loss and therin lies the problem. As several of us have pointed out using Genesis chapters 10 and 11, technology didn't die out following the Flood (Noah's robe/vinyard/wine making, city building {Ninevah/Sidon}, skyscrapers) and in chapter 12 we alread have mention of Pharoah which would connote a highly developed soceity warrenting a priestly caste, warrier caste and a god-king.

It took the small population and isolation of Tasmania plus 8-10,000 years for them to lose Neolithic technology down to Paleolithic. According to YECism, it took hundreds, to a couple of thousand for non-isolated groups like the Khoi San lose Bronze Age technology down to Neolithic.

As the articles from AiG show, the only attempted explanation for this is ad hoc.

*Though not just about the Tasmanians I also mention existing societies like Australian aborigines, Khoi San and Yanomamo.
 
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shernren

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Ahh. So I suppose the question is how could so much technology survive an eight-survivor bottleneck in the Flood and then be lost so rapidly in several different ways in several different societies? Is that the inconsistency? That technology is so tenaciously preserved in one instant and so quickly lost in the next?

Devil's advocate:
But Noah knew about the Flood destroying all man, so he would have taken extra care to preserve whatever technology he could lay his hands on. Whereas the post-Babel dispersion would have scrambled people's languages and thus a large amount of negative cultural change would have happened rapidly due to the loss of a coherent universal language (which happened to be what else? Hebrew!)
 
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USincognito

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This is from The Answers Book, by Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, p. 234:

Instead of making this overly complex, I'm just going to bold AiG's comments and respond in plain text beneath each paragraph.

In some instances, the stone tools may have been used temporarily, until their settlements were fully established and they had found and exploited metal deposits, for example. In others, the original diverging group may not have taken the relevant knowledge with them. Ask an average family group today how many of them, if they had to start again, as it were, would know how to find, mine and smelt metal-bearing deposits? Obviously, there has been technological (cultural) degeneration in many post-Babel groups.

Stone tools aren't used by any society that had the technology to work metal. In some cases they did lack them (Polynesian island societies) but in the vast majority they never developed the technology in the first place, even if they were on top of rich deposits (Australian aborigines) or knew how to extract and work metal but only did so for ornamental purposes (Incas/Aztecs). Societies coming from iron using antecedants would find a way to get iron even if there wasn't any locally (Greenland Norse) they don't suddenly stop using technology just because they've moved away from their homeland.

As far as my family finding metal and smelting it, that's a straw man, since we're talking about 21st century people. I can't slaughter and skin a cow, but the Greenland Norse could. I can't fashion a homemade chain link, but the Greenland Norse could. They also (and this gets back to small populations and isolations vs. time) were able to get small amounts of bog iron during their visits to Vinland when they couldn't get fresh shipments of iron from Norway.

As far as Babel goes, by Gen. 12, we already have mention of Pharoah, so apparently the cultural and technological degredation didn't last very long or was not evenly distributed in the post-Babel population so that leaves more questions for AiG than provides answers.

In some cases, harsh environments may have contributed. The Australian Aborigines have a technology and cultural knowledge which, in relation to their lifestyle and need to survive in the dry outback, is most appropriate. This includes the aerodynamic principles used in making boomerangs (some of which were designed to return to the thrower, while others were not).

This would make a convincing argument in a vacuum, but history shows it's not. The Australian Aborigines aren't, for the most part, indigenous to the Outback. Most of them were forced into the more arid, less desireable areas after the arrival of the British. Those who did live in the Outback had 2,000 generations of ancestors who had learned the secrets of surviving there. Again, time that doesn't exist in the YEC model.

Sometimes we see evidence of degeneration that is hard to explain, but is real, nonetheless. For instance, when Europeans arrived in Tasmania, the Aborigines there had the simplest technology known. They caught no fish, and did not usually make and wear clothes. Yet recent archaeological discoveries suggest that earlier generations had more knowledge and equipment.

It's not that hard to explain. Small population + isolation + time = the loss of technology as people die off without passing on their knowledge or the younger generation fails to sufficiently pick up on it. Not hard to explain, but since YECism doesn't allow for time in the equation, it's no wonder they're stumped.

For instance, archaeologist Rhys Jones believes that in the Tasmanian Aborigines' distant past, these people had equipment to sew skins into complex clothes. This contrasts with the observations in the early 1800's that they just slung skins over their shoulders. It also appears that they were in fact catching and eating fish in the past, but when Europeans arrived, they had not been doing this for a long time. From this we infer that technology is not always retained and built upon, but can be lost or abandoned.

Are "no duh" statements like that in blue why AiG is held in such high regard by Creationists?

And note the little game they play, "they had not being doing this for a 'long time'". Yeah, for 2-7,000 years depending on the technology. Of course they won't tell you that since the flood occured only 3,800 years before those early European explorers arrived. They also don't tell you that the reason they had the lost technologies is that Tasmania was attached to Greater Australia and there was cultural exchange that ended 8-10,000 years ago when the island was cut off. Small populations + isoloation + thousands of years of isolation = technological loss.

Animist peoples live in fear of evil spirits and often have taboos against healthy practices like washing, and eating various nutritious foods. Again this illustrates how loss of knowledge of the true Creator-God leads to degradation (Romans 1:18-32).

Wow, that came out of right field... I think I'll just leave it for the readers to decide what to conclude.
 
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USincognito

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Ahh. So I suppose the question is how could so much technology survive an eight-survivor bottleneck in the Flood and then be lost so rapidly in several different ways in several different societies? Is that the inconsistency? That technology is so tenaciously preserved in one instant and so quickly lost in the next?

Devil's advocate:
But Noah knew about the Flood destroying all man, so he would have taken extra care to preserve whatever technology he could lay his hands on. Whereas the post-Babel dispersion would have scrambled people's languages and thus a large amount of negative cultural change would have happened rapidly due to the loss of a coherent universal language (which happened to be what else? Hebrew!)

In a nutshell that's the issue. I'd expand it a bit further than being just a question of technology because what is lost by going from shipbuilding/urban/agrarian people to hunter/gatherers is more than a loss of cultural artifact, but a profound change in lifestyle. The main reason I mention ships/woven cloth/skyscrapers so often is that I'm trying to stick with the information the Bible states explicitly (since that's what YECs claim they do.. despite AiG's apparent acceptance of standard Archaeology and citations of a man who thinks Aborigines were in Australia and Tasmania for 40,000 years, not 3,800) regarding the technologies, but my larger point is the complete abandonment of a lifestyle and adoption of one subsequent generations would have to figure out pretty quick in order to survive.

Neither Bronze age nor Neolitic people could move into an area utterly foreign to their ancestral homeland (say from the Middle East to Tasmania or from the Middle East to Northern North America) and suddenly know what food they could eat and where to find it or how to provide shelter in a handful of generations or so.

The Babel gambit in this equation at first might sound compelling, but let's go back to the source and see what Genesis has to say. In Genesis 12 we find that despite the confusing of the languages, Egypt is already an empire able to support an imperial household with lots of livestock and the princes of the land can still speak to Abram.
[bible]Genesis 12:15-16[/bible]

It looks like Genesis itself doesn't vouch for much technological degredation nor cultural isolation after Babel. I guess the YECs are going to need to come up with something better.
 
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shernren

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The Babel gambit in this equation at first might sound compelling, but let's go back to the source and see what Genesis has to say. In Genesis 12 we find that despite the confusing of the languages, Egypt is already an empire able to support an imperial household with lots of livestock and the princes of the land can still speak to Abram.

I don't know much about archeology, but according to the literal Biblical timeline, Sodom and Gomorrah of Genesis 19 happens within 600 years (max max) of Babel, which in the Biblical account clearly denotes sex in the city. Is this significantly unlikely?

Devil's advocate:

This is exactly what we expected! Civilizations closer to the Fertile Crescent, such as Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Canaanites, retained more of their technology and culture since they had only a short distance to migrate. Whereas civilizations that went farther abroad to fulfill God's command to "spread out over all the Earth" lost more of their technology en route. The fact that civilizations of the Fertile Crescent are more mature makes more sense from a creationist perspective.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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A reminder:

Please refrain from accusing other members of violating forum rules i.e. hijacking, derailing, etc.

Please also attempt to stay on topic; of course, there is some leniency in touching on tangents briefly.

Please don't respond to posting that violates forum rules. If needed, report the post and state what rule the violation is. Staff are assigned to address those concerns and resolve them.

Thank you and carry on... within the forum rules. ;)
 
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