really not praying to Mary???

[stivvy]

mike1reynolds said:

How is asking His mother to ask Him bypassing Him?

Because the whole point of everything Jesus went through was to do one thing. To restore mans relationship with God. It is a slap in Hisface to pray to other people, and don't say they don't pray to them. Many people on this thread have admitted to it. Jesus wasn't tortured and killed so His people could pray to his mother. There is nothing in bible that gives Mary or anyone else this kind of power. Jesus prayed to His Father. Jesus told his disciples to pray to God in His name. It is very simple. It is not disrespectful to Jesus or His mother to say this, because we have biblical backing. No one is taking away Marys role as the Mother of Jesus Christ. It is an honour in itself. But she has authority as a medatrix, co-redeamer or intercessor for mankind. That is the job or our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit He gives us.

You so don't get it.....Jesus died to open the gates of heaven to us. We worship only Him. We pray to those surrounding His throne. We have a relationship in communion with those in His glory. We pray directly to Him. As lowly humans, we recognize the greatness of those in His glory. The glory we struggle to be in when we pass on. The same struggle we may have to work towrds to leanse our souls after our passing. While in His presence, we ask them to interceed and help us be guided and for God's mercy to be poured on our sinful souls. We are soooo full of sin (you may not think so) that when we are sorry for our sins we tend to sin 5 more times in words, deeds and toughts.

Hope this shows you where we are coming from.

 

[stivvy]

Very thoughtful posts.

This issue boils down to one thing, for me. The Mary prayers read "to." They do not read "ask." If you wish to "ask" Mary "to" pray for you, then state that clearly in the prayer. Otherwise, you ask us doubters to believe you say one thing and mean another. Please, mean what you say and say what you mean. When leadership (pope etc.) read a prayer such as that, they lead others astray. This I can't accept. Matt. 18:6-7

This makes no sense to me. You really think we Catholics have some hidden agenda to worship a false god????? Sounds just plain insane to me.

 

[Smileyill]

Do you know what the prayers say? Have you read them? The most famous one, the Ave Maria ends by asking Mary to pray for us.
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death".
Is that clear enough for you?

kamikat

I'm referring to the prayers listed in this thread.

 

[Smileyill]

This makes no sense to me. You really think we Catholics have some hidden agenda to worship a false god????? Sounds just plain insane to me.

People in error don't intend to error. The same goes for me.

I'm questioning semantics, not intentions. Unclear doctrine leads others astray.

 

[PaulAckermann]

Post # 162 God forbad to pray to the Queen of heaven

Where is that in the Bible?

And why would God forbid anyone asking the Queen of Heaven for anything if He Himself made Mary the Queen of Heaven?

 

[stivvy]

People in error don't intend to error. The same goes for me.

I'm questioning semantics, not intentions. Unclear doctrine leads others astray.

Although I disagree that the Catholic Doctrine is unclear, I do understand your post.

 

[pgp_protector]

You so don't get it.....Jesus died to open the gates of heaven to us. We worship only Him. We pray to those surrounding His throne. We have a relationship in communion with those in His glory. We pray directly to Him. As lowly humans, we recognize the greatness of those in His glory. The glory we struggle to be in when we pass on. The same struggle we may have to work towrds to leanse our souls after our passing. While in His presence, we ask them to interceed and help us be guided and for God's mercy to be poured on our sinful souls. We are soooo full of sin (you may not think so) that when we are sorry for our sins we tend to sin 5 more times in words, deeds and toughts.

Hope this shows you where we are coming from.

You can pray to thoses surounding the Throne, I'll pray to the one sitting on the Throne.

 

[PaulAckermann]

And Rev 12 refers to overcomer IMO. Sorry, the quote button wasn't working

Not sure what IMO stands for, but that this passage is clearly talking of Mary. The woman clothed with the sun has a son who will rule the nations with a rod of iron and this son is taken up into heaven to with God the Father. This is obviously Jesus, so the mother is Mary.

Also this passage says this woman is the mother of anyone who obeys God's commannd and stands for the testimony of Jesus - that is anyone who overcomes. So the woman is not the overcomer, but the mother of the overcomer.

 

[pgp_protector]

IMO = In My Opnion

 

[stivvy]

You can pray to thoses surounding the Throne, I'll pray to the one sitting on the Throne.

I am glad to hear that. I do too.

 

[lionroar0]

You can pray to thoses surounding the Throne, I'll pray to the one sitting on the Throne.

Reading the WHOLE post before responding is the charitable thing to do.

Somehow this got overlooked. Perhaps it's a touch of romaphobia??

We pray directly to Him.

Peace

 

[mike1reynolds]

It is a slap in Hisface to pray to other people, and don't say they don't pray to them.

It is also a mark against you to lie about other people's faith. For the thousandth time, RCs ask Mary to pray for them, they do not pray to Mary. You are simply spreading lies about another Christian denomination. Only Muslims attack Christianity with more virulence than other Christians attack Catholics and the other orthodox denominations.

If you think that it is a slap in the face that Jesus had a mother and that He actually follows the 4th commandment and listens to her, then it suggests that you are suffering from jealousy rather than piety.

 

[stivvy]

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
*** = Oh My Goodness
ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing
RC = Roman Catholic
OC = Orthodox Church
.
.
.
BTW = By The Way

So... IMHO the RC and OC are so steeped in tradition they can leave you in awe and say *** or get you so confused that you ROFL. BTW, does anyone know what EIEIO means in "Old MCDonalds Had a Farm" Song? I always pondered that.

 

[stivvy]

Reading the WHOLE post before responding is the charitable thing to do.

Somehow this got overlooked. Perhaps it's a touch of romaphobia??

We pray directly to Him.

Peace

Maybe they have a hard time seeing....Maybe this will help with bigger letters...

We pray directly to Him.

OK Johny, please read the big letters covering your right eye. Good, now lets try covering the left eye....Good.

Is that better?

 

[pgp_protector]

You so don't get it.....Jesus died to open the gates of heaven to us. We worship only Him. We pray to those surrounding His throne. We have a relationship in communion with those in His glory. We pray directly to Him. As lowly humans, we recognize the greatness of those in His glory. The glory we struggle to be in when we pass on. The same struggle we may have to work towrds to leanse our souls after our passing. While in His presence, we ask them to interceed and help us be guided and for God's mercy to be poured on our sinful souls. We are soooo full of sin (you may not think so) that when we are sorry for our sins we tend to sin 5 more times in words, deeds and toughts.

Hope this shows you where we are coming from.

Reading the WHOLE post before responding is the charitable thing to do.

Somehow this got overlooked. Perhaps it's a touch of romaphobia??

We pray directly to Him.

Peace

I did see that they (The one I was quoting) also states they pray to the one ON the throne, I was just saying that I will ONLY pray to the one on the throne, and no one else. They stated that they DO pray to others (". We pray to those surrounding His throne.")

No if saying that they pray to thoes surrounding his throne, is not pryaing to others, then I guess I need to go back to english class as I can no longer read.

 

[lionroar0]

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
*** = Oh My Goodness
ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing
RC = Roman Catholic
OC = Orthodox Church

Someone should pm Oblio.

Peace

 

[Dewi Sant]

I've read through the first 15 pages of this thread before I realised how massive it is!


Anyway, here's what I have to say about praying with saints.



Do you believe that those living today who are in the communium of Christ are "saints"?

Yes?

So in that case, your Christian friends are Saints also. We are brothers and sisters in Christ.


Let's take an example, one I have experianced many times.

One of your close relatives die.
Would it be wrong to pray with them?

If you say yes, then consider this, is it wrong to pray with your friends or family?
Should we outlaw the grace before meals?
Should we outlaw prayers in church?
If heaven is life eternal, then that relative is not dead.

I just hope this brings it into a closer perspective.





And don't think of it in the rome-o-phobic attitude of "praying to Mary" but rather, "Praying with St. Mary".

Even the Church of England has intercessionary prayers.

All prayers are for God, and only God.
However, more than one person can pray that prayer

 

[pgp_protector]

You so don't get it.....Jesus died to open the gates of heaven to us. We worship only Him. We pray to those surrounding His throne. We have a relationship in communion with those in His glory. We pray directly to Him. As lowly humans, we recognize the greatness of those in His glory. The glory we struggle to be in when we pass on. The same struggle we may have to work towrds to leanse our souls after our passing. While in His presence, we ask them to interceed and help us be guided and for God's mercy to be poured on our sinful souls. We are soooo full of sin (you may not think so) that when we are sorry for our sins we tend to sin 5 more times in words, deeds and toughts.

Hope this shows you where we are coming from.

Maybe they have a hard time seeing....Maybe this will help with bigger letters...

We pray directly to Him.

OK Johny, please read the big letters covering your right eye. Good, now lets try covering the left eye....Good.

Is that better?

Yes, We see that you Pray to God, but the above quote shows
That you also pray to others

See I can make text big also.

 

[PaulAckermann]

This is Christ being spoken of in Gen. 3:15 - not Mary - He is the "seed" who will do the bruising.

There are two different version of the Old Testament used at the time of Jesus - one is the Hebrew tezt (called Mazeritic text) and the other is the Greek text (called the Greek Septuagint). When Jesus quoted from the Old Testament they used the Greek Septuagint.

The Hebrew text uses the the masculine ("He shall bruise your heel"), but the Greek test used the feminine ("She shall bruise your heel").

For the first 15 hundred years of Christianity, Christian used the Greek text. After the Reformation, the Reformers reject the Greek Septuagint because the Septuagint included 7 books that included passages about praying for dead and that God created man with a free will. So the Reformer reject the Greek Septugint, with the excuse that the Jews rejected the Greek Septugint so we should also. What they neglected to mention is that the Jews only rejected the Septuagint after Christ, because there were verses such as Isaiah 7:14 in the Septuagint that were very hard for the Jew to deal with.

But at the time of Jesus and the apostles, both texts were valid to use for the Old Testament. Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Greek Septugaint, not the Maseritic text, which show that they believed that the Septugaint was the authoritative one.

So when the Greek Septuagint says "she shall bruise thy heel", that is probably the correct translation.

 

[lionroar0]

That you also pray to others

Yes but we don't have the same definition of the word "pray."

When we pray to others we are asking them to pray with and for us directly to God.

The same way that a person would ask their friends to pray with and for them directly to God.

Peace