Worship

[Calminian]

You don't agree with very sound christians ?

I agree with them in essential christianity. I agree with their biblical premise that credit for salvation belongs to God alone, and blame for reprobation belongs to man alone. I just disagree that TULIP best supports this premise. It's quite a minor issue, IMO. People get way too excited about it.

 

[Radagast]

... will church help reveal more to me?

I'm sure it will.

I would also recommend reading some of C.S.Lewis' books.

-- Radagast

 

[eoe]

What does fasting do for a person?

Fasting is denial of self.

(Matthew 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Mark 8:34) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Luke 9:23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

3 steps.

Deny yourself.
Pick up a cross.
Follow him.

You deny your own will. You alter your will towards God and away from yourself. (meta - change noia - mind =repent)
You accept the hand God has delt you and the challenges that you are faced with. You deal with them and you don't complain.
You follow after the Christ in your actions.

HERE are 82 texts on fasting from the Orthodox Fathers.

Fasting is one of the methods that God has given us for crucifying our flesh and dying to the world - the passions - the lusts.

If you do decide to fast - get some guidance on it first. Fasting without guidance is pride.

but you are actually agreeing with his calvinistic friend

In some ways yes. I am just telling this fellow loud and clear that he has the choice to do this or to go back and sit on a sofa and drink beer, eat pizza and watch football if he wants to. God is not going to force him to do anything and God respects his decisoin for the good or for the ill.

God is certainly calling but you have to decide to follow him or to follow your own self. IF you respond to the call and reunite yourself with the source of life then you will never die. If you follow your own will you will eventually perish. You have a choice in the matter and God loves us enough to respect our choices, even if they are bad ones.

I do not want to turn this into a debate and I certinly want to focus on that which is profitable for this fellow's soul.

 

[eoe]

I would also recommend reading some of C.S.Lewis' books.

I agree. Mere Christianity is a great place to start.

 

[Pure_Joy]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangiable solutions to the intangaible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

I would say, it depends on the church, I would suggest going to each church in your area, t see them all, to observe to take it. I know that going to church expands my own understanding. Talk to the pastors ask them questions, that is why they should be there.

 

[Bork]

I would say, it depends on the church, I would suggest going to each church in your area, t see them all, to observe to take it. I know that going to church expands my own understanding. Talk to the pastors ask them questions, that is why they should be there.

Way too many churches in waco, lol. And some too looney for me...

I am however looking into finsding a bible study.

 

[FallingWaters]

Baptist churches have a general reputation for putting a lot of emphasis on Bible study, and theologically they are solid. However I think the Baptist view is opposite of the Calvin view on predestination, if that's important to you.

 

[eoe]

Bork - even if it is the only time you ever step foot in an Orthodox Church it is worth going at least once just to see it. The Divine Liturgy is amazing.

We also put a heavy empahsis on Scripture - check out the Daily readings for Orthodox Christians.


There is one near you too..
St. Nicholas Church
Parishes
GOA 617 North 17th Street
Waco, TX 76707
254.754.6519
FrTedWaco@grandecom.net

 

[Calminian]

Baptist churches have a general reputation for putting a lot of emphasis on Bible study, and theologically they are solid.

True. Baptists church are a great place to start looking for a church home.

However I think the Baptist view is opposite of the Calvin view on predestination, if that's important to you.

I don't think this is quite true. While baptist church represent a wide range of theological positions, many are calvinistic. Let's not forget the most famous baptist of all, Charles Haden Spurgeon. Generally, Baptists don't like to call themselves calvinists, but they agree with Calvin on much. There are also baptist churches that strongly appose calvinism. Personally I've never come across any of these but I know they're out there.

Bork, didn't you mention you attended a Baptist college? Do you recall what there perspective was on this?

 

[FallingWaters]

True. Baptists church are a great place to start looking for a church home.

I don't think this is quite true. While baptist church represent a wide range of theological positions, many are calvinistic. Let's not forget the most famous baptist of all, Charles Haden Spurgeon. Generally, Baptists don't like to call themselves calvinists, but they agree with Calvin on much. There are also baptist churches that strongly appose calvinism. Personally I've never come across any of these but I know they're out there.

Bork, didn't you mention you attended a Baptist college? Do you recall what there perspective was on this?

Spurgeon was a Baptist??!! You're kidding!! I love his Morning and Evening Devotional.

I guess I kinda jumped to a conclusion there because one of my favorite radio teachers is Dr. Charles Stanley, and he's a Baptist. Is he a Calvinist, do you know?

The only thing Calvinist I don't agree with is predestination.

My favorite radio theologian is R. C. Sproul he's a Calvinist, and a Presbyterian, I think.

 

[Calminian]

Spurgeon was a Baptist??!! You're kidding!! I love his Morning and Evening Devotional.

Yep!

I guess I kinda jumped to a conclusion there because one of my favorite radio teachers is Dr. Charles Stanley, and he's a Baptist. Is he a Calvinist, do you know?

I've actually listened to Stanley quite a bit over the years, but I honestly don't know much about his position here. My guess is, he leans arminian, but it's a guess at best. I'm also not sure about Southern Baptists in general. I think they split on this issue.

The only thing Calvinist I don't agree with is predestination.

Generally the debate is not over whether predestination is true, but what it was and what it is based on. But nobody really denies it outright.

Calvinists believe individual election is unconditional, not even based on faith. In fact they believe faith itself was predestined along with salvation and glorification.

Some arminians believe individual election was based on God's foreknowledge of future faith. He then predestined future believers to be justified and glorified. But they don't believe that faith was predestined, rather God's foreknowledge of faith was the basis of predestination. Since God transcends time He knows all who will believe beforehand.

Still other arminians believe predestination was general or corporate, and not toward specific individuals. These believe God generally made a decree that all in Christ are destined to be saved. These generally deny eternal security.

My favorite radio theologian is R. C. Sproul he's a Calvinist, and a Presbyterian, I think.

Yep! Sproul is about as calvinistic as the come. D. James Kennedy is also. Examples of theologians that are more arminian in their soteriology would be Norm Geisler and W.L. Craig.

 

[FallingWaters]

Generally the debate is not over whether predestination is true, but what it was and what it is based on. But nobody really denies it outright.

Calvinists believe individual election is unconditional, not even based on faith. In fact they believe faith itself was predestined along with salvation and glorification.

Some arminians believe individual election was based on God's foreknowledge of future faith. He then predestined future believers to be justified and glorified. But they don't believe that faith was predestined, rather God's foreknowledge of faith was the basis of predestination. Since God transcends time He knows all who will believe beforehand.

Still other arminians believe predestination was general or corporate, and not toward specific individuals. These believe God generally made a decree that all in Christ are destined to be saved. These generally deny eternal security.

My beef is the part where they say that God elected some to be saved and only extends grace to those.

I believe God extends grace to all, but most say no.

That's my problem with TULIP... I - irresistible grace. I believe grace is resistable.

Thanks for 'splaining that to me.

 

[flaglady]

Going to church as a first step is 'doing something'. it may not - and hopefully won't - be all you'll ever do by way of action, but it's a good first step. Otherwise you're a 'loose limb' which is contrary to the teachings which state that one should consider oneself part of the 'body of the church' vis

1 Corinthians chapter 12

12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,
24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

 

[Radagast]

I agree. Mere Christianity is a great place to start.

And The Screwtape Letters.

 

[Bork]

And The Screwtape Letters.

I started The Screwtape Letters a while back, it was interesting, but then I got sidetracked.

I have read Mere Christianity, though it was for a class. Maybe I should try again.

 

[Bork]

True. Baptists church are a great place to start looking for a church home.



I don't think this is quite true. While baptist church represent a wide range of theological positions, many are calvinistic. Let's not forget the most famous baptist of all, Charles Haden Spurgeon. Generally, Baptists don't like to call themselves calvinists, but they agree with Calvin on much. There are also baptist churches that strongly appose calvinism. Personally I've never come across any of these but I know they're out there.

Bork, didn't you mention you attended a Baptist college? Do you recall what there perspective was on this?

The college is lenient on most things theologic. In fact only about 14% of the student are baptists... and I get the impression that the faculty follows a similar suit.

I don't know their perspective on calvinism, but most professors I talk to don't typically embrace the irresistable grace...

However, I know quite a few of the presidents have been mason, if that means anything...

 

[Calminian]

My beef is the part where they say that God elected some to be saved and only extends grace to those.

I believe God extends grace to all, but most say no.

That's my problem with TULIP... I - irresistible grace. I believe grace is resistable.

You and me both.

Thanks for 'splaining that to me.

My pleasure.

 

[Calminian]

The college is lenient on most things theologic. In fact only about 14% of the student are baptists... and I get the impression that the faculty follows a similar suit.

I don't know their perspective on calvinism, but most professors I talk to don't typically embrace the irresistable grace...

Baptist churches are really quite diverse. Reformed, arminian, conservative, liberal, you name it.

However, I know quite a few of the presidents have been mason, if that means anything...

Interesting.

 

[Radagast]

I started The Screwtape Letters a while back, it was interesting, but then I got sidetracked.

I have read Mere Christianity, though it was for a class. Maybe I should try again.

The Screwtape Letters is one of the best practical books, while Mere Christianity is the best "what do Christians believe?" book.

 

[Bork]

I'll try to ask him tomorrow, unfortunately a lot of hectic things just came up (my financial aid is having issues :-/)

I asked him about the born again experience today. He compared it to a physical birth, in a physical birth he stated that we have no choice to whom we are born to... similarly to a spiritual birth. I then asked him about the I in TULIP, iressistable grace. His response, that it is resistable, but that god's grace is so great that he could pull men such as even hitler to him (God that is).

Overall, it was another pleasent discussion. His advice was still to go to church, and to realize that we can't always make everything logical. That leading with the heart is not necessarily a poor decision, and that all great events in this world have required faith. He then suggested reading works by Dietric Bonafer. (sp?)

Anyways, have a good weekend.