• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is Ilahn Ohmar the next Progressive to be primaried?

Good for the Democrats!

Two down - Cori Bush and Mr. Fire Alarm are gone - primaried by their own party members.

Is Ihan next?


Ilhan Omar's Democratic Challenger Sends Warning After Cori Bush Loss


Bush's loss in Missouri on Tuesday to Wesley Bell, the prosecuting attorney for St. Louis County, makes her the second member of the progressive group to lose their seat after Representative Jamaal Bowman earlier this year.​

Trump tells "Never-Vote" voters that they can go back to "not voting" after this

Login to view embedded media
This video is 58 minutes long. Right now, I am listening closely to it in order to find the timestamps for the quote from the OP article. I want to find the timestamps so that I can establish the context around what Trump said concerning Christians and voting.
The context is that after his proposed four years of fixing what Trump views as ballot stuffing, fake ballots, fraud creeping into the voting system that even Obama warned about when he was asked about certain forms of mail-in-voting... he is claiming that this emergency call on all Christians to vote (instead of the normal - stay-at-home-because-politics-is-not-Christian) won't be needed again. Those Christians who wish to just stay out of it will be able to go back to doing what they were doing before (according to Trump).

And of course Trump would be out of position to run anymore at that point anyway.

So then - what the news almost never tells you ...

from: Trump Declines to Back Away From ‘You Don’t Have to Vote Again’ Line
"“I said, vote for me, you’re not going to have to do it ever again. It’s true,” he said. “Because we have to get the vote out. Christians are not known as a big voting group. They don’t vote. And I’m explaining that to them. You never vote. This time, vote. I’ll straighten out the country, you won’t have to vote anymore. I won’t need your vote.”​

Side note:
We saw the significance of that "we don't vote" feature worked out in real life - in the Senate run-off elections in Georgia in 2021. In that case over 420,000 republican voters did not show up for the run-offs, after voting in the primary. And the Senate majority option was then lost - along with some other "consequences" of that Christians-who-never-vote feature.​

The Left wing media idea is "Republicans don't read" and "they can be fooled regarding what what was said" as if Republicans EVER had EVER heard from Trump that he wanted to end all elections (the way the left likes to spin that one).

How many times can the left dupe the public with that sort of "click bate" .. and the public still falls for it??

=================

LIB media spins this as a message to VOTING Christians - telling them voting wont be needed any more after He is in.

INSTEAD what it was in reality - is a message to NEVER-VOTE christians, telling them they can go back to their preferred position of NEVER VOTE after stepping up just this one time of emergency - all-hands-on-deck.

How many Lib media sources told you about the context??

how many corrected any of their wild claims?

Do you expect that to come out to the public in a big way anytime soon?

What do you think??

VP race: JD Vance, Tim Walz both say they want to debate each other

VP race: JD Vance, Tim Walz both say they want to debate each other​

Ohio Sen. JD Vance and Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz may not agree on many issues, but both vice presidential candidates agreed on one thing Tuesday. They want to debate each other.

Vance, former President Donald Trump’s running mate, said he called Walz Tuesday to congratulate him on joining the Democratic ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris.

“I actually called Tim Walz. I left a voicemail,” Vance told reporters. “I didn’t get him, but I just said, ‘Look, congratulations, looking forward to robust conversation and enjoy the ride.’ And maybe he’ll call me back, maybe he won’t.”

During a campaign event in Philadelphia, just hours before Harris and Walz held their first joint rally there, Vance said he would debate Walz once he became the Democratic vice presidential nominee officially.

“I absolutely want to debate Tim Walz," Vance said.

At Tuesday night's rally in Philadelphia, Walz issued a debate challenge to Vance.

“Like all regular people I grew up with in the heartland, J.D. studied at Yale, had his career funded by Silicon Valley billionaires, and then wrote a bestseller trashing that community,” Walz said. "Come on! That's not what Middle America is."

“And I got to tell you, I can’t wait to debate the guy.”

  • Like
Reactions: Vambram

Prepping for WW3/Civil War Recommendations

I'm not a doomsday prepper. Heads up.

However, I feel moved now to begin getting ready for anything.

While I'm not a prepper I have food insecurity issues (personal) and really do have enough food for about a month and a half at all times.

I keep two weeks worth of regular groceries on hand as well as staple items like 20 pounds of rice, 20 pounds of beans and two large jars of peanut butter. (I can make my own bread and such and I keep a good amount of flour on hand etc as well)

I've been excellent with animal husbandry but fail miserably at gardening. If it doesn't grow wild in my area I can't get it to grow...

I gave up on gardening as a result many years ago and the last two years my husband is trying but his green thumb is about like mine, non-existent thus far.

we have propane heat and there's enough in the tank to get us through a year...

What do you suggest I might need to think about.

I'm disabled so being in good enough shape to do things like get up to the spring for water I figure is priority #1.

Priority two is probably try and do things like build a hog pen and a chicken coop for the yard.

Should I try keeping more food?

What am I not thinking about?

  • Locked
No more forgiveness remains

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Tim Walz embellished his military service record

In 2018, the following open letter was written about Tim Walz military service record. You can find the original here.

The Truth About Tim Walz​

Tim Walz has embellished and selectively omitted facts and circumstances of his military career for years.​
We, retired Command Sergeants Major of the Minnesota National Guard, feel it is our duty and responsibility to bring forth the truth as we know it concerning his service record. So, we have put together a timeline of his service post 9/11. To the best of our knowledge, this information is completely true, having been verified by all those who served in positions with first hand knowledge of the facts and circumstances of his service and departure from the Minnesota National Guard. Many of the dates and time frames are from his official discharge document and the reduction order reducing him to Master Sergeant.​
On September 18th, 2001 Tim Walz reenlisted in the Minnesota Army National Guard for six years.​
In early 2003 he was selected to attend the United States Army Sergeants Major Academy. The non-resident course consists of two years of correspondence coursework, followed by a two-week resident phase at Fort Bliss, Texas. When a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer accepts enrollment in the course, they accept three stipulations. First, they will serve for two years after graduation from the academy, or promotion to Sergeant Major or Command Sergeant Major, whichever is later. Second, if they fail the course they may be separated from the military. Third, they will complete the course or be reduced to Master Sergeant without board action. Senior Non-Commissioned Officers initial and sign a Statement of Agreement and Certification upon enrollment. The State Command Sergeant Major or Army National Guard Command Sergeant Major counsels the soldier and certifies that the senior Non-Commissioned Officer understands their responsibilities. These stipulations are put in place because the academy is a college level school, the military invests a lot of taxpayer money in the student. The military needs to ensure they will get the return on investment that the taxpayers deserve.​
In late summer of 2003, First Sergeant Walz deployed with the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion in support of Operation Enduring Freedom to Italy.​
The mission was to augment United States Air Force Europe Security Forces doing base security for six months. In no way were the units or Soldiers of the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion replacing any units or military forces so they could deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan.​
After the unit's return to Minnesota in the spring of 2004, he was selected by high level Command Sergeants Major to serve in the position of the Command Sergeant Major of the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion.​
On August 5th, 2004 he was photographed holding a sign at a protest outside a President Bush campaign rally in southern Minnesota.​
On September 17th, 2004 he was conditionally promoted to Command Sergeant Major. The conditions had been outlined to him when he was counseled and he signed the Statement of Agreement and Certification. If the conditions are not met, the promotion is null and void, like it never happened.​
In early 2005, a warning order was issued to the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion, which included the position he was serving in, to prepare to be mobilized for active duty for a deployment to Iraq. Between the time the warning order was given and his "retirement", he told the Brigade Command Sergeant Major not to worry, that he would be going on the mission. It appears that was a lie.​
On May 16th, 2005 he quit, betraying his country, leaving the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion and its Soldiers hanging; without its senior Non-Commissioned Officer, as the battalion prepared for war. His excuse to other leaders was that he needed to retire in order to run for congress. Which is false, according to a Department of Defense Directive, he could have run and requested permission from the Secretary of Defense before entering active duty; as many reservists have. If he had retired normally and respectfully, you would think he would have ensured his retirement documents were correctly filled out and signed, and that he would have ensured he was reduced to Master Sergeant for dropping out of the academy. Instead he slithered out the door and waited for the paperwork to catch up to him. His official retirement document states, SOLDIER NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE.​
On September 10th, 2005 conditionally promoted Command Sergeant Major Walz was reduced to Master Sergeant. It took a while for the system to catch up to him as it was uncharted territory, literally no one quits in the position he was in, or drops out of the academy. Except him.​
In November of 2005, while the battalion trained for war at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, it received an offer from retired Master Sergeant Walz. He offered to fund raise for the battalion's bus trip home over Christmas that year. The same Soldiers he had abandoned just months before, trying to buy their votes.​
The 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion was deployed for 22 ½ months in 2006-2007. During this time, they were restricted by Army regulations and could not speak out against a candidate for office. In November 2006 he was elected to the House of Representatives. He claims to be the highest-ranking enlisted service member ever to serve in congress. Even though he was conditionally promoted to Command Sergeant Major less than eight months, quit before his obligations were met, and was reduced to Master Sergeant for retirement. Yes, he served at that rank, but was never qualified at that rank, and will receive retirement benefits at one rank below.​
You be the judge.​
On November 1st, 2006, Tom Hagen, Iraq War Veteran, wrote a letter to the editor of the Winona Daily News. Here are a couple of sentences from the letter: But even more disturbing is the fact that Walz quickly retired after learning that his unit -southern Minnesota's 1-125 FA Battalion - would be sent to Iraq. For Tim Walz to abandon his fellow soldiers and quit when they needed experienced leadership most is disheartening. It dishonors those brave American men and women who did answer their nation's call and who continue to serve, fight and unfortunately die in harm's way for us.
Here is part of Tim Walz's response: After completing 20 years of service in 2001, I re-enlisted to serve our country for an additional four years following Sept. 11 and retired the year before my battalion was deployed to Iraq in order to run for Congress.​
According to his official Report of Separation and Record of Service, he reenlisted for six years on September 18th, 2001. However, in his response he says that he re-enlisted for four years, conveniently retiring a year before his battalion was deployed to Iraq. Even if he had re-enlisted for four years following Sept. 11, his retirement date would have been September 18th, 2005. Why then did he "retire" on May 16th, 2005, before his supposed four-year enlistment was up? And he makes it sound like he "retired" a year before his battalion deployed to Iraq; when in reality he knew when he "retired" that the battalion would be deployed to Iraq.​
The bottom line in all of this is gut wrenching and sad to explain. When the nation called, he quit. He failed to complete the United States Army Sergeants Major Academy. He failed to serve for two years following completion of the academy, which he dropped out of. He failed to serve two years after the conditional promotion to Command Sergeant Major. He failed to fulfill the full six years of the enlistment he signed on September 18, 2001. He failed his country. He failed his state. He failed the Minnesota Army National Guard, the 1-125th Field Artillery Battalion, and his fellow Soldiers. And he failed to lead by example. On top of that he failed to uphold the seven Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless-Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.​
Traitorous, fraudulent, and shameful.​
Signed,​
Thomas Behrends​
Command Sergeant Major (Retired)​
78739 320th Ave​
Worthington, MN 56187​
Paul Herr​
Command Sergeant Major (Retired)​
12435 Old Highway 169​
Hibbing, MN 55746​

‘Patently Anti-Religious’: Tim Walz Has History Of Restricting Faith-Based Institutions

‘Patently Anti-Religious’: Tim Walz Has History Of Restricting Faith-Based Institutions​

Democratic vice presidential candidate Tim Walz has faced multiple lawsuits for allegedly infringing on religious liberty during his time as Minnesota governor.

Walz encountered legal challenges for lockdown policies that religious organizations argued were discriminatory, placing stricter requirements on churches than businesses. He also encountered pushback after signing a law that stripped faith-based schools of funding for a program that offers free college credits to high school students.

Walz determined in a May 13, 2020, executive order that retailers would be allowed to reopen at 50% capacity, but left religious gatherings capped at ten people. After Catholic and Lutheran churches in the state announced plans to resume meeting in-person regardless of the governor’s order, he negotiated to allow religious groups to operate at 25% capacity, according to the Star Tribune.

Two churches nevertheless moved forward with their lawsuit over discriminatory treatment. Walz settled in May 2021 after the state’s motion to dismiss was denied, agreeing to treat religious gatherings the same as “the least restricted secular business regulated by the order.”

Three churches backed by the Thomas More Society also filed a lawsuit in August 2020 arguing Walz violated their religious liberties by mandating masks, limiting capacity and requiring social distancing.

“Governor Walz, a former teacher, gets an F in religious liberties,” Thomas More Society special counsel Erick Kaardal said in a press release at the time.

The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld in May Walz’s declaration of a peacetime emergency in response to COVID-19, according to the Upper Midwest Law Center.

Becket senior counsel Diana Thomson called the state’s decision to exclude faith-based schools “patently anti-religious.”

Harris decides on Tim Walz as running mate


Walz emerged from the most accelerated vice presidential search in modern history from a shortlist that included half a dozen Democrats, including Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro and Arizona Sen. Mark Kelly. The vice president held in-person interviews with Walz, Shapiro and Kelly on Sunday.

While Harris and Walz did not enjoy much of a previous relationship, aides said Harris grew increasingly enthused by how Walz genuinely carried himself and found a warm chemistry with him during a final meeting Sunday at her residence at the Naval Observatory. Harris was impressed “by his authenticity,” a person close to the process told CNN.



Granted, none of us are in the DNC strategy meetings that go on behind closed doors, but I question whether or not this is the right move, strategically.

It seems like the areas where Harris is going to have the biggest uphill challenge is in purple state voters, rural voters, and among independent voters. Picking a running mate that's equally unpopular among those groups (or that a large number of people just haven't heard of) doesn't seem like the best move IMO.

Picking a guy who's popular in a very blue state (so blue, that they were literally the only one who didn't vote for Reagan, even California did that year)
1723042817174.png


...seems less advantageous that going with someone like Shapiro.

Although, I think the best choice would've been Andy Beshear

...who was voted one of the most popular Democratic governors in the country, and is able to carry a 60%+ approval rating in the red state of Kentucky (indicating at least some measure of being able to connect with rural conservative-leaning voters)

And this little bit certainly is worth noting:

Is tied with Hawaii Gov. Josh Green as the most popular Democratic governor among voters who also supported former president Donald Trump in 2020, with 41% approving of his job performance Is the most popular Democratic governor among 2020 voters who backed President Joe Biden, with 93% approval


It seems like Andy Beshear would've checked all of the boxes a Democratic candidate looking to take on the GOP could've hoped for.
93% approval among Biden voters
41% approval among Trump voters (which is about as good as you're going to get for a Democratic governor among Trump voters)
60%+ favorability in a quite red state


Did Kamala bet on the wrong horse here? Or am I just missing something?

‘If I’m Good I’m Going to Heaven’—Donald Trump Discusses Religion and His Prayer Life

Former President Donald Trump discussed the importance of religion and his understanding of heaven during a recent interview with Fox News host Laura Ingraham.

Trump, whose personal pastor and spiritual advisor is Paula White, told Ingraham that one of the reasons America has “lost sort of everything” is because “we don’t have religion to the same extent” as we used to.

“It’s just going bad,” Trump said, blaming the Democratic party for the nation’s religious decline. “Democrats were violent and ruthless to religion during COVID.”

Continued below.

Matthew 25:40 - Christ comes to humanity in several disguises

1723024349670.png

And in response, the King shall say to them, "Amen I say to you, whenever you did this for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did it for me."
(Matthew 25:40)

Art can provoke, how does the image above provoke you?

Reluctance to pursue a gift or talent.

Hi, I'm in an awkward situation. It's been discovered that I have a knack for stage comedy (and some impersonations), through my having partaken in the talent show at my church's New Year's Eve Extravaganza.

The issue is I have had scoliosis of the spine for years, which has caused my head to be cocked over to one side. This has also resulted in my having a twitch.
The feedback I got on the video footage of my last performance was great.
However, I felt very uncomfortable about how my head looked being cocked over to one side.

My wife has "warned" me that I had better be obedient and pursue this talent uncondionally, while I am of the mindset that if God really wants me to pursue this, He will remove this issue---that is SO discouraging me from pursuing my talent

Can anyone offer men any sound advice?

God bless.

Harris Campaign Website = Merch Store

I had to see this myself because I thought my coworker was exaggerating.

Screenshot_20240806_195140_Samsung Internet.jpg


There’s a section with glowing bios for her and her new VP....and a section for donations...and a section for volunteers.

And a giant merch store.

For all the guff they've given Trump about the MAGA hat....apparently, they're taking a page from his playbook. This is like the time they painted Joe orange.

Also....why is this campaign still begging for money? She has about 3 months. We've all heard about the record donations that she's gotten....how much of your money could she possibly need to run for 3 months?

I expected her to run on being a non-white, non-man for awhile until she could lay out policy positions....but it's starting to look like she has none. To be fair, Joe didn't really have any either....and I think that's possibly the new direction of the Democratic Party. No policies, no promises, no platform....just vote for whomever they trot out or you're a fascist, racist, misogynistic bigot.
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram

Trump meltdown on Truth Social as Kamala's numbers overtake his!

That Kamabla - she's a piece of work right? Kamabla this and Kamabla that.
Seriously - is Trump OK?
Does he think this is funny?
Clever?

I know he thinks he's a genius - but what are his advisors thinking?
Because this - right here - sounds like he's just pining for the days when he could imagine beating up on a tired old man in a debate.
This writing is not Presidential.
It's not even adult.
It sounds like a drunk teenager jilted at the Prom!
I read this and I'm hearing echoes of Romeo and Juliet.

"Oh Joe Joe - wherefore art thou Joe?"

1723019830178.png

What did they teach you in school , flat or round earth?

I just watched a vid where the guy says that he asked his 90 yr old mother if she thought the earth was round or flat , and she said it was flat , said she learnt that in school.

So I asked an 80 yr old friend of mine the same question , and she said it's flat too , and that that's what they taught her in school. She said if it was round we would fall off you idiot...lol

So I said well when I went to school they taught us the earth was round , and we were both left scratching our heads....:scratch:
So if there is anyone here aged around 80 plus , what did they teach you in school , round or flat earth?

Please let's not make this another flat earth thread , there is enough here already.
I'm more interested in what we were taught at school , and at what point did they cease teaching flat earth to teaching round earth.

My daughter works in aged care and said she would help by asking her elderly customers. Looking forward to the results of that , should be interesting.

Michele Bachmann: Tim Walz is 'as radical as AOC or more'

Michele Bachmann: Tim Walz is 'as radical as AOC or more'​

(Member of Congress served with Kamala's VP pick for years)

Former Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann, now dean of the Robertson School of Government, served with now Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz for years.

And after Kamala Harris tagged Walz as her pick for the Democrat party's nomination for vice president, she spoke out.

"I went to Congress with Tim Walz in 2006 and served with him for 8 years. On the outside, he looks like an awe-shucks, back slapping, nice guy politician, when in fact he is as radical as AOC or more," Bachmann said.

She said, "Because of Tim Walz, more people have moved out of the state than at any other time in Minnesota's history. Last year, $2 billion and 30,000 people left the state of Minnesota." And she noted Walz promoted "the strongest transgender protection bill in the country and the strongest pro-abortion bill in the country."

My family needs prayer pleade

Can you guys please pray for my dad his name is Michael for complete healing and for him to be walking in his healing and being completely obedient to God and that he lives and not dies all the days of his life can you pray for my sister Micah that God will give her a raise in her job that she would get a significant raise and that God heals her and forces her to be obedient and righteous to God all the days of her Life and if you guys can pray for my mom that God heals her body all the days of her life and that she stays completely obedient to God and that she will be completely obedient and righteous and that she lives and not die all the days of her life and can you pray that whole entire prayer for my sister and brothers genesis,zaniah,justice,jolane, jabez,jp,billie, and me and can you pray for my brother zion that God heals him and forces him to be obedient and righteous all the days of his life and that God forces him to the Dr. And that God heals him completely all the days of his life and that God finishes his will in our lives and that God takes all our pain away all the days of our life

Charlie Kirk om Kamala Harris' VP pick

As usual, Charlie Kirk does an amazing job at highlighting everything that Tim Walz has done, and everything that Tim Walz is... and everything that Tim Walz has done here in Minnesota has been disastrous, catastrophic, and has been a blunder for the state of Minnesota.

Charlie Kirk: Everything You Need to Know About Kamala's Minnesota Marxist VP
Login to view embedded media

My bros and sisters who are voting 3rd party, why are you voting 3rd party over Kamala and Trump?

Can you express why you are supporting your third party candidate? What does he/she stand for, what has he/she accomplished that garners your vote over the Democrats and Republicans?

For myself, I may vote 3rd party, cos I am tired of the woke stuff, but also not a fan of the rhetoric from the current Republican party.

American Solidarity Party:

Libertarians:

List of 3rd party candidates:

JD Vance Blurbed a Book Arguing That Progressives are Subhuman


Blurb available here on the “Editorial Reviews” tab:

The word “fascist” gets thrown around a lot in politics, but it’s hard to find a more apt one for “Unhumans,” which came out last month. The book argues that leftists don’t deserve the status of human beings — that they are, as the title says, unhumans — and that they are waging a shadow war against all that is good and decent, which will end in apocalyptic slaughter if they are not stopped. “As they are opposed to humanity itself, they place themselves outside of the category completely, in an entirely new misery-driven subdivision, the unhuman,” write Posobiec and Lisec.

The piece goes on to describe the book’s adulation of Franco, Pinochet, and McCarthy; and quote Vance saying that the US needs a de-Baathafication-like purge to rid us of wokeness.


Other endorsements come from Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump Jr., a key figure in his father’s presidential campaign. The foreword is by Stephen Bannon, Donald Trump’s former chief strategist.

Is Christianity opposed to science?

Ten minutes of video provide a basic answer to the thread's question. The answer is no. Here is the video.
Login to view embedded media
Transcript:
The Catholic Church and Science have had a… tumultuous history,
as the Church is generally afraid of science and persecutes anyone who challenges the
Bible with science. It did so with Hypatia, Galileo, and Giordano Bruno, to name a few.
Or… so the story goes. There’s just one problem: these stories are myths.
While there have definitely been conflicts between individual scientists and the
Church over the years, with some of them experiencing harsh punishments for their work,
the idea that the Church has ever had anything wrong with science in itself is completely false.
What actually happened with these three,
and what can we say about the Church and science today? This is Catholicism in Focus
———
We begin with Hypatia, a fifth century woman known for her work as a neoplatonist philosopher,
astronomer, and mathematician. Although not the first female professor in Alexandria,
she is the earliest for which we have any reasonably well-kept records of her life.
It’s no wonder, then, that modern people have held her up,
not only as a scientist, but as a strong feminist icon.
It’s no wonder that her brutal, unjust death would be remembered so many centuries later.
As the story goes, she was attacked by a mob of Christians, incited by Cyril,
the bishop of Alexandria, because of her philosophical teachings against Christianity.
She was torn limb from limb, scraped to the bone, and then burned. A martyr for philosophy,
the last of the Hellenes, a symbol of Catholic oppression of free thinking.
At least, these are things that were attributed to her in the 19th century,
1500 years after her death. The reality is that she was never perceived as a martyr in her
time because her death had nothing to do with science or religion.
Although a pagan and a philosopher, there appears to be no conflict between
her teaching in Alexandria and Christians prior to this moment. She was well regarded
for her tolerance towards Christians, and even taught them in her school.
There was also nothing fundamentally problematic about her branch of philosophy—neoplatonism was
actually a preferable branch of philosophy at the time for Christians, taken up by key
figures like Origen, Psuedo-Dionysius, and most notably, Augustine of Hippo.
When you’re a pagan on the side of Augustine, the Church is going to like you.
The problem, and what ultimately led to a mob violently ending her life,
was her politics. Historians say that she was well-connected in the political
world and often found herself in league with ambitious and ruthless men. This
would ultimately lead to her demise when she crossed paths with Cyril.
Although canonized a saint, he bears the mark of a very flawed, very violent man,
fraught with controversies. He used force against the Jews in retaliation for persecution,
fought nasty theological battles against the heretic Nestorius, and engaged in a
violent feud against with Prefect Orestes, who represented the moderate camp of Christians.
According to Neoplatonist historian Damascius, this is what led to Hypatia’s demise,
as she was his close friend. Cyril incited a mob against her and she was brutally killed.
Meaning, that her death had nothing to do with science. She was not persecuted for any of her
scientific beliefs—she died because her politics conflicted with a violent man.
Was this man a bishop? Yes. Is that a good thing for the Church? Absolutely not. But
it doesn’t provide a drop of evidence that there is a conflict between the Church and
science. It just shows that some of the people who led the Church were bad men.
In her time, she was not seen as a martyr for science or as someone
in conflict with the Church. This did not appear until the 18th and 19th centuries,
when her story was revived as a powerful symbol of an anti-Catholic scientific movement.
The same can be said about the Giordano Bruno,
the Dominican Friar and priest often regarded as the first martyr for science.
Born in 1548, he was ordained a priest at the age of 24, and spent a number of years studying,
wandering Europe, and publishing works. He was interested not only in science,
but in mathematics, philosophy, poetry, and theories regarding the cosmos. He was
among the first to defend the then-controversial Copernican
model of the Universe, and wrote about his belief in the plurality of worlds.
In 1593, his beliefs caught the attention of the Roman Inquisition,
and he was arrested. After convicted in trial in 1600 he was burnt at the stake as a heretic.
A man supporting a scientific principle we now know to be true
is killed by the Church. Obviously, this is a problem for the Church.
Except, his support of heliocentrism was hardly his biggest concern. Bruno was also a major
advocate against the virgin birth, denied transubstantiation, questioned the miracles
of Jesus, supported pantheism, and possibly even believed in reincarnation and Hermetic occultism.
That is quite the rap sheet for a priest.
Although his support of heliocentrism and plurality of worlds were mentioned at his
trial and certainly played a part in why he was initially questioned,
they were by no means the primary reason he was convicted. He was
condemned for his LONG list of heretical theological beliefs.
It can certainly be argued that the Church used excessive force in punishing heretics—a topic
for another video—but there is simply no argument that Bruno was condemned for being a scientist.
But what about Galileo, the grandaddy of them all, you ask? This was not a priest with unorthodox
beliefs. He didn’t get wrapped up in politics with the wrong people. He was just a scientist
who was condemned, jailed, and tortured for boldly contradicting the Bible, right?
Yes… and no. Galileo’s story is by far the most complicated.
For one thing, the image of Galileo heroically standing up to the Church
in defense of science is just untrue. At no point did he publicly reject Church teaching,
nor did he categorically defend heliocentrism. What brought him before the inquisition was a
book entitled “Dialogue on the Two World Systems” in which three characters discuss
the theories of the universe. One of the characters does defend heliocentrism,
but it is unclear whether Galileo held that position at the time.
In all likelihood, Galileo DID side with heliocentrism but because of the threat
of punishment, he remained silent on the matter. It’s also important
to remember that the best scientists of his day all disagreed with heliocentrism.
Not for biblical reasons, but for scientific ones. The science of the day didn’t support
Galileo, and Galileo didn’t have the evidence to defend his new claims.
It’s also difficult to be a martyr when little was done to him besides censure.
While the story for many years was that he was tortured and jailed by the Inquisition,
the evidence says otherwise. During his trial, he was lodged at the Tuscan
Embassy. After convicted of suspicion of heresy, he was placed under house arrest
at the Archbishop’s residence in Siena, a personal friend. After a few months,
he moved back to his villa near Florence where he spent his remaining years.
With the exception of the three days of interrogation, June 21-24, 1633,
he was housed in luxury. It is not known where he stayed during those days, and it is possible that
he was put in a jail cell, but much more likely that he was lodged in the prosecutor’s apartment.
The likelihood of torture seems even more remote. Court records show that the pope
decreed against torture in his case, and that he was interrogated merely with the
threat of torture on June 21. No record remains of any methods used upon him,
a requirement of inquisitors, and given the fact that he appeared in court on the 22nd,
at an advanced age, strongly suggests that he was not maltreated.
Contrary to common knowledge, Galileo never heroically stood up to the Church
nor was he jailed and tortured for his beliefs. He was silenced,
forced to give up teaching and publishing.
Which, is not insignificant, and the Church has since recognized this. In 1992,
Pope John Paul II praised Galileo’s work and admitted the error of his
contemporary scientists. For a time, their improper elevation of Aristotle’s
philosophy and literal interpretation of scripture clouded their judgment.
Both Church and scientists were simply wrong in the case of Galileo. We unfairly
censured a brilliant scientist, and for that we must do penance.
But notice what we’ve done here in this video. In unpacking these three situations,
we have not exonerated the Church from any wrong doing. Not at all. We have acted harshly along
the way—a bishop incited a mob against someone, a man was burned alive for his theological beliefs,
another was put under house arrest for our mistake. This is not great.
But it’s also not evidence that the Church has a vendetta against science. While each of these
cases involved scientists, the fact that they were scientists had nothing to do with what happened to
them. During Hypatia’s time, Augustine was supporting the same philosophy; during the
time of Giordano and Galileo, the Church was the leading supporter of research in astronomy
and was educating thousands of people in its universities in natural philosophy and physics.
Throughout our history, the Church has not only tolerated the sciences,
it has kept them alive and allowed them to flourish. We can thank Catholic priest Marin
Mersenne for founding the science of acoustics; Bl. Nicolas Steno for the field of geology;
Jesuit priest Angelo Secchi who pioneered the use of spectroscopy
to study stars and developed the first systematic classification; Augustinian friar Gregor Mendel
for his experiments on plant hybridization, earning him the title “Father of Genetics”;
Fr. Georges Lemaître for his proposition of, wait for it, The Big Bang Theory.
You simply can’t have martyrs for science if the Church has never been inherently against science.
Rather, what you have are three people who were the unfortunate victims of powerful,
ill-formed men. You have examples of the Church overstepping her authority and acting
very un-Christ-like. You have individuals, in particular times, acting on their own accord,
against the overall tradition of the Church. We must atone for sins we’ve committed against
Hypatia, Bruno, and Galileo… but calling them what they’re not won’t help anyone. The Church
may have a problem with power, but it does not have a problem with science.

Filter

Forum statistics

Threads
5,875,700
Messages
65,370,209
Members
276,221
Latest member
Irfan Syed