Mutations occur by chance, but selection is not random. Selection tends to remove more unfit creatures from the environment. Saying evolution is nothing but chance would mean that chemistry is also nothing but chance.
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Is belief for/against creationism important for salvation?
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Mutations occur by chance, but selection is not random. Selection tends to remove more unfit creatures from the environment. Saying evolution is nothing but chance would mean that chemistry is also nothing but chance.
artybloke
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Probably, but then I suspect that it's not their fault. Science is often taught as a series of soundbites at school, a set of facts and rules and the like that when you later go on to study at a deeper level turn out to be far more complicated. It's only when you reach university that study becomes a lot less black and white.
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The point of the question was that you claimed that scripture does tell us how God created which it clearly doesn't, a point which you now seem to accept.
Has anybody here said otherwise?
What we actually see is that a literal 6-day interpretation is choc full of internal inconsistencies[/quote]
When God is involved, nothing happens by chance.
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Harlan Norris
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Believing the Bible is important to salvation.How can one be saved if one doesn't believe?
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HolyGuardianAngels
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Well, firstly we want to align ourselves with as much TRUTH as possible . . . One would not affilliate themselves, knowingly, with others who PREACHED lies; because, this would then be the foundation of our own spiritual life, as well as, our own spiritual growth and a horrible example to others.
Your belief in Creationism, as well as any other topic, makes up who you are. I don't want to give the impression that gainning access to the GLORIES of Heaven is like opening a cave to treasures, with the magic WORD, such as "Open, says-a-me" (Ha Ha Ha) However, our BELIEFS DO form a very complicated KEY . . . as Holy Scripture speaks many times of . . . (Sacered KEYS. . .) And also your SOUL is fed by WHAT you believe and practice.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not only CREATED, with a Holy Design in "mind", He did NOT take eons to do it. Firstly, think of ANYTHING else in Sacred Scripture in which OUR God took eons of time to do!! Nothing!!
~or maybe one thing I don't know of. (ummm) Anyway, When He healed someone it took only moments, When He answered a prayer it took only seconds, When He gave anything it was instantly . . . And if perchance, Moses had to wait by the Red Sea for one of those "one day is a thousand years", things, he would have NEVER made it across in time for dinner. BTW: The Lord dried the land Moses crossed on, that very moment, he did not have to wait for the science of CONDENSATION to take place. ~We are talking about GOD here, right, and He can DO ANYTHING!!The Holy Bible says repeatedly: Evening came and Morning followed . . . NOT 100 gazillion evenings and mornings... ONLY ONE each . . . WHY try to crame OUR awasome GOD into the 7-8 inches of space betwen our ears . . . WE will NEVER be able to comprehend Him . . . YET, what we EACH individually believe and PRACTICE in our daily lives, will open our eyes one day to the amazing BEAUTY and PEACE of HEAVEN, or not.
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rmwilliamsll
avid reader
the obvious ones?
light before the lightbearers. Gen 1:3
day and night defined before the sun Gen 1:5
note: a yom is 12 hrs not 24.
likewise evening and morning before the sun and possibly before the earth is even created in Gen 1:9. depending on what the dividing of the waters means in Gen 1:6
the point is the God is in the process of creating Kingdoms.
first the kingdom of light, then the kingdoms of the waters. on above the firament and one below. which is separated from the kingdom of the firament which is called the heavens. and the last kingdom is the kingdom of the land.
He continues to populate the kingdoms, the land with plants first in Gen 1:12
then the kingdom of light is given particular rulers the sun and moon. one to govern the day and one to govern the night (further evidence that a yom is about 12 hrs not 24)
then the waters are populated and given rulers in their turn in Gen 1:21, the kings of the seas are the whales.
note that the kingdom is the kingdom of waters, the firmament separates the waters, the firmament is populated by the birds. curiously the heavens are not given specific rulers like everywhere else.
then in Gen 1:25,26 the land is populated, having already been given a carpet of green earlier with grasses and trees. the king of this kingdom is behemah, mistranslated as cattle.
The the crowning king of all--mankind
the chapter has nothing to do with science or modern notions of history it is about 3 triads of creating kingdoms and populating them with living things and man's kingship over all. set out as a Sabbath Creation week, the the Sabbath the king of the other six days representing God's Kingship over all creation including mankind, who being from the sixth day is still part of nature, despite being the king.
it is not only not literal, to look at it literally misses ALL the significance and glory of the chapter, and breaks it down into little pieces of what came first and how to create correspondences between the days and modern science. and poof the theology escapes.
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![[serious]](/data/avatars/m/160/160873.jpg?1431539545){kind=avatar}
Believe in a specific reading of the creation account is a minor point to me. I see no reason to tie salvation in to a minor point of theology.
If someone believes in evolution, so be it. If someone believes in creation, so be it. The only real sin is trying to tell someone else that you have some special understanding of the bible.
Romans 14:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions.
2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord,'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 Yet if because of food your brother is grieved, you walk no longer in love. Don't destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Then don't let your good be slandered,
17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then, let us follow after things which make for peace, and things by which we may build one another up.
20 Don't overthrow God's work for food's sake. All things indeed are clean, however it is evil for that man who creates a stumbling block by eating.
21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn't judge himself in that which he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.
24 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages,
25 but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
26 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.[/FONT]
If someone believes in evolution, so be it. If someone believes in creation, so be it. The only real sin is trying to tell someone else that you have some special understanding of the bible.
Romans 14:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions.
2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord,'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 Yet if because of food your brother is grieved, you walk no longer in love. Don't destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Then don't let your good be slandered,
17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then, let us follow after things which make for peace, and things by which we may build one another up.
20 Don't overthrow God's work for food's sake. All things indeed are clean, however it is evil for that man who creates a stumbling block by eating.
21 It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn't judge himself in that which he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.
24 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages,
25 but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
26 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.[/FONT]
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pgp_protector
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furry001
Obedience is better than sacrifice
I'm not sure I understand why what you have quoted above is inconsistencies. Were you there when it was done? If you weren't there, you have absolutely no way of understanding the process or even knowing what order it was created in. Anything other than witness statements from the time or being able to travel back in time to take photos and video film footage of the creation events can enable you to know for sure. Yet the One who was there made a record for us (the Bible). Why not believe it?
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rmwilliamsll
avid reader
Why not believe it?
because the YECists understanding of this chapter is NOT what God is writing. The point is that if Scripture is important and is from God then we need to understand what He is teaching not what we wish it to teach. There is nothing about modern scientific or historical analysis in these verses. It can not but truncated and shoehorned into little boxes called days and ordered and analyzed as if it is a modern scientific description of cosmological first moments, it is not, it is theological cosmogony.
Modern science has as it's primary purpose the description of what happened, in what order, and by what means. This chapter in Genesis is completely unconcerned with this details it is about providence, provisioning, kingdoms and kings, the Sabbath and God. not about how but Whom, not about means but purpose and purposefulness, not about light before lightbearers but the kingdom of light ruled over by the sun and moon.
but i despair of modern readers ever seeing past their modernist historicism and scientism methods, that is why literary and artistic folks seem to understand Genesis 1 so much more readily than most. They intuitively grasp that Genesis 1 is not about science, it is not history, it is this extraordinary presentation of the cosmogony of the world as a work of God with very specific attributes of kingdom and kingship. it is the preamble to the Treaty of the Great King, presented as the providential building of the kingdoms that humanity will rule under God. A claim that God is the ultimate reference and the ultimate lawgiver because He designed the world.
Anything other than witness statements from the time or being able to travel back in time to take photos and video film footage of the creation events can enable you to know for sure. Yet the One who was there made a record for us (the Bible).
it is particularly curious that you use these types of images, for Genesis 1 is not a video tape, is not a record of what happened. ONLY modern thinking which has lost literary imagination and is so caught up in the mundane and physical sees truth as only a video tape of what happened. Sees reallity as nothing more than what you can take a photograph of. Fundamentalism betrays its modern roots in 19thC common sense realism by eliminating everything that is not describable as images, as videos, as photographs. In order to be real, in order to be truth, it must duplicate reality. the physical is so dominate that all other alternatives to scientific and historical truth have be deprecated to myth and story, leaving nothing between truth as science and myth as falsity.
sad. for it misses the whole point God is teaching in Genesis 1 in particular.
because the YECists understanding of this chapter is NOT what God is writing. The point is that if Scripture is important and is from God then we need to understand what He is teaching not what we wish it to teach. There is nothing about modern scientific or historical analysis in these verses. It can not but truncated and shoehorned into little boxes called days and ordered and analyzed as if it is a modern scientific description of cosmological first moments, it is not, it is theological cosmogony.
Modern science has as it's primary purpose the description of what happened, in what order, and by what means. This chapter in Genesis is completely unconcerned with this details it is about providence, provisioning, kingdoms and kings, the Sabbath and God. not about how but Whom, not about means but purpose and purposefulness, not about light before lightbearers but the kingdom of light ruled over by the sun and moon.
but i despair of modern readers ever seeing past their modernist historicism and scientism methods, that is why literary and artistic folks seem to understand Genesis 1 so much more readily than most. They intuitively grasp that Genesis 1 is not about science, it is not history, it is this extraordinary presentation of the cosmogony of the world as a work of God with very specific attributes of kingdom and kingship. it is the preamble to the Treaty of the Great King, presented as the providential building of the kingdoms that humanity will rule under God. A claim that God is the ultimate reference and the ultimate lawgiver because He designed the world.
Anything other than witness statements from the time or being able to travel back in time to take photos and video film footage of the creation events can enable you to know for sure. Yet the One who was there made a record for us (the Bible).
it is particularly curious that you use these types of images, for Genesis 1 is not a video tape, is not a record of what happened. ONLY modern thinking which has lost literary imagination and is so caught up in the mundane and physical sees truth as only a video tape of what happened. Sees reallity as nothing more than what you can take a photograph of. Fundamentalism betrays its modern roots in 19thC common sense realism by eliminating everything that is not describable as images, as videos, as photographs. In order to be real, in order to be truth, it must duplicate reality. the physical is so dominate that all other alternatives to scientific and historical truth have be deprecated to myth and story, leaving nothing between truth as science and myth as falsity.
sad. for it misses the whole point God is teaching in Genesis 1 in particular.
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What happened to the amalekites was genocide, according to the bible they were all killed, men, women, children and babies. Is it ok to slaughter children and babies in war?
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Harlan Norris
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If one does not believe the story of creation.They doubt that we are Gods creation.So, if we are not God's creation,why then must we submit to God?It's always been the same with man.We want to run the show and be our own God.
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Citanul
Well, when exactly do you mean?
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I could turn the question back at you, and ask you if you have any scientific evidence that Genesis 1 is how it really happened? Note that the Biblical account does not qualify as scientific evidence.
As for the evidence you asked for, I'm not as experienced in arguing TE as some others on this forum, but here's one piece. Various dating methods have determined the Earth to be 4.5 billion years old. However, the universe is at least 10 billion years old.
Now if the Genesis 1 account is exactly how it happened (i.e. in 6 24-hour days), then the Earth and the universe would be the same age. So a literal reading does not match the physical evidence.
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