Why the Demand for Catholic Priest celibacy?

[CaptainToad]

I understood it as saying no more than one wife, meaning one or zero wives. During the 1st century when Christianity was introduced most of the converts who were old and wise enough to be bishops were probably married so having only celibate bishops probably wasn't possible. It wasn't until Christianity had spread enough and enough people were raised as a Christian that the Church had enough candidates that they could choose to only appoint celibate candidates as bishops. I don't know whether that was a good or bad decision because I can see benefits and drawbacks of a celibate priesthood but I don't think it was against God's rules.[/QUOT

Of course its best to be married ti just one woman. But not being married at all is not good for a bishop, not being allowed to marry is even worse. Those people resorted to prostitutes or gay consorts because they had their urges same as other human beings. A satanic scheme to corrupt christianity.

 

[mikpat]

Catholic Teaching—-like it or not,

The Catholic priest is called to be the living image of Jesus Christ (another Alter Christus), the spouse of the Church.

I think it is important that the topic of celibacy for the priesthood in the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, is not one of changing opinions, whims, or any other human circumstances but on the immutable mystery of the "priesthood" and the Church and of Christ Himself.

 

[CaptainToad]

Catholic Teaching—-like it or not,

The Catholic priest is called to be the living image of Jesus Christ (another Alter Christus), the spouse of the Church.

I think it is important that the topic of celibacy for the priesthood in the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, is not one of changing opinions, whims, or any other human circumstances but on the immutable mystery of the "priesthood" and the Church and of Christ Himself.

So saying its a mystery is the answer to all questions and the end of any debate.?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Practically speaking, it ensured priests in ancient and Medieval times didn't set up a corrupt system ensuring only their sons would succeed them. Spiritually speaking, Paul said celibacy is preferable to marriage.

In the Orthodox Church, priests can be married so long as they get married before ordination. We don't want them using their position to shop around for wives. Bishops can't be married, but that's because all our bishops must be tonsured monks.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@Radrook - I was advised once in a debate over this same topic, it was because women were getting pregnant from the priests.

 

[Radrook]

@Radrook - I was advised once in a debate over this same topic, it was because women were getting pregnant from the priests.

I heard about the priests and nuns involved in hanky panky but didn't bring it up for fear of stirring the pot and drawing flak.

Mixed metaphor. : )

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@Radrook - I doubt any religious organization would become it's antithesis on purpose re: forbidding to marry passage in the bible.

 

[Radrook]

@Radrook - I doubt any religious organization would become it's antithesis on purpose re: forbidding to marry passage in the bible.

Please clarify.
If you mean that a religious organization would not purposefully go contrary to its own doctrines -then I have to disagree since there are plenty of biblical doctrines which have been modified to fit into the Apostasy. Some have been cunningly introduced by claiming the sacred tradition privilege or else latching on to the "Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven- excuse. unfortunately, when humans decide to behave in ways they find profitable they will rationalize their behavior in many diverse and seemingly convincing ways.

2 Tim 4:3
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

 

[Galilee63]

Jesus was 'Celibate'.

Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit's Disciples were 'Celibate' - God's Priests in the past and future to be 'Celibate'.

Celibacy without fornication and without marriage to another human being.

"Priests" and "Nuns" married/united in hearts to Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit - our Blessed Holy Trinity - God our Heavenly Father.

All are 'chosen' by Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour God and The Holy Spirit - Nuns and Priests to be 'Celibate'.

Parishioners/Catholics in each Century to pray for them and to support them within The Old Psalter prayed and The Holy Rosary against satan's attacks on their celibacy.

We failed as Catholics each Century - most of us in doing what Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary said to hundreds of Saints each Century warning that in the future satan would be attacking the Catholic Church harshly 'if' The Holy Rosary was not prayed (Jesus stated back then it was the greatest weapon against satan and was admonishing Saint Dominic and other priests to spread its devotion urgently) for certain causes to be prayed. One being for Russia and the end of Communism in which world wide so many prayed it devoutly daily for years and after this it was requested from Jesus and Mother Mary for Catholics to pray The Holy Rosary for the Catholic Church and Priests against satan's attacks.

The same applies with Love from God on "His Earth" the same applies with God's Peace on His Earth, His Love flowing through us for one another, His Mercy and Compassion flowing through us for others, we have to pray for this to 'receive' these things, with His "Our Father's" of which are "Holy Wreaths" going directly to Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's "Hail Mary's" of which are "Holy Wreaths" going directly to our Heavenly Mother Mary of which God knows about and receives from Mother Mary for Her Loving Holy intentions for us all world wide (it can be Children in Africa, Children in India, Children in Orphanages), that Mother Mary and The Saints and Martyrs pray for while receiving our Our Father's and Hail Mary's making it more powerful - and Jesus has explained this to His hundreds of Saint Nuns and Priests here - that our prayers are received with so much gratitude from our Lord Jesus and Mother Mary and are invaluable. This goes imprinted onto our souls storing up our treasures for Heaven, our kind deeds, acts, Merciful acts from our hearts can then be weighed upon God's Holy Golden Scales with Mother Mary Present imploring for souls whom need Her Loving Holy Intercession. Prayers are great sacrifices from hearts here and Jesus Loves our Prayers for the deceased, for the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for His Priests, Ministers, Pastors, Religious and Clergies as much as possible! They are Jesus' Religious all of them with Mother Mary.

Just remember that any Our Father's and Hail Mary's you are able to give to our Lord Jesus for some of these causes and Holy causes while turning to Jesus from Hearts in repentance of sins is storing up Treasures for your souls eternally for the day of judgement and/or the day when Jesus appears here soon on His Earth.

www.catholictradition.org/Classics/secret-rosary.htm

Love your sister in our Lord Jesus Christ and Mother Mary

 

[Galilee63]

Jesus own Holy Words to Saint Faustina - one of His Hundreds of Saints delivered in 600 Holy messages to Saint Faustina in her Polish Convent and Chaplet in the 1930s on His Priests and Religious seeking us to pray His Divine Mercy Novena at 3pm:

First Day:
Today bring to Me ALL MANKIND, ESPECIALLY ALL SINNERS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose very nature it is to have compassion on us and to forgive us, do not look upon our sins but upon our trust which we place in Your infinite goodness. Receive us all into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart, and never let us escape from It. We beg this of You by Your love which unites You to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon all mankind and especially upon poor sinners, all enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion show us Your mercy, that we may praise the omnipotence of Your mercy for ever and ever. Amen.


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Second Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them as through channels My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Most Merciful Jesus, from whom comes all that is good, increase Your grace in men and women consecrated to Your service,* that they may perform worthy works of mercy; and that all who see them may glorify the Father of Mercy who is in heaven.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the company of chosen ones in Your vineyard—upon the souls of priests and religious; and endow them with the strength of Your blessing. For the love of the Heart of Your Son in which they are enfolded, impart to them Your power and light, that they may be able to guide others in the way of salvation and with one voice sing praise to Your boundless mercy for ages without end. Amen.
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Third Day:
Today bring to Me ALL DEVOUT AND FAITHFUL SOULS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. These souls brought Me consolation on the Way of the Cross. They were that drop of consolation in the midst of an ocean of bitterness.

Most Merciful Jesus, from the treasury of Your mercy, You impart Your graces in great abundance to each and all. Receive us into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart and never let us escape from It. We beg this grace of You by that most wonderous love for the heavenly Father with which Your Heart burns so fiercely.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon faithful souls, as upon the inheritance of Your Son. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, grant them Your blessing and surround them with Your constant protection. Thus may they never fail in love or lose the treasure of the holy faith, but rather, with all the hosts of Angels and Saints, may they glorify Your boundless mercy for endless ages. Amen

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Fourth Day:
Today bring to Me THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT YET KNOW ME. I was thinking also of them during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted My Heart. Immerse them in the ocean of My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are the Light of the whole world. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who do not believe in God and of those who as yet do not know You. Let the rays of Your grace enlighten them that they, too, together with us, may extol Your wonderful mercy; and do not let them escape from the abode which is Your Most Compassionate Heart.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who do not believe in You, and of those who as yet do not know You, but who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Draw them to the light of the Gospel. These souls do not know what great happiness it is to love You. Grant that they, too, may extol the generosity of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

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Fifth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAVE SEPARATED THEMSELVES FROM MY CHURCH, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart, that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Most Merciful Jesus, Goodness Itself, You do not refuse light to those who seek it of You. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Church. Draw them by Your light into the unity of the Church, and do not let them escape from the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart; but bring it about that they, too, come to glorify the generosity of Your mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Son's Church, who have squandered Your blessings and misused Your graces by obstinately persisting in their errors. Do not look upon their errors, but upon the love of Your own Son and upon His bitter Passion, which He underwent for their sake, since they, too, are enclosed in His Most Compassionate Heart. Bring it about that they also may glorify Your great mercy for endless ages. Amen.

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Sixth Day:

Today bring to Me THE MEEK AND HUMBLE SOULS AND THE SOULS OF LITTLE CHILDREN, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls most closely resemble My Heart. They strengthened Me during My bitter agony. I saw them as earthly Angels, who will keep vigil at My altars. I pour out upon them whole torrents of grace. Only the humble soul is capable of receiving My grace. I favor humble souls with My confidence.

Most Merciful Jesus, You yourself have said, "Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart." Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart all meek and humble souls and the souls of little children. These souls send all heaven into ecstasy and they are the heavenly Father's favorites. They are a sweet-smelling bouquet before the throne of God; God Himself takes delight in their fragrance. These souls have a permanent abode in Your Most Compassionate Heart, O Jesus, and they unceasingly sing out a hymn of love and mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon meek souls, upon humble souls, and upon little children who are enfolded in the abode which is the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls bear the closest resemblance to Your Son. Their fragrance rises from the earth and reaches Your very throne. Father of mercy and of all goodness, I beg You by the love You bear these souls and by the delight You take in them: Bless the whole world, that all souls together may sing out the praises of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

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Seventh Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ESPECIALLY VENERATE AND GLORIFY MY MERCY, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls sorrowed most over my Passion and entered most deeply into My spirit. They are living images of My Compassionate Heart. These souls will shine with a special brightness in the next life. Not one of them will go into the fire of hell. I shall particularly defend each one of them at the hour of death.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose Heart is Love Itself, receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who particularly extol and venerate the greatness of Your mercy. These souls are mighty with the very power of God Himself. In the midst of all afflictions and adversities they go forward, confident of Your mercy; and united to You, O Jesus, they carry all mankind on their shoulders. These souls will not be judged severely, but Your mercy will embrace them as they depart from this life.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls who glorify and venerate Your greatest attribute, that of Your fathomless mercy, and who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls are a living Gospel; their hands are full of deeds of mercy, and their hearts, overflowing with joy, sing a canticle of mercy to You, O Most High! I beg You O God:

Show them Your mercy according to the hope and trust they have placed in You. Let there be accomplished in them the promise of Jesus, who said to them that during their life, but especially at the hour of death, the souls who will venerate this fathomless mercy of His, He, Himself, will defend as His glory. Amen.

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Eighth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ARE DETAINED IN PURGATORY, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.

Most Merciful Jesus, You Yourself have said that You desire mercy; so I bring into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls in Purgatory, souls who are very dear to You, and yet, who must make retribution to Your justice. May the streams of Blood and Water which gushed forth from Your Heart put out the flames of Purgatory, that there, too, the power of Your mercy may be celebrated.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls suffering in Purgatory, who are enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. I beg You, by the sorrowful Passion of Jesus Your Son, and by all the bitterness with which His most sacred Soul was flooded: Manifest Your mercy to the souls who are under Your just scrutiny. Look upon them in no other way but only through the Wounds of Jesus, Your dearly beloved Son; for we firmly believe that there is no limit to Your goodness and compassion. Amen.

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Ninth Day:
Today bring to Me SOULS WHO HAVE BECOME LUKEWARM, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: 'Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.' For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are Compassion Itself. I bring lukewarm souls into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart. In this fire of Your pure love, let these tepid souls, who, like corpses, filled You with such deep loathing, be once again set aflame. O Most Compassionate Jesus, exercise the omnipotence of Your mercy and draw them into the very ardor of Your love, and bestow upon them the gift of holy love, for nothing is beyond Your power.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon lukewarm souls who are nonetheless enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Father of Mercy, I beg You by the bitter Passion of Your Son and by His three-hour agony on the Cross: Let them, too, glorify the abyss of Your mercy. Amen.

All Saints and Martyrs of whom received Jesus into their hearts and sacrificed in Prayer and sufferings to Jesus for Holy causes and causes knew and spoke about the fact that without Jesus and His Mercy we face God's wrath in judgement. satan tries to pull the wool over our eyes, tries toughening our hearts, distracting us from setting time aside to pray to our Lord Jesus in order to 'receive' Jesus into our hearts and be in Communion with Him, to put so many day to day obstacles in front of us like television, newspapers, the internet, mobiles, telephones, working long hours, sport, holidaying, over imbibing in selfish activities and habits, anything that places a barrier between our Lord Jesus and Mother Mary including the attacks on His Church and God's Universal Church, to cease repenting sins to Jesus, to cease receiving His Blessed Holy Eucharist and Blessed Sacraments where Jesus is Present/Manifested pre-Blessing all of His Sacraments in His Churches with God, The Holy Spirit, His Angels and Saints and Mother Mary Present!

To pray for the cessation of God our Heavenly Father's wrath against His Earth and Children of whom (we) have sinned indescribably against Him

Eternal Father, I offer You The Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world, Amen. - Part of Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet He delivered to Saint Faustina

And Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit have pulled me out of so many crises situations when praying to God our Heavenly Father His above Prayer with all of my Love and Gratitude to my Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One Dear Lord Jesus now and for eternity Amen.

To pray for the conversion of souls returned to Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary of which Jesus Himself said He Hears and Answers every time

O Blood and Water which gushed forth from The Heart of Jesus, as a Fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You" x 3 times while focussing on Jesus' bitter Passion and His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross. Part of Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet He delivered to Saint Faustina

For Pardon and Mercy for people

"My Jesus, Pardon and Mercy through The Merits of Thy Holy Wounds x 10 times" - Jesus Holy Wound Chaplet He delivered to Saint Marie Chambon in France and to Saint Bridget in Sweden with His Holy messages

 

[mikpat]

It's usually a matter of time before the anti-Catholics bring up the nun-priest intimacy thing on these forums. Even some insinuated that convents had cemeteries full of babies from these encounters.
My favorite was the poster, different forum, who posted that the Jesuit missionaries had murdered over a million Indians in South Amarica. Not getting a rise from other posters, a month later he posted that the murder by the Jesuits now resulted in MILLIONS of South American natives…..

Oh well, a writer said——"anti Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice."

 

[mikpat]

Captain Toad——-

The celibacy and continence issue/teaching by the Catholic Church is what I follow but reading the opinions of others who disagree is fine and interesting. Keep the debate going———-some are comically sensational but most are rather sedate………but fine with me.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Please clarify.

@Radrook - People by nature choose to be inconsistent when reading the bible, but the choice is subconscious .. so it is not intentional. It is more related to blindspots.

 

[Albion]

It's usually a matter of time before the anti-Catholics bring up the nun-priest intimacy thing on these forums. Even some insinuated that convents had cemeteries full of babies from these encounters.
My favorite was the poster, different forum, who posted that the Jesuit missionaries had murdered over a million Indians in South Amarica. Not getting a rise from other posters, a month later he posted that the murder by the Jesuits now resulted in MILLIONS of South American natives…..

Oh well, a writer said——"anti Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice."

It would be a mistake to take comfort in the fact that some critics are off-base. Holding onto that feeling will make you think that no criticism can possibly be deserved.

 

[Job8]

Since marriage is not a sin, why were Catholic priests forced into such a precarious situation? Doesn't common sense tell us that most men who feel forced to accept such a situation will have trouble?

Because Catholicism adopted pagan ideas regarding celibacy, monks, asceticism, rosary beads, and all kinds of other claptrap. And common sense goes out the window when false religious ideas are promoted as truth and no one checks if this nonsense is in the Bible.

While it may be true that the single state is reserved for a few, all the apostles were married (according to Paul), Paul may have been a widower, Paul exhorts the younger widows to marry, and Scripture says that marriage is honorable in all. The first mandate given to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.

 

[Vicomte13]

talking like someone "done you wrong" just because you had a change of heart is harder for me to sympathize with.

Well, but here is the thing, Albion.

Catholics believe that there is only one Church, and that the only REAL Church, made by Jesus, is the Catholic Church. Obviously this is a sore point of contention with everybody who isn't a Catholic, but I don't mean to contend that here, just to state a fact that within Catholicism, the Catholic belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only True Church of God is a very important belief, and a pillar of faith for many.

It means that, no matter how angry Catholics become with a particular priest, or bishop, or Pope, the notion of leaving the sacraments, of leaving the Church to go to some "other form" of Christianity is, to the devout Catholic mind, not different than going to be a Muslim, or a Hindu. It is walking out on God and going and doing something that the Catholic knows is not right and is not true.

This Church-centered belief of Catholics means that Catholics do not have the option of leaving the Catholic Church.

To anybody standing outside of the Church, this is just ludicrous, but to Catholics who are devout enough to want to become priests, it's a real, and utter, barrier. Believing Catholics do not have the option of leaving the Catholic Church for another church - that is apostasy, pur et dur.

I've spent some time on that, because it is an aspect that must be clearly understood and accepted as a truth of the Catholic mind, or the rest won't make sense. "No salvation outside of the Church" is still Catholic doctrine. Now, the catechism today explains that that doesn't mean what it sounds like, and holds forth the hope of heaven for those who were born and raised outside of the Church, who never knew or understood the teachings. But for a Catholic to simply walk out of God's One and Only True Church is apostasy. It is walking away from the Sacraments (which are mandatory). The Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church knows, from Catholic teaching, that he is turning his back on the Truth, on God, on Jesus, on the Saints, and quite possibly on a positive outcome in the afterlife.

Lots of Catholics do it, of course, but consider the particular case of Catholics who are devout enough to be drawn to the Catholic priesthood. THAT is a level of devotion and belief that exceeds the lay norm. Men drawn to the priesthood really believe it. They really believe their religion enough to want to minister to it. Many of them feel drawn by God to it. And consider Peter - he WAS drawn by God to it, called by Jesus himself. And he was a married man.

Now, it was Jesus who said that some become eunuchs for the Kingdom, and said let him hear who can. That is well and good, but he still made the married Peter the first Pope. (Again, I say these things unhedged and unapologetically, as a Catholic thinks and believes, with no accomodation at all made to the fact that Protestants and nobody BUT Catholics believe this - we are talking about men who are drawn to the Catholic priesthood - THEY believe these things even more firmly than the Catholic laity, or at least they OUGHT to, because these are Catholic doctrines.)

Now then, the Church itself does not claim that priestly celibacy is a divine commandment. And the Church will point out that among the 22 or 23 Catholic Churches, the Latin Rite is the only one that imposes priestly celibacy as a requirement. But there is more to it than that. Yes, there are 23-odd rites in the Catholic Church, one Latin, 22 Eastern. There is also the Anglican-Use thingie. But the Latin Rite is a full 90% of all of the Church. The Eastern Rites are all associated with local ancient Eastern European or Middle Eastern patriarchates or national churches. The entire New World, all of Sub-Saharan Africa, and all of the Far East, everywhere BUT Eastern Europe and the Middle East (broadly considered) is all under the Latin Rite. Further, the canon law requires that Catholics be baptized into the Latin Rite UNLESS the postulant has a tie with the historical Eastern Rite into which he wants to be baptized. Latin Rite people cannot be rebaptized into the Eastern Rites. So, a Western man has been baptized into the Latin Rite unless his parents happen to be, say Copts, and it is in the Latin Rite that he must stay, for the purposes of ordination to the priesthood. A Latin Rite man cannot, in order to be able to marry, simply move over to an Eastern Rite. Baptized into the Latin Rite, he may only become a member of the Latin Rite clergy - and that requires celibacy.

A Latin Rite man determined to be a married priest could go get himself made an Episcopalian or Anglican minister, and then seek to become a Catholic priest under the Anglican Use thingie that the Church promulgated under Benedict. The problem with this, from the perspective of a devout Catholic mind you, is that such gamesmanship is essentially a lie, a subterfuge by which a man's own personal desire to become a married Catholic priest permits him to lie to the Anglicans that he intends to be their priests, becomes apostate from the Catholic church specifically to go get a priesthood that he himself thinks is counterfeit while he does it, with the intention of abandoning the Anglicans and come back to Catholicism and be a married priest. The sort of conniving, calculated cunning, and the lies to two Churches and two publics required to cold-bloodedly do such a thing are the very antithesis of what a man should be thinking who is seeking the priesthood.

Effectively there is no direct, honest, straightforward way by which a married man, or a man wishing to marry, can become a priest in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (which is 90% of the Church and practically the entire Church of the West). It is only through subterfuge - which is to say lying - that a man could pull it off. It is different when an Anglican Protestant decides that the Catholics are right and comes over. That is an honest conversion. For a Catholic man to premeditatedly go through all of the deceit necessary to become a Catholic priest by duping another religion and then his own is a decidedly less wholesome thing than an honest conversion FROM another religion.

Now then, the devout Latin Catholic man who finds himself called - he believes by God - to the priesthood, but who is also called to marriage, or who is already married - simply has no way to do it. He must choose one or the other. He can legitimately look - with some resentment - on the fact that Peter was married and that Jesus didn't impose celibacy as a requirement for priestly discipleship. But - being Catholic - he will also remember that God endowed Peter and the Apostles, and their heirs through the Apostolic Succession - with the power to loose and to bind, which means (to Catholic), the right to impose rules such as priestly celibacy. He may disagree with the rule, but if he's Catholic enough to want to become a priest for the right reasons, he cannot disagree with the concept of Apostolic Succession and legislative power of the Church to fix such rules. If he did disagree, he'd be a Protestant, not a Catholic.

So, in a sense, the devout Catholic who would be a priest of his own accord, and who perhaps SHOULD be a priest as the world measures such things, is trapped. He CANNOT be a priest if he is married, or if he will not renounce sexuality forever in order to attain it.

He might well ask why it should be that if God chooses a man for the priesthood, the Church should be able to impose an insurmountable rule to prevent it. He is unlikely to accept any answer from the Church (or your answer: "He knew the rules" - he would answer: "But that rule is optional! Why should the Church have made such a rule? It's a bad rule!"). But though he might personally think the reason is bad, if he wants to be a CATHOLIC priest he probably has enough Catholic belief to then recognize his own resistance to the rule as sinful, as it is the Church who is empowered by God to set such rules, so his resistance to the rule is long on ego, but short on rectitude.

Thus the conundrum.

 

[Vicomte13]

The change occurred about a thousand years ago and seems to relate to several different factors. For one, a monastic reform movement that had much influence over the rest of the church had called for priestly commitment and discipline more like monks were supposed to experience. Also, the matter of inheritances, property rights, and so on for families of priests was an issue. And then too, the image of women was not very high at that point in history, with them being seen more like today's Muslims see women, rather than as helpmates or as a man's "better half." (A couple of hundred years later, this had completely reversed and they were seen as pure beings and objects of devotion a la the code of chivalry, courtly love, and all of that.)

There was also the problem of extorted marriage to priests through the secrets learned in the confessional. There was a lot abuse in the 10th Century that gave rise to the reforms of the 11th.

 

[Albion]

So, in a sense, the devout Catholic who would be a priest of his own accord, and who perhaps SHOULD be a priest as the world measures such things, is trapped. He CANNOT be a priest if he is married, or if he will not renounce sexuality forever in order to attain it.

He might well ask why it should be that if God chooses a man for the priesthood, the Church should be able to impose an insurmountable rule to prevent it. He is unlikely to accept any answer from the Church (or your answer: "He knew the rules" - he would answer: "But that rule is optional! Why should the Church have made such a rule? It's a bad rule!"). But though he might personally think the reason is bad, if he wants to be a CATHOLIC priest he probably has enough Catholic belief to then recognize his own resistance to the rule as sinful, as it is the Church who is empowered by God to set such rules, so his resistance to the rule is long.

Thus the conundrum.

First, I agreed with most of what you said there. But then, when I came to the conclusion, I think that you're saying essentially what I said when I wrote that I have a hard time sympathizing with the complaint of Catholic priests who have a change of heart and then insist upon making it seem as though the Church's policy is wrong and must be made right.

Yes, I appreciate that they find themselves in a terrible situation, and I'm willing to agree that they thought they had a real call to the priesthood and that they later felt a genuine and unexpected call to the married life. The only issue is whether or not the Church is wrong for some reason because of their own decisions.

 

[Vicomte13]

First, I agreed with most of what you said there. But then, when I came to the conclusion, I think that you're saying essentially what I said when I wrote that I have a hard time sympathizing with the complaint of Catholic priests who have a change of heart and then insist upon making it seem as though the Church's policy is wrong and must be made right.

Yes, I appreciate that they find themselves in a terrible situation, and I'm willing to agree that they thought they had a real call to the priesthood and that they later felt a genuine and unexpected call to the married life. The only issue is whether or not the Church is wrong for some reason because of their own decisions.

My own view?

The Church was probably right for imposing celibacy as a rule in the 10th Century. There were really terrible abuses.

But in the 20th and 21st Centuries, there are also really terrible abuses, of a completely different nature, and the problems are of a different nature. And the nature of the problems of the 2000s means that the solution to the problems of the 1000s actually exacerbate the problems. The Church should drop the rule.

Until the Church does, Catholics are going to respect it. But there will be fewer and fewer Catholic priests, and the Church will continue to age and wither. The rules of the 1000s are harmful to the Church of the 2000s. If the Church still is being guided by the Holy Spirit, then I expect the leadership will be inspired to change the rule.

Of course the Holy Spirit knows better than I, so if the Church does NOT change the rule, and yet is still surviving and even thriving in the future years, then in my old age I will have to aver that the Church was right all along. Right now, I think that the rule should be changed...which I suppose makes me a "liberal Catholic".

 

[thecolorsblend]

[Jesus] said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.
-- Matthew 19:11-12 (DRA)

Marriage is a calling. A fine one at that. Celibacy is also a calling and an equally fine one. Not everybody is called to be married and not everybody is called to be celibate. God provides graces for both of them.

Roman Catholics are not the only Catholics though. Eastern Catholic priests are permitted to be married. And even some Roman Catholic clergy can be married. Those who can bear marriage should be married. Those who can bear celibacy should be celibate. It's pretty simple, really.