Why the Demand for Catholic Priest celibacy?

[Paidiske]

Ordination vows are not a legal contract, nor is ordination akin to a medical procedure where informed consent must be obtained first.

I think the more appropriate legal principle in ordination would be volenti non fit injuria; that where a person willingly places themselves in a position where they know harm might result, any other party is not at fault.

People who are ordained do not come to it impulsively or in an uninformed way (especially in the Catholic system). The vocation is discerned carefully and tested over many years. And every ordinand knows, long before they get to the laying on of hands, that it doesn't work out for everybody, and that some people suffer as a result of this choice. We choose it anyway, knowing that there is a risk to ourselves in doing so.

I do not think that if, for example, the Catholic church began allowing a new generation of clergy not to take vows of celibacy, that that would void the vows of celibacy of already existing clergy. The church would have to make a separate decision to release those men from those vows, and those men would have to decide for themselves whether they really felt able to accept that, or still felt bound by them.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Do you consider Mormons to be "accurately scripturally informed"?

What I think concerning their vows is irrelevant to how they feel and what they are entitled to do as a consequence if they are suddenly told that they had been misinformed.

That isn't what I asked.

Do you believe they're "properly scripturally informed"?

How about it? Are Mormons "accurately scripturally informed"?

 

[Radrook]

How about it? Are Mormons "accurately scripturally informed"?

That is totally irrelevant to the issue in question. If it is relevant explain how.

 

[Radrook]

Ordination vows are not a legal contract, nor is ordination akin to a medical procedure where informed consent must be obtained first.

I think the more appropriate legal principle in ordination would be volenti non fit injuria; that where a person willingly places themselves in a position where they know harm might result, any other party is not at fault.

People who are ordained do not come to it impulsively or in an uninformed way (especially in the Catholic system). The vocation is discerned carefully and tested over many years. And every ordinand knows, long before they get to the laying on of hands, that it doesn't work out for everybody, and that some people suffer as a result of this choice. We choose it anyway, knowing that there is a risk to ourselves in doing so.

I do not think that if, for example, the Catholic church began allowing a new generation of clergy not to take vows of celibacy, that that would void the vows of celibacy of already existing clergy. The church would have to make a separate decision to release those men from those vows, and those men would have to decide for themselves whether they really felt able to accept that, or still felt bound by them.

You can't hold a person to a vow in which he was either intentionally or unintentionally misinformed. If the Catholic Church officially admits having made serious doctrinal mistake, then those who adhere to the mistake are actually going against the Church's authority. If the Church suddenly declares the Inquisition over and you made a vow to be an inquisitor for life and adhere to that vow-you are going against church guidance and authority. The same is true for any other vows which the church might suddenly pronounce as unscriptural. You need not feel under any further obligation.

 

[thecolorsblend]

That is totally irrelevant to the issue in question. If it is relevant explain how.

I have a follow up question I wish to ask. And anyway, it's a pretty simple question, is it not? Are Mormons "accurately scripturally informed"?

 

[Radrook]

I have a follow up question I wish to ask. And anyway, it's a pretty simple question, is it not? Are Mormons "accurately scripturally informed"?

The Mormons don't restrict themselves to the Bible but have other texts which they also call scripture.

 

[Paidiske]

You can't hold a person to a vow in which he was either intentionally or unintentionally misinformed. If the Catholic Church officially admits having made serious doctrinal mistake, then those who adhere to the mistake are actually going against the Church's authority. If the Church suddenly declares the Inquisition over and you made a vow to be an inquisitor for life and adhere to that vow-you are going against church guidance and authority. The same is true for any other vows which the church might suddenly pronounce as unscriptural. You need not feel under any further obligation.

But can anyone really say that a Catholic ordinand is misinformed? That they didn't know what the "deal" was before saying Yes? I think that's a pretty shaky claim.

This is not a doctrinal issue, and never has been. The Catholic church has always held that things could be other than as they are, but that this is - for this time - the most beneficial arrangement. You and I might disagree with them, but they do actually have the freedom to order their ministry as they see fit.

I don't think the analogy of the Inquisition holds, either. That would be more like the church dissolving the priesthood altogether.

 

[Radrook]

But can anyone really say that a Catholic ordinand is misinformed? That they didn't know what the "deal" was before saying Yes? I think that's a pretty shaky claim.

This is not a doctrinal issue, and never has been. The Catholic church has always held that things could be other than as they are, but that this is - for this time - the most beneficial arrangement. You and I might disagree with them, but they do actually have the freedom to order their ministry as they see fit.

I don't think the analogy of the Inquisition holds, either. That would be more like the church dissolving the priesthood altogether.

As a priest if I felt I had been misinformed? Or if the church tells me that my vows were not really necessary? Then why would I feel obligated to continue along the same line? It just doesn't make any sense.

BTW
It really doesn't matter personally to me what the Catholic priests do with their lives.
Also, I don't see why calling off an Inquisition would mean dissolving the priesthood.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Mormons don't restrict themselves to the Bible but have other texts which they also call scripture.

But are they "accurately scripturally informed" though?

 

[PanDeVida]

Since marriage is not a sin, why were Catholic priests forced into such a precarious situation? Doesn't common sense tell us that most men who feel forced to accept such a situation will have trouble?

Matthew 19: 27Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or WIFE, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

Rad, all the apostles left their wives and those who were not married like John never took a wife. Now does this sound like Catholic priests? Yes! You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail over it.

Rad, the Apostles were not forced into it, neither are the Catholic Priest who are the successors of the Apostles.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Mormons don't restrict themselves to the Bible but have other texts which they also call scripture.

But are they "accurately scripturally informed" though?

I wonder if I'll ever get an answer from Radrook about this...

 

[Radrook]

Matthew 19: 27Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or WIFE, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

Rad, all the apostles left their wives and those who were not married like John never took a wife. Now does this sound like Catholic priests? Yes! You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail over it.

Rad, the Apostles were not forced into it, neither are the Catholic Priest who are the successors of the Apostles.

I am not against any personal decision to remain celibate. In fact, I once made a vow to God to remain celibate for three agonizing years in order to dedicate myself fully to the ministry. What I am awry of is the demand that to be a shepherd of the flock in the ministerial position of priest one MUST remain celibate. Also, I recently read that the original reason why the CC demanded celibacy was to prevent Church property from being inherited by priest descendants. So the church motive was materialistic.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I am not against any personal decision to remain celibate. In fact, I once made a vow to God to remain celibate for three agonizing years in order to dedicate myself fully to the ministry. What I am awry of is the demand that to be a shepherd of the flock in the ministerial position of priest one MUST remain celibate. Also, I recently read that the original reason why the CC demanded celibacy was to prevent Church property from being inherited by priest descendants. So the church motive was materialistic.

Are Mormons "accurately scripturally informed"?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

True enough, but during the "Dark Ages" the way in which ordinary women were seen was at a rather low level, and this seems to have played into the decision to ban marriage for priests in the Western church.

Mary the Mother of Jesus supposedly WAS NEVER MARRIED according to Catholic "TRADITION". SHe was apparent;y Joseph's housekeeper.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Mary the Mother of Jesus supposedly WAS NEVER MARRIED according to Catholic "TRADITION". SHe was apparent;y Joseph's housekeeper.

Golly, where do you get your information??

1655- Christ chose to be born and grow up in the bosom of the holy family of Joseph and Mary.

Seems to me like the Church believes Our Lady was indeed married to Joseph.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The Mormons don't restrict themselves to the Bible but have other texts which they also call scripture.

But are they "accurately scripturally informed" though?

Got any answers for me yet, Radrook?