(Re: Does Matthew 24:31 refer to a gathering from heaven only?)
Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the Church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.
(See 1 Thessalonians 3:13 below)
~
(Re: If you think that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 refer to the rapture, then what about Luke 21?)
See Luke 21:27 below.
~
(Re: Was the Church already gathered together, to *Nicaea?)
Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, does not refer to the gathering together of only some leaders of the Church to the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, but to the gathering together of everyone in the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). This gathering together will be in the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
~
(Re: Does the *elect refer to the elected leaders of the Church?)
The "elect" in Matthew 24:31 does not refer only to human-elected leaders of the Church, but to those who have been elected (chosen) by God Himself to obtain salvation, which includes everyone in the Church, of all times (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2).
(See Romans 9:11 below)
~
(Re: Does Matthew 24:31's *elect mean Israel, which will be *pre-wrath raptured?)
The Church is the elect (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2), and the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Also, nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-wrath, as opposed to a Second-Coming, rapture. The post-tribulation, Second-Coming rapture of the Church only as high as the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) will be pre-wrath insofar as it, like the marriage of the Church (Revelation 19:7), will occur before the wrath part of the Second Coming (Revelation 19:15-21). The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture could also be called pre-wrath insofar as it often (mistakenly) asserts that the entire future Tribulation will be God's wrath.
(See 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 11:15 below)
~
(Re: Does not Matthew 24:31 refer to the gathering of Israel prophesied in the Old Testament?)
Then do you agree that Israel can be gathered from heaven (Matthew 24:31)? It can, because... (See the "Tribes" section of Romans 11:17 below)
Also, any parallels of Matthew 24:29-31 to the end-time gathering together of Israel prophesied in the Old Testament do not contradict that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the post-tribulation rapture (gathering together/catching up together) of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
~
(Re: Would angels need to gather resurrected people?)
Whether they "need" to or not, the angels will indeed "gather together" the resurrected Church (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That could be why the resurrected Church's being "caught up" together at that time is in the passive voice (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Also, angels could be needed to guide raptured Christians in places in the sky all around the globe to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus Christ will be.
(See also 1 Thessalonians 3:13 below)
~
(Re: No resurrection?)
Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, future, Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6.
(See the "Resurrection" section of Revelation 19:7 below)
~
(Re: *Eschatology generally, does it save anyone, instead of good, sound doctrine?)
Good, sound doctrine must include eschatological doctrine (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), the ultimate purpose of which does not have to be evangelism, but, as with all other sound doctrine, it shows those who are already Christians what they should do (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
~
(Re: Does eschatology even matter, when we can die at any time?)
See Luke 12:20 below.
~
(Re: Is not there just one, historic *Gospel about justification from sin?)
Yes (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
But the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in its widest sense, includes much more. That is why the first four books of the New Testament are called "the Gospels", and why the Gospel of Mark can say that the Gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the Gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the Gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of the apostle Paul's eschatological teachings, as well as his soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).
(See paragraph 2 of the next section)
~
(Re: But should we spend a *disproportionate amount of time on eschatology?)
The Church in general should not spend a disproportionate amount of time on eschatology alone, but neither should it neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant. For Christians must take heed to every word of the eschatological parts of the Bible (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), just as Christians must take heed to every word of all of the other parts of the Bible (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Also, any ongoing discussion of eschatology will ultimately touch on other areas such as soteriology, ecclesiology, Israelology, etc. For all areas of theology are connected with each other. That is why a mistaken idea in one area can lead to mistaken ideas in other areas.
Also, Christians should not neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant with regard to soteriology, for...
(See "the main" under the "relevant" section of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 (Overview) below)
~
(Re: Would you teach Revelation to new Christians before a solid foundation is laid?)
Revelation is one part of the solid foundation for Christian faith. For that foundation must include every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). The central core of this foundation is the Gospel that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day, to initially save us from hell through our repentance and faith in Him and the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 3:25). This is also the central core of soteriology, the outer core being everything that Christians must do to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
(See paragraph 2 of the prior section)
~
(Re: Can we even know what prophecies mean before they are fulfilled?)
See Luke 24:45 below.
~
(Re: Is this a worldly politics forum, or a Christian eschatology forum?)
The latter, but Biblical Christian eschatology includes the discussion of Biblical prophecies which refer to future events in worldly politics (e.g. Revelation 17:12).
~
(Re: *Pseudo *Ephraem)
(See Amos 5:18 above regarding that verse being quoted in Pseudo Ephraem)
When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he does not mean prior to the Tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the Biblical teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's Tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).
And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the Church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he does not mean prior to Matthew 24's Tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".
So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the future Antichrist and the world's armies by Jesus Christ Himself at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).
~
(Re: *Ice)
Mr. Ice confirms that the document would not be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had truly been written by Ephraem: "The word 'Pseudo' (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem"; "there is little support for Ephraem as the author".
Note that there is no pre-Matthew-24-Tribulation rapture statement in Section 2, as was shown in the section above here. Also, the pre-second-coming-battle rapture statement in Section 2 comes after Section 1's reference to the Matthew 24 Tribulation: "There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come".
But they would be mistaken, just as, for example, preterists are mistaken when they simply read the statement: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation" (Revelation 1:9; the original Greek has a "the" before "tribulation"). For even though the apostle John in the first century AD referred to his being in "the tribulation", he did not mean the (never fulfilled) specific Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but the general tribulation which Christians have always had to go through (Acts 14:22, John 16:33). Just as we are not to read "the tribulation" in Revelation 1:9 as referring to the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, so we are not to read "the tribulation" in Section 2 of Pseudo Ephraem as referring to the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
Section 2 refers to the writer's mistaken belief in the imminence of only the coming of the Antichrist, as the writer mistakenly thought that the first half of the Matthew 24 Tribulation had already happened by his time: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]".
Note that none of those statements mean that the rapture will be before the Tribulation of Matthew 24, or that the rapture will gather the Church into the third heaven. For it is only after the Tribulation of Matthew 24 that the Church will be gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the Church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
The "confusion" (and the "tribulation") referred to in Section 2 is only the "confusion" of the post-Tribulation, Second-Coming battle in Section 10. For the Church will be raptured into the air (and then will be married to Jesus Christ: Revelation 19:7) only right before the temporal judgment of the non-Christian world alive at the post-Tribulation, Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21).
Also, regarding the (mistaken) idea that the entire future Tribulation will be God's judgments...
(See 1 Thessalonians 5:9 below)
Note that Pseudo Ephraem does not have Christians being removed from the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but repeatedly refers to Christians suffering and dying during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic" (Section 4); "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord" (Section 8); "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9). And this is the same as what the Bible shows: the Church will have to go through the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).
~
(Re: *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 29, paragraph 1)
Even though in that passage, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the Church into physical immortality at the post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of the defeat of the future Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", that is, resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies at Jesus' future, Second Coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast": Revelation 19:20), will be the Church of all times (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of trouble which will come upon the future Antichrist and the world's armies at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church of all times will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into physical immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
~
(Re: The point is not whether or not the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is correct, but when it began to be taught)
Then why is Irenaeus being referred to, when even you admit that his view is not pre-tribulation, as that term is used today. To try to present what you consider to be Irenaeus' mid-tribulation view as pre-tribulation is misleading.
~
(Re: *Victorinus)
The quote of a Victorinus rapture at the future Tribulation's sixth seal, and pre-Revelation 15, is not pre-tribulation, unless it can be shown that he denied that the second through fifth seals of Revelation 6 would be part of the Tribulation, and unless it can be shown that he claimed that none of the events of Revelation chapters 8 to 14 could happen before the rapture.
-
Next entry / Prior / Table of Contents
Dec 3, 2018
Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the Church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.
(See 1 Thessalonians 3:13 below)
~
(Re: If you think that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 refer to the rapture, then what about Luke 21?)
See Luke 21:27 below.
~
(Re: Was the Church already gathered together, to *Nicaea?)
Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, does not refer to the gathering together of only some leaders of the Church to the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, but to the gathering together of everyone in the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). This gathering together will be in the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
~
(Re: Does the *elect refer to the elected leaders of the Church?)
The "elect" in Matthew 24:31 does not refer only to human-elected leaders of the Church, but to those who have been elected (chosen) by God Himself to obtain salvation, which includes everyone in the Church, of all times (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2).
(See Romans 9:11 below)
~
(Re: Does Matthew 24:31's *elect mean Israel, which will be *pre-wrath raptured?)
The Church is the elect (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2), and the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Also, nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-wrath, as opposed to a Second-Coming, rapture. The post-tribulation, Second-Coming rapture of the Church only as high as the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) will be pre-wrath insofar as it, like the marriage of the Church (Revelation 19:7), will occur before the wrath part of the Second Coming (Revelation 19:15-21). The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture could also be called pre-wrath insofar as it often (mistakenly) asserts that the entire future Tribulation will be God's wrath.
(See 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 11:15 below)
~
(Re: Does not Matthew 24:31 refer to the gathering of Israel prophesied in the Old Testament?)
Then do you agree that Israel can be gathered from heaven (Matthew 24:31)? It can, because... (See the "Tribes" section of Romans 11:17 below)
Also, any parallels of Matthew 24:29-31 to the end-time gathering together of Israel prophesied in the Old Testament do not contradict that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the post-tribulation rapture (gathering together/catching up together) of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
~
(Re: Would angels need to gather resurrected people?)
Whether they "need" to or not, the angels will indeed "gather together" the resurrected Church (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That could be why the resurrected Church's being "caught up" together at that time is in the passive voice (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Also, angels could be needed to guide raptured Christians in places in the sky all around the globe to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus Christ will be.
(See also 1 Thessalonians 3:13 below)
~
(Re: No resurrection?)
Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, future, Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6.
(See the "Resurrection" section of Revelation 19:7 below)
~
(Re: *Eschatology generally, does it save anyone, instead of good, sound doctrine?)
Good, sound doctrine must include eschatological doctrine (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), the ultimate purpose of which does not have to be evangelism, but, as with all other sound doctrine, it shows those who are already Christians what they should do (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
~
(Re: Does eschatology even matter, when we can die at any time?)
See Luke 12:20 below.
~
(Re: Is not there just one, historic *Gospel about justification from sin?)
Yes (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
But the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in its widest sense, includes much more. That is why the first four books of the New Testament are called "the Gospels", and why the Gospel of Mark can say that the Gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the Gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the Gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of the apostle Paul's eschatological teachings, as well as his soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).
(See paragraph 2 of the next section)
~
(Re: But should we spend a *disproportionate amount of time on eschatology?)
The Church in general should not spend a disproportionate amount of time on eschatology alone, but neither should it neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant. For Christians must take heed to every word of the eschatological parts of the Bible (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), just as Christians must take heed to every word of all of the other parts of the Bible (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Also, any ongoing discussion of eschatology will ultimately touch on other areas such as soteriology, ecclesiology, Israelology, etc. For all areas of theology are connected with each other. That is why a mistaken idea in one area can lead to mistaken ideas in other areas.
Also, Christians should not neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant with regard to soteriology, for...
(See "the main" under the "relevant" section of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 (Overview) below)
~
(Re: Would you teach Revelation to new Christians before a solid foundation is laid?)
Revelation is one part of the solid foundation for Christian faith. For that foundation must include every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). The central core of this foundation is the Gospel that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day, to initially save us from hell through our repentance and faith in Him and the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 3:25). This is also the central core of soteriology, the outer core being everything that Christians must do to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
(See paragraph 2 of the prior section)
~
(Re: Can we even know what prophecies mean before they are fulfilled?)
See Luke 24:45 below.
~
(Re: Is this a worldly politics forum, or a Christian eschatology forum?)
The latter, but Biblical Christian eschatology includes the discussion of Biblical prophecies which refer to future events in worldly politics (e.g. Revelation 17:12).
~
(Re: *Pseudo *Ephraem)
(See Amos 5:18 above regarding that verse being quoted in Pseudo Ephraem)
When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he does not mean prior to the Tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the Biblical teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's Tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).
And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the Church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he does not mean prior to Matthew 24's Tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".
So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the future Antichrist and the world's armies by Jesus Christ Himself at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).
~
(Re: *Ice)
Mr. Ice confirms that the document would not be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had truly been written by Ephraem: "The word 'Pseudo' (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem"; "there is little support for Ephraem as the author".
Note that there is no pre-Matthew-24-Tribulation rapture statement in Section 2, as was shown in the section above here. Also, the pre-second-coming-battle rapture statement in Section 2 comes after Section 1's reference to the Matthew 24 Tribulation: "There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come".
But they would be mistaken, just as, for example, preterists are mistaken when they simply read the statement: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation" (Revelation 1:9; the original Greek has a "the" before "tribulation"). For even though the apostle John in the first century AD referred to his being in "the tribulation", he did not mean the (never fulfilled) specific Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but the general tribulation which Christians have always had to go through (Acts 14:22, John 16:33). Just as we are not to read "the tribulation" in Revelation 1:9 as referring to the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, so we are not to read "the tribulation" in Section 2 of Pseudo Ephraem as referring to the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
Section 2 refers to the writer's mistaken belief in the imminence of only the coming of the Antichrist, as the writer mistakenly thought that the first half of the Matthew 24 Tribulation had already happened by his time: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]".
Note that none of those statements mean that the rapture will be before the Tribulation of Matthew 24, or that the rapture will gather the Church into the third heaven. For it is only after the Tribulation of Matthew 24 that the Church will be gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the Church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
The "confusion" (and the "tribulation") referred to in Section 2 is only the "confusion" of the post-Tribulation, Second-Coming battle in Section 10. For the Church will be raptured into the air (and then will be married to Jesus Christ: Revelation 19:7) only right before the temporal judgment of the non-Christian world alive at the post-Tribulation, Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21).
Also, regarding the (mistaken) idea that the entire future Tribulation will be God's judgments...
(See 1 Thessalonians 5:9 below)
Note that Pseudo Ephraem does not have Christians being removed from the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but repeatedly refers to Christians suffering and dying during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic" (Section 4); "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord" (Section 8); "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9). And this is the same as what the Bible shows: the Church will have to go through the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).
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(Re: *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 29, paragraph 1)
Even though in that passage, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the Church into physical immortality at the post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of the defeat of the future Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", that is, resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal physical bodies at Jesus' future, Second Coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast": Revelation 19:20), will be the Church of all times (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, Second-Coming time of trouble which will come upon the future Antichrist and the world's armies at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church of all times will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into physical immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
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(Re: The point is not whether or not the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is correct, but when it began to be taught)
Then why is Irenaeus being referred to, when even you admit that his view is not pre-tribulation, as that term is used today. To try to present what you consider to be Irenaeus' mid-tribulation view as pre-tribulation is misleading.
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(Re: *Victorinus)
The quote of a Victorinus rapture at the future Tribulation's sixth seal, and pre-Revelation 15, is not pre-tribulation, unless it can be shown that he denied that the second through fifth seals of Revelation 6 would be part of the Tribulation, and unless it can be shown that he claimed that none of the events of Revelation chapters 8 to 14 could happen before the rapture.
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