Ark Building

[FallingWaters]

I've done a little bit of research on the book of Jasher. It's referred to in the Bible in the story about the day the sun didn't go down on Joshua.

Here's a quote written by someone who thinks the Book of Jasher should not be considered heresy, and be included in the Bible:
"" Jasher was the personal staff-bearer to Moses, and the writings attributed to him are of enormous significance. The accounts relate to the Israelite sojourn in Egypt and tell of their exodus into Canaan. But they differ considerably from the version of the story that we know today. They explain that it was not Moses, but Miriam who was the spiritual leader of the tribes who crossed the Red Sea to Mount Sinai.

At that time, the Jews had never heard of Jehovah; they worshipped the goddess Asherah and their spiritual leaders were largely female. Indeed, Miriam posed such a problem for Moses in his attempt to create a new environment of male dominance that he imprisoned her, whereupon the Israelites rose up against Moses to secure Miriam's release. This is in the book of Jasher, but it is not in the Bible.""

Bloodline of the Holy Grail - Part I

I don't personally trust the Book of Jasher.

 

[ReiToei]

So where did all the animals fit into a boat that size, and all the supplies?

Also how did he get the Kangaroos and the Koalas over from Australia?

 

[FallingWaters]

So where did all the animals fit into a boat that size, and all the supplies?

Also how did he get the Kangaroos and the Koalas over from Australia?

Sorry. You have to start a new thread if you want to know the answer to that. Start it in the Creationism sub-forum if you want to know what Creationists think.

BTW, welcome to CF.

 

[LoG]

Bloodline of the Holy Grail - Part I

I don't personally trust the Book of Jasher.

The version of the Book of Jasher, your reference is quoting from would appear to be the one that has been determined to be forgery. The info on Miriam that you are quoting is not in the version that I have.

Here is an online copy of the Book of Jasher that I took the information from.

 

[FallingWaters]

The version of the Book of Jasher, your reference is quoting from would appear to be the one that has been determined to be forgery. The info on Miriam that you are quoting is not in the version that I have.

Here is an online copy of the Book of Jasher that I took the information from.

Ah, thank you. I briefly read some of chapter 1 and chapter 5. I feel more comfortable not trusting something that Bible scholars much more learned than me did not trust.

I don't like where it accuses God of making the serpernt.
I don't like where it says Adam and Eve had 3 daughters.
I really didn't like where it said Noah refrained from marrying for a time.
I don't like where it says that Methuselah was only 960 when he died.

 

[Floodnut]

. . . in British naval dockyards (a little more sophisticated than having Noah's family doing the work I suspect.) TRUNCATED

I don't know who was more "sophisticated." The generation of Noah may have been more high-powered intellectually. Great civilizations arose like mushrooms overnight immediately after the flood (Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, Chinese, Indus Valley, Sumerians, Eyptians, Phonecians, Minoans, etc.), so why would we think that in Noah's time they were any less sophisticated? We should not sucumb to uniformitarian notions that man has been gradually evolving into our present state of "high sophistication and intelligence."
My flood model suggests a highly intelligent pre-flood society, with astounding native genius, the same genius that shortly after the flood produced such acheivements as Inca structures, the boomerang, and the pyramids. Imagine a world full of people like the character in the movie "Phenomenon" with John Travoilta, and imagine the concourse these brilliant people were able to have with each other since they lived beyond 800 years. Comparatively it would be like Isaac Newton being able to converse with Einstein and Michalangelo and Rembrant and Faraday, and Werner von Braun.
So, the studies quoted suggested that Noah and his three sons could have done it in 60+ years, and so it should be certainly seen as feasible for a team of worldlings under Noah's direction to be able to complete it in less than 100 years.
So, this is about the intellectual capacity and the skill of the builders. It was easily well within their means.

 

[FallingWaters]

... So, the studies quoted suggested that Noah and his three sons could have done it in 60+ years, and so it should be certainly seen as feasible for a team of worldlings under Noah's direction to be able to complete it in less than 100 years.
So, this is about the intellectual capacity and the skill of the builders. It was easily well within their means.

...you lost me... what studies are you referring to that suggest they could have built it in 60+ years?

 

[FallingWaters]

Stats on the construction of HMS Victory:

Keel laid down in 1759, timber left to 'season' for 3 years.

Work recommenced in 1763, vessel was launched in 1765.

That's 3 years sessoning, followed by 2 years construction - in British naval dockyards (a little more sophisticated than having Noah's family doing the work I suspect.)

She's a lot smaller though:

Length 227 ft
Beam 51 ft
Draught 28 ft

So how many man-hours was that? Do you have any way of finding out? Or approximating it?

 

[Floodnut]

...you lost me... what studies are you referring to that suggest they could have built it in 60+ years?

There was a link to this article, which shows the math:
How Could Noah Have Built the Ark All by Himself? (#136)
by John Morris, Ph.D. You can read it at http://icr.org/article/765/

Detractors attempt to reject the ark story by insisting that Noah did all the work by himself, and that the project would have been impossible in a lifetime. But when we look at the biblical account and see that he had as much as 120 years, and that he may have had the help of his sons, it is a different story. His sons began to enter the picture when he was 500, and probably could begin to help within 10 or 15 years of their respecitive births.
Morris says it could have been done in 65 years with just these 4 workers alone.
Western pioneers and ranchers built cabins, sheds, and barns in a season, on their own, or with just the help of a few family members, taking down trees and rough hewing the timbers. It was doable.
So, without posting the entire article, just allow me to quote the conclusion:

An experienced crew of four could have installed, we assume, an average of 15 cubic feet of wood per day. If anything, this estimate seems low, but this is the worst case!

15 ft x 6 days x 52 wks = 4,680 ft3/year​

It's now easy to calculate how long it would have taken.
0.304 x 106 ft3= 65 years4,680 ft3/year Sixty-five years under this worst case scenario! A big job, yes, but Noah was a faithful man, and accomplished the task. As we see, even simple calculations can enhance our faith in God's Word.
​

 

[Floodnut]

Yesterday, the idea popped into my head that perhaps the trees of gopherwood that Noah needed were already on land that he owned. . . . TRUNCATED

I always imagined, since he was called to build it that he had been provided with the means. That is, either he had control over vast tracts of land, that he lived near where his family had lived for centuries, and/or even if he didn't "own" the trees, he had the means to obtain the timbers and other materials.
I don't know if they used money then, but he had something to trade to obtain the materials if he didn't already own them.
The Scripture declares that Noah was gifted in easing the labor of men's hands (Genesis 5:29). Perhaps he was an inventive genius and a consultant who came up with labor-saving techniques and devices to the benefit of others. God chose him because he alone was righteous, but in chosing him, God gave him the special capacities and innate ability to accomplish the task.

 

[Floodnut]

Interesting -- I was actually speculating in the opposite direction -- that satanic corruption of the gene pool led to giants which was reflected in the larger cubit.

Gen 6 (NKJV)
4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then *the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

I have seen photographs of human femur fossils that are so huge, they would have reprented persons who were 13 feet in height. Since a cubit is based on the length of the arm from elbow to tip of middle finger, giant-based cubits could have been upwards of 2 feet in length.

By the standard cubit, Goliath, AFTER the flood was 10'2'' tall. He was a descendent of Noah. The entire corrupt gene pool was wiped out in the flood. I can't accept the notion that Noah's wife, or his sons' wives had the demonic corruption. They did not take the corruption on the ark with them.

When we speak of the corruption of the fall, we are talking about how the human race has spiraled downward in a degenerative collapse due to the multiplied effects of sin. We are saying that humans have not evolved and improved, but we have gotten weaker, dumber, more prone to disease and mental illness, emotional instability, delinquincy, and depravity.

Humans, after the flood, began to have shorter and shorter life-spans. By the time of Abraham, Job, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses people were no longer living into the 500+ range, but lifespans were just over 100 years, and then by the time of the Psalms it was more like 70. That is what is meant by the degeneration of the gene pool.

Another result of the degeneration was weakness and generally shorter stature. So men were of slightly smaller stature and the cubit changed from 21.5 inches down to about 18 inches. But the royal cubit remained at the old pre-flood standard of 21.5 inches.

 

[Floodnut]

Book of Jasher Chapter 5:34

34 In his five hundred and ninety-fifth year Noah commenced to make the ark, and he made the ark in five years, as the Lord had commanded.

Extra-biblical traditions are interesting, but not authoritative. As a Christian forum we should continue to hold to the inspired canon, long recognized by all of the Chruch, from east to west, Roman, and Protestant.
Saving this thread for the discussion of the construction of the ark, and the question of the canon, may I suggest that the question of the Book of Jasher (as well as Enoch) be taken to an appropriate forum.

 

[Floodnut]

So where did all the animals fit into a boat that size, and all the supplies?

Also how did he get the Kangaroos and the Koalas over from Australia?

I reported this post as being contentious about the event of the flood.
It is appropriate to consider as part of the ark-building question the number of animals taken on board, and the space for the supplies.
Whitcomb shows that it had the capacity of 522 modern railroad box cars, and that all the animals (only air-breathing land animals) could have been housed on one story, and the food on another story. Noah and the family could have been on the third story with a basketball court, tennis court, and an olympic-sized pool along with their spacious living quarters.
Noah didn't bring the animals from Australia, but the earth was one land mass, and God brought the animals to Noah by a miraculous migration of the chosen pairs, according to the Scripture. Some animals were taken by Noah, but this would refer to his own domesticate stock I would think.
The question of koalas and marsupials seems to be directed at disputing whether the biblical event occured, so start a new thread if you want to discuss that.
As to the number of animals on the ark, we are talking about biblical kinds capable of reproducing together. So every breed of dog was not taken, just a single pair out of which all modern dogs have descended. Likewise with cats and rats and elephants. Woodmorappe and Morris have postulated like 20,000 or so, I forget the exact numbers. Remember also that the average size is less than that of a small sheep, and that the animals were housed in "ROOMS" with in the ark. The Hebrew word for "room" is everywhere else in Scripture translated as "NEST" and refers to a small and confining, but comfortable place for sleeping.

 

[Floodnut]

Ah, thank you. I briefly read some of chapter 1 and chapter 5. I feel more comfortable not trusting something that Bible scholars much more learned than me did not trust.

I don't like where it accuses God of making the serpernt.
I don't like where it says Adam and Eve had 3 daughters.
I really didn't like where it said Noah refrained from marrying for a time.
I don't like where it says that Methuselah was only 960 when he died.

Not only do Bible scholars not trust it, neither did the Jews who declared what they recognized as canonical, nor the writers of the New Testament, who never quoted as "Scripture" any of the non-canonical books. But leaving the dispute about the canon to another thread in another location, let us consider the Creation of the Serpent.
Regardless of what Jasher says, GOD did create all things, including the serpent (more subtle than all the beasts of the field which the LORD God had made --Genesis 3:1), and the Scirpture says that Lucifer was Created. All that is was created by God. But iniquity was chosen by Lucifer.
Adam and Eve DID have daughters, plural, so that means at least TWO, but why not three or thirteen? We don't know how many (Genesis 5:4).
It is rather curious that in a fruitful age that Noah had NO CHILDREN until he was 500 years of age. What would be the problem if he had refrained from marriage because of the evil of his age? I don't know. The Scripture is silent as to marriage, but it does say no kids till he was 500.
And 960 is wrong, as you noted. Methuselah was 969 when he died, and when he died it was sent forth (so is the meaning of his name). He died in the year that the Flood came, not in the flood, since he was a godly man and a prophet.

 

[FallingWaters]

It is rather curious that in a fruitful age that Noah had NO CHILDREN until he was 500 years of age. What would be the problem if he had refrained from marriage because of the evil of his age? I don't know. The Scripture is silent as to marriage, but it does say no kids till he was 500.

I just didn't like the way remaining childless on purpose made Noah appear to be rebellious- like the people at the tower of Babel. They were disobeying a direct command generally distributed to all people.

The command to be fruitful and multiply was a long-standing command. I don't see how God would have seen Noah as a righteous man if he was rebellious in that command. It just "bothered" me.

 

[laptoppop]

By the standard cubit, Goliath, AFTER the flood was 10'2'' tall. He was a descendent of Noah. The entire corrupt gene pool was wiped out in the flood. I can't accept the notion that Noah's wife, or his sons' wives had the demonic corruption. They did not take the corruption on the ark with them.

When we speak of the corruption of the fall, we are talking about how the human race has spiraled downward in a degenerative collapse due to the multiplied effects of sin. We are saying that humans have not evolved and improved, but we have gotten weaker, dumber, more prone to disease and mental illness, emotional instability, delinquincy, and depravity.

Humans, after the flood, began to have shorter and shorter life-spans. By the time of Abraham, Job, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses people were no longer living into the 500+ range, but lifespans were just over 100 years, and then by the time of the Psalms it was more like 70. That is what is meant by the degeneration of the gene pool.

Another result of the degeneration was weakness and generally shorter stature. So men were of slightly smaller stature and the cubit changed from 21.5 inches down to about 18 inches. But the royal cubit remained at the old pre-flood standard of 21.5 inches.

I agree with all of this. Noah and his family had no genetic corruption. If this theory is true, the rest of mankind did -- i.e. Satan was very successful with this practice. I also agree with genetic changes after the flood. I wonder if there were particular protection from genetic corruption before the flood, such as cosmic ray protection from water up above, either in vapor form, or possibly rings of ice.

OTOH, this does not mean there was not additional corruption after the flood. If something had worked well for Satan before, why would he stop? While I think the primary reason for God asking the Children of Israel to exterminate the people who were in the land after the exodus was punishment for totally abhorrent practices, it is also possible that there was additional genetic issues in the land - i.e. the giants that the spies saw, and of course, goliath. That would explain why ALL the people and animals needed to be killed.

Again, however - this is as much speculation as it is scripture -- take it with a HUGE amount of salt!

 

[The Lady Kate]

OTOH, this does not mean there was not additional corruption after the flood. If something had worked well for Satan before, why would he stop? While I think the primary reason for God asking the Children of Israel to exterminate the people who were in the land after the exodus was punishment for totally abhorrent practices, it is also possible that there was additional genetic issues in the land - i.e. the giants that the spies saw, and of course, goliath. That would explain why ALL the people and animals needed to be killed.

Again, however - this is as much speculation as it is scripture -- take it with a HUGE amount of salt!

Mmmm... I like salt.

Of course, it begs the question why God would go to such lengths to wipe out corruption, but ignore its source. Why just treat symptoms when you can cure the disease?

 

[The Lady Kate]

At first glance, I didn't have any problem with Noah hiring other folks around him to do some of the work -- and indeed, maybe he bought the wood all finished, for example. On the other hand, the other folks were desperately wicked and may not have been willing to help -- or maybe they were quite willing to play along with the crazy guy as long as he paid them.

What makes me curious is that if the hired help wasn't corrupt and wicked, and actually did help Noah fulfill God's wishes, why didn't any of them get at least an invite onto the ark itself?

 

[Floodnut]

I just didn't like the way remaining childless on purpose made Noah appear to be rebellious- like the people at the tower of Babel. They were disobeying a direct command generally distributed to all people.

The command to be fruitful and multiply was a long-standing command. I don't see how God would have seen Noah as a righteous man if he was rebellious in that command. It just "bothered" me.

This is aside from the topic at hand, but I am curious, and I have often pondered this myself: Why did Noah have NO CHILDREN until he was 500 years old? Not all people are called to be married, like Paul and a few of the other prophets of Scripture. And perhaps Noah felt that he was called to be on his own as a prophet because of the evil times. But then God told him that it was now time to take a wife, and he trusted God who brought the right woman to him.
Or had he been married all along, for hundreds of years, but God had just not allowed his wife to conceive until just 100 years before the Flood?
I choose not to read the apocryphal literature, neither the gnostic, nor the simple extra-biblical but not inspired writing of ancient times. So I don't know what they have to say about this issue, but I am thinking that their imaginations produced their own versions.

 

[Floodnut]

I agree with all of this. Noah and his family had no genetic corruption. If this theory is true, the rest of mankind did -- i.e. Satan was very successful with this practice.

While they had no genetic corruption in the form of the demonic, yet they did have the normal degenerative effects of the fall of Adam, of sin. Hence their descendants began to have shorter life spans after the flood. And as you note below, there were likely other factors contributing to the shorter lifespans.

I also agree with genetic changes after the flood. I wonder if there were particular protection from genetic corruption before the flood, such as cosmic ray protection from water up above, either in vapor form, or possibly rings of ice.

Many creation scholars are setting aside the canopy theory on scientific grounds and on supposed biblical grounds. I still think there is no reason to reject the canopy. There would have been greater protection from harmful radiation if there had been a canopy. But maybe we can start another thread about the canopy.
Higher airpressure, a different atmosphere and balance of gases (nitrogen, oxygen, carbon-dioxide, etc.) could have been additional factors. Then there is the matter of diet. There may have been foods available then that are now extinct. Or it could be that something as simple as a defect in just one man was passed on to his posterity that caused the decrease in lifespans, i.e. Noah could have passed on the genetics for shorter lifespans to his sons.

OTOH, this does not mean there was not additional corruption after the flood. If something had worked well for Satan before, why would he stop?

It is my opinion that those angels that fell were put under restraint -chains of darkness- after the flood and they are no longer able to go after strange flesh (II Peter 2:4)

While I think the primary reason for God asking the Children of Israel to exterminate the people who were in the land after the exodus was punishment for totally abhorrent practices, it is also possible that there was additional genetic issues in the land - i.e. the giants that the spies saw, and of course, goliath. That would explain why ALL the people and animals needed to be killed.

Again, however - this is as much speculation as it is scripture -- take it with a HUGE amount of salt!

So what got us into this discussion? The question of the size of the cubit. . . If it was larger, it was because people were larger, so proportionately the ark was the same size relative to the size of a man. Each floor was about 2 and 1/2 people tall (15 feet). If animals were bigger they still would have been able to fit in the ark.