"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[bbbbbbb]

The Church was not founded by an apostle. It was founded by Christ. I think every Christian understands that. He put Peter in charge after His resurrection.

If you mean Catholic for "every Christian" then you would be correct, but at the risk of denying that any of us who are not Catholics are not Christians. Few of us non-Catholics seriously think that Christ put Peter in charge after His resurrection.

 

[Open Heart]

Of course it makes no sense to even bring Henry VIII into this since he didn't found any church. The church in England was already almost 1500 years old by his day.

Denial denial denial. There was a church IN England, before Henry's day, but the Church OF England was founded by Henry.

 

[concretecamper]

The church in England was already almost 1500 years old by his day.

Of course it was, but the Church in England is not what Henry VIII founded. He found The Church of England. St Thomas More will attest to that!!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Denial denial denial. There was a church IN England, before Henry's day, but the Church OF England was founded by Henry.

Now that we are discussing the founders of national churches, please enlighten us as to who founded the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Antiochan Orthodox Church, to name but three national Churches.

 

[Open Heart]

Now that we are discussing the founders of national churches, please enlighten us as to who founded the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Antiochan Orthodox Church, to name but three national Churches.

They aren't separate churches. They are patriarchates of the same Church. The Church in the East (Orthodox) and the Church in the West are both true churches that can trace their priesthood back to the apostles. We are the Church established by Jesus Christ. We say that we are the two lungs of the Church.

 

[laternonjuror]

The issue was about "founded," was it not? I won't attempt to speak in too much detail for the Lutherans, but most of them have bishops in Apostolic Succession, as do the Anglicans. So, yes, both can trace their churches back to an Apostle.

Of course it makes no sense to even bring Henry VIII into this since he didn't found any church. The church in England was already almost 1500 years old by his day.

Not only that, the Latin Councils, Councils of the Middle Ages, which Rome claims as "Ecumenical" granted that very same, 'Seinte Eglise D'angleterre', ( The Holy Church of the English,) pride of place at the Assemblies in regard to their apostolic provenance.Even after the reformation, the Romanists were claiming S.Joseph of Arimathea as the Apostle to the British.

 

[laternonjuror]

They aren't separate churches. They are patriarchates of the same Church. The Church in the East (Orthodox) and the Church in the West are both true churches that can trace their priesthood back to the apostles. We are the Church established by Jesus Christ. We say that we are the two lungs of the Church.

Madam, Your Church, was the Suburbicarian Church of Rome, with authority round about the City of Rome. Then it spread down south to what is known as the Toe and the three Islands.
There was a patriarchate in the North, but after the political collapse of the Roman Empire the Church in Rome took over the guidance of the Catholics in the North! It became the Suburbicarian Church of Italia!!

It didn't even get to Britain as a ,'Church,' till about the middle of the 19tth, Cent, according to Archbishop Vaughan and ,'Cardinal,'Newman! (There were of course individuals.)

 

[laternonjuror]

Of course it was, but the Church in England is not what Henry VIII founded. He found The Church of England. St Thomas More will attest to that!!

Rubbish!!
there references all over the place and a most important mention is in Baeda's, History Ecclesia Anglicana (English Church,) 700 AD.Also on the front page of the Magna Carta, a mention is made to Ecclesia Anglicana. (Runnymede 1215!).
As regarding Sir Thomas More? He wrote a letter giving his opinion that the Councils were ,above,' the papacy! He was an Anglican, Henry VIII, killed him, for political reasons.
One gets the impression that some people have just got off the Dream Boat.

 

[concretecamper]

One gets the impression that some people have just got off the Dream Boat.

100% agree

 

[Albion]

Of course it was, but the Church in England is not what Henry VIII founded. He found The Church of England.

That's a popular myth in certain circles, all right, but I urge my Roman Catholic friends to give it up. It does nothing to convince us who know better, so it must be only something that you like to hear yourself.

Nevertheless, it's an attack line that's very little different from the "You Catholics worship the Pope!" claim that gets thrown at you by some. We'll all be better off when we abandon such stuff and instead stick to discussing serious areas of disagreement between us.

Now...where were we? Lines of Apostolic Succession in the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and Anglican churches, wasn't it?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The Church was not founded by an apostle. It was founded by Christ. I think every Christian understands that. He put Peter in charge after His resurrection.

I am talking about the physical entity. Christ essentially founded all churches yes. But Paul founded the ones Corinth, Thessalonia, etc. This is what I mean. Christ didn't just drop the churches* out of the sky into the cities. Physical breathing men did this.




*[or households in the case of the early early early churches]

 

[Open Heart]

the Romanists were claiming S.Joseph of Arimathea

You must mean the Catholics.

 

[Albion]

You must mean the Catholics.

No, I think he meant the ones who owed allegiance to the bishop of Rome.

 

[Open Heart]

It didn't even get to Britain as a ,'Church,' till about the middle of the 19tth, Cent, according to Archbishop Wiseman and ,'Cardinal,'Newman! (There were of course individuals.)

Not so. It got to Britain twice. Once quite early, where it developed its own liturgies, etc. During this period, it lost contact with the mainland. Then later contact was reestablished. It is just wrong to say that the Catholic Church didn't exist until the 19th century. My assumption is that you are taking Newman out of context. For example, Henry VIII was a devout Catholic before he established the Church of England.

 

[laternonjuror]

That's a popular myth in certain circles, all right, but I urge my Roman Catholic friends to give it up. It does nothing to convince us who know better, so it must be only something that you like to hear yourself.

Nevertheless, it's an attack line that's very little different from the "You Catholics worship the Pope!" claim that gets thrown at you by some. We'll all be better off when we abandon such stuff and instead stick to discussing serious areas of disagreement between us.

Now...where were we? Lines of Apostolic Succession in the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, and Anglican churches, wasn't it?

I don't know about worshipping the Pope?
But three things I've been told,
1. Anglican Orders'? It is ususual to count our Bishops from S.Augustine of Roman providence, circa: 605AD. Howandever this ignores completely the fact that British Bishops were at the Council of Niceae, in 325. AD.Now it is not likely, that even with the Emperor's invite that non catholic clergy would be allowed to attend and take part.
Usually, we are regaled with lists of Archbishops as though Augustine and Canterbury was the beginning, in fact the primus of the British Church was the Bishop of Caerleon, in Wales. After the Britons decided to adopt Continental Ceremonies at the Saxon's instance the head ship of the Church next moved to S. David's Church in Wales.
After the collapse of the Augustinian Mission, it was decided to keep the Continental form, and virtually the British Church split in three. England, Scotland and Wales.
All through the middle ages the English Catholics, attended the General Councils & Anglican Orders were never queried!
.

 

[laternonjuror]

You must mean the Catholics.

Not so. It got to Britain twice. Once quite early, where it developed its own liturgies, etc. During this period, it lost contact with the mainland. Then later contact was reestablished. It is just wrong to say that the Catholic Church didn't exist until the 19th century. My assumption is that you are taking Newman out of context. For example, Henry VIII was a devout Catholic before he established the Church of England.

It got to Britain Twice!
Indeed Lady, it did and I'm impressed. In our history books, it's known as the Roman Mission! The first ancient attempt to bring your ,'Church,' to Britain.
It went against the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils, which are the Law of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! They prohibit, firmly, one bishop adventuring, in to another Bishop's See!
When they arrived, they were met by a Gallic Bishop and a Christian Queen and offered the use of two Christian Churches. (By the Saxon King.) There was a war of some sorts going on and the King was on the winning side.
After the Monk, Augustine received his Orders from France, (Not Rome,) he applied ,eventually, for a Council, or Conference, and informed the British Bishops he desired to work to gether, to Christianise the Pagans. We already had the Catholic Church and the Church in Saxon areas,was losing ground, with the bishops of York and London, being forced in to exile by the pagans. Our bishops accepted and arrangments were made for a Council in the West, near Bristol. When the British Bishops arrived, they found Augustine sitting down under a tree, which even today is looked upon as bad manners. When they arrived, he didn't stand to greet them and instead of making friends and agreeing work to convert the pagans, he demanded they become carbon copies of himself and his friends. He wanted submission to Rome and never spoke about working together to evangelise the Saxons.
Eventually , S.Dinooth of Bangor Iscoed, (he was the Abbott of the monastery and a theologian.)
handed out a statement from the British Bishops,
" Be it known to you without any ambiguity, that we are all obedient to the Bishop of Rome and to every Christian, to love each in his own order with perfect charity and to aid each one them to become the Sons of God, in thought word and deed. And I know not of any other than this due to him whom ye style pope, nor that he has a claim to be styled Father of Fathers. The aforsaid obedience we are ready to yeild to him and to every christian . Further we are under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Caerleon who is appointed to oversee us and make us keep to the spiritual path."
There were two Councils and the tone was similar in both,with the intruders unable to rise above hectoring about the Pope! Evangelising wasn't mentioned.
There was plenty of planning by the Mission, but in Saxon England, when the King Jumped so did everyone else. When the King died the pagans went back to paganism.
There was one diocese eventually and plans for two provinces!!
But when the Pagans advanced and slaughtered all they could find, especially Christians, the entire Roman Mission ran off to Gaul, or France as they do say!
Only one deacon remained, Deacon James and he worked with the Church in Britain to restore godliness to this Kingdom.
I'll send a brief note tomorrow regarding Newman, the Apostate!







T

 

[Open Heart]

No, I think he meant the ones who owed allegiance to the bishop of Rome.

Yeap. Catholics.

 

[laternonjuror]

Yeap. Catholics.

Dear Lady,
Trust you are well?
"Twenty years ago (1846.) we were a mere collection of individuals : but Pope Pius has brought us together, has given us,'Bishops,' and created out of us a body politic".
(The Pope and the Revolution. Oratory Church Birmingham. England . 1866. P,14.)
John Newman, Cardinal. On the PiusIX, as founder of the Roman Catholic Church in England.

"Ours is a new wave of Christianity from Rome to take the place of Augustine's when it was lost....In this our not being lineally descended from the pre Reformation Church, but derived straight from Rome.
Father Humphrey S.J. Divine Teacher. Pg, 54.)
So much for claims of Continuous Service in Britain.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Dear Lady,
Trust you are well?
"Twenty years ago (1846.) we were a mere collection of individuals : but Pope Pius has brought us together, has given us,'Bishops,' and created out of us a body politic".
(The Pope and the Revolution. Oratory Church Birmingham. England . 1866. P,14.)
John Newman, Cardinal. On the PiusIX, as founder of the Roman Catholic Church in England.

"Ours is a new wave of Christianity from Rome to take the place of Augustine's when it was lost....In this our not being lineally descended from the pre Reformation Church, but derived straight from Rome.
Father Humphrey S.J. Divine Teacher. Pg, 54.)
So much for claims of Continuous Service in Britain.

I am unimpressed. This is from a Catholic priest. What else would one expect?

 

[Rick Otto]

Love me some history.