Worship

[Bork]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangiable solutions to the intangaible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

 

[The Midge]

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

Hopefully we will.

Christ came so that we would know God as a person not just know God as an intellectual concept. Christianity should be a faith of expereince and encounter with God. We can theorise (we call it theology) but all our words cannot describe God adequately.

Jesus said:
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14.

The disciples knew God because they knew Jesus. We can know Jesus because he walked the earth just like us. The Father dwelt in him and worked through him. Jesus went away to send the Holy Spirit so the Father could dwell in us in the same way. It brings us into the Holy of Holies or the presence of God.

The Church fellowship shares our experiences of God with each other to build each other up. We learn to love together and to worship together and learn of God through each others insights and testimony.

He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?"

I'm not sure this is right, or perhaps it is not what your pastor meant.

God does want to work with us, even when we don't want to work with him. Jesus died for us while we we still far off. The price is paid regardless of whether we accept the gift or not. God does not impose His will on but invites us to follow. He wants disciples, lovers and sons not slaves.

 

[Calminian]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangible solutions to the intangible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He also sounds like he's coming from a presuppositional (Van Tillian) point of view. You may want to ask him to confirm that. While many calvinists are presuppositionalists, by no means are all of them. There's another calvinist I really respect named R.C. Sproul, who's more of a classical apologist. Sproul makes a very good case in his book, Classical Apologetics, that Augustine, Luther and Calvin were more classical than presuppositional in their apologetics.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

Yep, I'm pretty sure he's a presup. Basically this is the idea that the world will not make sense unless we first presuppose the God of the Bible for there's no way to reason from creation to God. It's the idea that there is no common ground between the believer and unbeliever. Thus he's telling you to forget reason and start with God.

I myself (and many calvinists I might add) have some difficulties with this. Certainly he's correct to say that your seeking implies the work of the Holy Spirit. Scripture's very clear that no one seeks apart from God's drawing. But I see no evidence that God doesn't use reason in this process. Romans 1 says,

Rom. 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

This seems to suggest that there is common ground between believers and unbelievers.

Presuppositionalism is interesting, but it's also the new kid on the block in church history. It's basically a sophisticated fideism—the idea that reason has no place in spiritual matters.

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

Van Til, the father of this movement, was also very intelligent, but I think wrong (respectfully) on this issue. Ultimately the view seems self defeating. They argue that there is no place for reasoning from man to God, but then they (mere men) use reason to try to persuade you to presuppose God. There seems to be something contradictory about that.

Having said all that, I think going to church would be a great idea and will help much in your searching.

Also keep in mind I'm not expert on all the ins and outs of this view. Perhaps you could take it in and bounce the ideas off us here.

Oh and by the way, if I misread his view............... never mind!

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Jesus is smarter, he says:-
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see (understand) the kingdom of God. . . .:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Ask your Calvinist friend (and yourself) when the disciples were "born again".

I hope he knows but wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he says "well, I think . . .". Since the Fall, man has been confusing Knowledge (Tree of) with actially having the Life (Tree of).

 

[LilLamb219]

Will church reveal more to you, you ask?

It's possible. I guess it depends on which church you attend to tell you the truth. Some churches are filled with God's Word (straight from scriptures found in the Holy Bible) throughout the entire service and it's God's Word that is "effective" in man to bring about conversion. The Holy Spirit works through the Word to teach you and the more of scripture you are introduced to, the more likely it is that you will learn about God, His great mercy, grace and compassion and salvation for you.

 

[ROGER459]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangiable solutions to the intangaible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

Perhaps you should quote to him,

(James 1:26-27) If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
(Jam 1:27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

See what he says then? Thanks, Roger459

 

[Rafael]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangiable solutions to the intangaible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

If God says to get together with others of like faith, you have to consider what that means and decide how to obey.
Some of the most intelligent men I know also seem to put God in a box, telling Him what He is able to do. Knowlege can puff up, and there is always the false humility we are all so prone to. So no matter how smart we are, the simple truth is profound and easily understood; even by a child.
Obey God's word and allow that God is the only one who knows begining from end. Nothing would exist, not even a choice, without God, but that doesn't mean we are not to make choices in life everyday. Yes, if not for God sending His Holy Spirit no man would choose God, but since He did, the choice was and is made available. Seems simple enough - until we start trying to think as God and then it gets complicated with all kinds of scenerios that God doesn't use. Sure, God knows who the wicked are and plans ahead, from the foundations, how even all their evil works will turn out for good; to those who love God and are the called, doing according to the purpose of God's will.
I studied with Calvinists for a long time and learned much; but sometimes saw many truths taken just one step too far - making limitations on God's will. There are many good people among them with much wisdom, but I see God's sovereignty and predestination differently; not only being able to provide a choice, but setting one up from the begining... I allow that God can give choices as part of His overall will that cannot be changed from His plan that was set from the foundations of the universe. Only He can make even that meant for evil turn out for good, and an example of that is what happened at the cross - that which was meant for evil turned into the good of salvation for the world.
Yes, I know there is a Calvinist answer to everything said, but the arguments about God's sovereignty go on and on quite heatedly while the simple things said about the actions of true love; taking care of the poor, visiting the sick, and even sheltering the stranger, often get ignored.
We are never saved by our works, but they are a natural sign that the heart is changed by the eternal things of love and faith. The book of James deals with works and faith.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

Ro 8:28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.

2Pe 1:10 So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away.

Pr 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

De 30:19 "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!

How could God say it was not His will that people perish if no choice was given them?

2Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

Today I talked to a Calvinist, he told me to know god will not be by my works. I understand the christian concept of this. He told me my studies are good, but are simply works and that I am looking for tangiable solutions to the intangaible. He compared it to having a physicist run experiments to find beauty.

He told me that the fact I am asking questions infers that the Holy spirit is working with me... however, to understand more that I should go worship (go to church). He basically said, "Why would god want to work with you, if you don't want to work with him?" I am sure I have butchered his words, but hopefully conveyed his meaning. Anyways, he gave me the impression that by acknowledging God than maybe I might have more revelation. Also, by merely searching in the first place I am already acknowledging...

This individual is very intelligent... in fact I might safely say he is the smartest man I have ever met... and he is a devout christian. It will bring some very interesting conversations...

Anyways,
will church help reveal more to me?

Yes I think it can. For one you can particiapte in Bible study with others. You will be in fellowship with believer, most of whom will be more than willing to talk faith and belief with you. Lastly, you will have real Christians you can go to with questions and problems. You will get to know them personally and will have trust that those of us here can't ever give you because you can't interact with us in a tangible way.

 

[eoe]

I disagree 100% with Calvinism on this. You have to participate of your own free will in order for anything at all to happen. Faith comes not through pondering but through action. Calvinist theology is less than 500 years old. Christianity is almost 2000 years old. If you want to know what Christianity is - read about the early church fathers and what they have to say.

Way of the Ascetics
By Tito Colliander​

Chapter One: ON A RESOLUTE AND SUSTAINED PURPOSE​

IF you wish to save your soul and win eternal life, arise from your lethargy, make the sign of the Cross and say:
In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
Faith comes not through pondering but through action. Not words and speculation but experience teaches us what God is. To let in fresh air we have to open a window; to get tanned we must go out into the sunshine. Achieving faith is no different; we never reach a goal by just sitting in comfort and waiting, say the holy Fathers. Let the Prodigal Son be our example. He arose and came (Luke 15:20).
However weighed down and entangled in earthly fetters you may be, it can never be too late. Not without reason is it written that Abraham was seventy-five when he set forth, and the labourer who comes in the eleventh hour gets the same wages as the one who comes in the first.
Nor can it be too early. A forest fire cannot be put out too soon; would you see your soul ravaged and charred?
In baptism you received the command to wage the invisible warfare against the enemies of your soul; take it up now. Long enough have you dallied; sunk in indifference and laziness you have let much valuable time go to waste. Therefore you must begin again from the beginning: for you have let the purity you received in baptism be sullied in dire fashion.
Arise, then; but do so at once, without delay. Do not defer your purpose till "tonight" or "tomorrow" or "later, when I have finished what I have to do just now." The interval may be fatal.
No, this moment, the instant you make your resolution, you will show by your action that you have taken leave of your old self and have now begun a new life, with a new destination and a new way of living. Arise, therefore, without fear and say: Lord, let me begin now. Help me! For what you need above all is God's help. . Hold fast to your purpose and do not look back. We have been given a warning example in Lot's wife, who was turned into a pillar of salt when she looked back (Genesis 19:26). You have cast off your old humanity; let the rags lie. Like Abraham, you have heard the voice of the Lord: Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, into a land that I will show thee (Genesis 12:1). Towards that land hereafter you must direct all your attention.


Of course you yourself are demonstrating this yourself. Will going to church help? It probably will - it is ACTION of your own FREE WILL.

 

[FallingWaters]

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13

​

 

[BarbB]

I agree with your acquaintance. An intellectual search will take you far, but only so far. There comes a point when you must make at least a small leap. I made the leap not just by attending church, but by singing hymns and songs and worshipping. Church continued teaching me (and still does ). But worship is something else. I truly don't know how to describe the intimacy that develops between you and God. Hmmmm....

Thank you, Lord!

 

[eoe]

I'll say it again. You can not know God with your intellect. You can only know God with your heart.

I made the leap not just by attending church, but by singing hymns and songs and worshipping.

By taking action.

If you want faith take action. Sing a song, go and feed the homeless. Volunteer for something. Do something selfless. Fast. Pray. DO something.

 

[BarbB]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eoe again.

Ratz!
​

 

[Bork]

I'll say it again. You can not know God with your intellect. You can only know God with your heart.

By taking action.

If you want faith take action. Sing a song, go and feed the homeless. Volunteer for something. Do something selfless. Fast. Pray. DO something.

What does fasting do for a person?

 

[Calminian]

I'll say it again. You can not know God with your intellect. You can only know God with your heart.

By taking action.

If you want faith take action. Sing a song, go and feed the homeless. Volunteer for something. Do something selfless. Fast. Pray. DO something.

I don't know if you realize this, but you are actually agreeing with his calvinistic friend. Fideism goes way beyond reformed theology. The issue is not calvinism at all. The presuppositionalist would give Bork the same exact advise you are.

 

[Calminian]

I don't know if you realize this, but you are actually agreeing with his calvinistic friend. Fideism goes way beyond reformed theology. The issue is not calvinism at all. The presuppositionalist would give Bork the same exact advise you are.

Just to be clear, fideism is actually the newest kid on the block. The early church fathers were all evidential and rational in the apologetics, hence the name, classical apologetics. My initial point was not to criticize calvinism at all. Fideism, the idea that reason is of no value in spiritual matters—an idea foreign to the Bible and historical theology.

Regarding calvinism, personally I have no problem with it. I don't agree with it, but they tend to be very sound christians and their historical contributions to the gospel are unparalleled (IMO).

 

[FallingWaters]

What does fasting do for a person?

Fasting denies your flesh what it wants and strenthens your spirit, if coupled with prayer.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. ..
Regarding calvinism, personally I have no problem with it. I don't agree with it, but they tend to be very sound christians

You don't agree with very sound christians ?

Lets's see what Bork's Calvinist friend says about the born again experience of the disciples . . .

 

[Bork]

You don't agree with very sound christians ?

Lets's see what Bork's Calvinist friend says about the born again experience of the disciples . . .

I'll try to ask him tomorrow, unfortunately a lot of hectic things just came up (my financial aid is having issues :-/)

 

[FallingWaters]

I'll try to ask him tomorrow, unfortunately a lot of hectic things just came up (my financial aid is having issues :-/)

I pray that you would have peace concerning your financial aid and all the details would get worked out quickly and smoothly. (I know what a frustration it can be.)